Plot Manipulation Standards

[Ricsi-viragosi]

Tl;dr: All plot manipulation is part of the plot, as I have already said. "Plot" that is being manipulated in a story is just an in-verse structure.
Assuming its presented as "all thing are part of the plot", the situation is still not different from reality warping v. subjective reality/causality manip/physics manip/etc. One is more versatile while one is more focused, no innate superiority there.
And lastly, "transcendetnial writer" is answered by the last part of my post. That is bringing dimensionality into it, in which case you need to prove which is the superior infinity. Assuming that both abilities are on the same dimensionality, one is not superior to the other.

The bottom-line is that regardless of verse, literally, everything is part of a Plot, not everything is part of "Fate", as it's defined.

And I already addressed that. Plot manipulation is also part of the plot. No fictional being can actually affect the real plot of a story. Which forces you to view the "plot" being manipulated as an in-verse structure.

A character who is acausal, and not affected by fate is still part of the plot.

A character who is claimed to control the plot is part of the plot as well. Again, you can't use actual, real world plot as the thing that characters warp. The plot manipulated is as muhh part of the story as any other structure is.

And yes, there are characters whose Acausality would cover that. So making general carpet claims is bound to be wrong.

The Prisoner's from The Elder Scrolls aren't bound by fate, and their history isn't fully determined... yet the plot still dictates that they definitely did certain things.

Specific exemples do not matter, and as I am aware plot is not canon for ES games. In-fact, since we use Kirk's stuff... that's wrong. "Canon doesn't really exist" is the whole point of C0DA.

Which brings the obvious problems to the forefront. Real world plot is not affected by any being inside of a story, and the plot claimed to be affected is up to whatever rules the writers decide for it. They can make the plot literally a synonim for fate, or make it superior to fate, or make it an infinitely layered structure of "I see those below me as fictional".

Regardless, point should be clear. Nothing affects the real plot. The in-verse meta-abilities are up to the writer in specifics. So, unless the writer gives the specifics, it should not be assumed to be superior.

Obviously, specific single explanations of plot and fate in-verse may vary, but in general, in the strictest definition, Plot is fundamentally transcendent of everything else in a verse. Without a plot a verse doesn't exist, and if it exists it's bound by a plot.

By the strictest definition, plot is "the sequence of events in (a play, novel, film, or similar work)."

And once again, same argument for reality warping. All things are part of reality, and yet we do not treat causality manip through reality warping as > causality manip. Because versatility is not superior to power.

The transcendental writer is covered by the last part of my post. That's bringing dimensionality into it, in which case both sides need to bring feats of which infinity is bigger, nothing standard for that.

A verse can exist without fate, and not every verse has fate. There is a fundamental difference in that sense.

No story has a character truly manipulate the real plot, and the in-verse structure for plot is up to the verse in its specifics.

And again, all things are part of reality. Reality Warping is still not superior to any other hax by default, just a more vague and versatile version.

 

[Planck69]

I feel like many people here can't seem to fathom that the plot being manipulated isn't actually the plot. No character is deciding the author's story for them, so this is just a construct as much as fate.

 

[YungManzi]

Ricisi... Planck.. I hope you guys are not arguing that Plot Manipulation is not really Plot Manipulation because it's not a real world ability..

Edit: Verse equalization means plot manip is plot manip; regardless of if a character can affect the irl plot.

 

[Ricsi-viragosi]

Ricisi... Planck.. I hope you guys are not arguing that Plot Manipulation is not really Plot Manipulation because it's not a real world ability..

Edit: Verse equalization means plot manip is plot manip; regardless of if a character can affect the irl plot.

Verse equal makes it so that plot as it is presented in the story exists with the opponent, unless the oponent's verse also has plot that functions differently.

That means little for this discussion. The same standard applies to fate in fights due to verse equal.

This means little for superiority of the ability over fate manipulation, which is what is being argued. Assuming they are at the same level of dimensionality, there is nothing innately superior in plot manipulation.

Or, do you believe that reality warping trumps the other abilities that are sub-versions of it such as physics or causality manip? If you don't, there is nothing to claim plot is above fate by default. If you do, then that's another argument to be had there.

 

[FinePoint]

Regardless, point should be clear. Nothing affects the real plot. The in-verse meta-abilities are up to the writer in specifics. So, unless the writer gives the specifics, it should not be assumed to be superior.

We have to assume a lot of things on this website, verse equalization being one of them, but regardless... all we're saying is that in a theoretical situation where character A changes something with Reality Warping or Fate Manipulation, and character B changes the same thing with Plot Manipulation, that the Plot Manipulation should take precedent, not that every single interpretation of Fate and Plot are exactly the same in every work.

 

[Ricsi-viragosi]

We have to assume a lot of things on this website, verse equalization being one of them, but regardless... all we're saying is that in a theoretical situation where character A changes something with Reality Warping or Fate Manipulation, and character B changes the same thing with Plot Manipulation, that the Plot Manipulation should take precedent, not that every single interpretation of Fate and Plot are exactly the same in every work.

I understand that is what you are saying. I am disagreeing with it.

The only reason why plot manipulation would be superior to not only fate, but reality warping, would be to assume that a higher dimensional being is forcing the plot to work.

Which, as I said a few times already, is bringing dimensionality into it. If the two abilities are at the same level of dimensionality, you can't use that argument. If the plot manipulation is presented as higher dimensional, you need to compare the two verses and decide which has higher infinity.

 

[Planck69]

Ricisi... Planck.. I hope you guys are not arguing that Plot Manipulation is not really Plot Manipulation because it's not a real world ability..

Edit: Verse equalization means plot manip is plot manip; regardless of if a character can affect the irl plot.

I'm not saying that (how did you even get that?). My main point is that this is manipulating plot as a construct so it wouldn't automatically be superior to every concept that can appear in a story.

TL;DR Of course I agree plot is a thing. That said, it's not necessarily superior to everything else that can exist in a setting.

 

[FinePoint]

Which, as I said a few times already, is bringing dimensionality into it. If the two abilities are at the same level of dimensionality, you can't use that argument. If the plot manipulation is presented as higher dimensional, you need to compare the two verses and decide which has higher infinity.

Plot Manipulation as an ability inherently brings into assumption the idea that reality is fictional, and therefore the idea that there exists a "real world" from which it is perceived as fiction. Reality Warping and Fate manipulation don't have the same luxury. In that sense, if the dimensionality is otherwise the same, then by adding "Plot Manipulation" you imply that there exists at least one dimension above the current one which is considered the "real world", or more useful in this case: at least one more dimension than your opponent.

 

[Ricsi-viragosi]

Plot Manipulation as an ability inherently brings into assumption the idea that reality is fictional, and therefore the idea that there exists a "real world" from which it is perceived as fiction. Reality Warping and Fate manipulation don't have the same luxury. In that sense, if the dimensionality is otherwise the same, then by adding "Plot Manipulation" you imply that there exists at least one dimension above the current one which is considered the "real world".

Well, the fact that not all mentions of fiction and reality get minimum tier 2 alone bring problems with this.

If you wish to assume that the kind of fourth wall break the story uses is the kind that allows one to assume higher dimensionality, you need to actually prove that when making the profiles, because there can be versions that simply don't.

Unless you mean to restrict the ability to only beings and applications of the power that are very clearly transcendent over all of the story's reality, that still falls under what I said, in that you need to bring feats and statements instead of default assumptions.

 

[Duedate8898]

Plot Manipulation as an ability inherently brings into assumption the idea that reality is fictional, and therefore the idea that there exists a "real world" from which it is perceived as fiction.

Not necessarily, look at the likes of Aoi Hayanose. The way her plot manipulation is defined, doesn't really imply anything of there being a real world.

 

[YungManzi]

Not necessarily, look at the likes of Aoi Hayanose. The way her plot manipulation is defined, doesn't really imply anything of there being a real world.

Fujitakaverse plot manipulation is very weird, it's more of an exception than the rule. Technically there's very many stories all taking place at the same time with different protagonists. It's also an exception because there are beings who exist above and transcend the plot itself, existing in higher temporal-spatial dimensions. Which are above the plot ect. ect.

Basically even in that case, which is weird in general, there are indeed places that exist beyond plot. They just aren't the "real world" because the real world itself is the plot.

 

[Ricsi-viragosi]

Look, the simple fact is, there is no rule to be an expection to. Plot manipulation taken literally is an NLF, and the fact that we can have reality-fiction interaction without even breaching tier 2 means that adding a fourth wall break element isn't enough of its own.

So, you need to actually pull feats, explainations and claims from the story isntead of throwing out the ability's name and expecting it to work of its own.

 

[PrettyVixenGirl]

Because it is superior to most forms of hax with context. Plot manipulation there is much more going on, and a character immune to reality warping may not be immune to plot manipulation. Without context it's easy to get things confused. Way I see it fate manipulation is very surface. Reality warping, fate manipulation are very surface type of manipulation. Changing the plot goes beyond surface. Its the story itself. And all fiction is a story. Reality warping and similar hax may seem like the same because they do sort of the same things but on a more surface level/simple level. However there are things not capable of being done with those things because of that very reason. However that likely wouldn't hold sway in a versus debate unless it is allowed. Though technically speaking there is no superior thing within a verse. Unless you use the idea they themselves is just a story being manipulated. So on and so forth. But within a story there is nothing superior. Rewlity warping fate manipulation are all too surface to be on the same level. Without context they can easily be confused with plot manipulation. Those things just can do the surface things that's all.

 

[FinePoint]

The way I see it: Plot Manipulation and Fate Manipulation are like Atomization and Decapitation, or Time Slow and Speed Amp.
Sure, in most cases both will do the exact same thing: they kill someone or seemingly speed you up, but nobody would argue that Speed Amp is actually the same thing as Time Slow, just because the end-result tends to be the same. The process, its origin, and its implications are things to consider as well, not just the fact that they can both do the same feats in certain contexts.

It also still follows logically that fate is a result of the plot, and not the other way around. I would argue that changing something directly, and changing it indirectly via changing the medium it's based upon, while leading to the same end-results, are fundamentally different.

 

[Antvasima]

I personally agree with FinePoint, but would appreciate further staff input.

 

[DontTalkDT]

My position is that all abilities can be related but don't need to be and that none of them is inherently superior to the other.
Fiction and the opinions of authors are too varied to make any generalizations of this nature.

 

[Axxtentacle]

I’m gonna be honest, I don’t see why this sparked such a debate.

As I always say, just treat the power based on the feats it has, not just on the certain name attached to it and 90% of the problems like these go away.

We really could just use Ogbu’s suggestion here. Most abilities are taken on a case-by-case basis anyway (or should be), this shouldn’t be an exception.

Otherwise, FinePoint and DontTalk’s views make sense to me.

 

[Antvasima]

Ogbunabali and Axxtentacle make a good point.

 

[Ionliosite]

and that none of them is inherently superior to the other.

I completely agree with this. It's nice to see someone remembered the original point of the OP instead of the discussion about what is Plothax that most of the thread was.

 

[PrettyVixenGirl]

Well in order to understand why it is superior to those other haxes you have to know the fundamentals of what makes it different. All i got from the op was why is it treated as superior to other haxes when it does the same thing (On at least a surface level). When certain limitations and what not may only be possible because they are different. It can only do the same thing in one way

 

[Axxtentacle]

Or, just a theory... we don't apply set-in-stone standards, and we take it on a case-by-case basis, since it's going to be different across many different mediums of fiction?

 

[PrettyVixenGirl]

Context is always important regardless of what power it is imo. Its still superior at its core though

 

[Antvasima]

Anyway: Constructive suggestions regarding how we might improve the Plot Manipulation page, based on the text that I quoted in one of my previous posts, would be very appreciated.

 

[Udlmaster]

I do still think having types of Plot manipulation to help fix the divide between the ideas we have on what Plot Manipulation is:

Too Meta 4 You Plot Manipulation or Fate++ Plot Manipulation

The types pretty much resolve this issue and everyone can be, if not happy, content with their ideas being heard and represented.

 

[BleedingPeach]

Can't we take as an example the case we had with Law Manipulation? Something like restructuring the page itself and add the points to be taken as an example? Because someone with said power/ability, in some cases, could be considered the story writer and everyone else is considered an actor/actress in the "show" said being created. Obviously taking the limitations they have with said power, writing it into the page.

 

[Sera_EX]

Please don't split it into types, we don't need to do that everytime an ability is highly varied

This.

 

[Udlmaster]

Please don't split it into types, we don't need to do that everytime an ability is highly varied

This.

It's all well and good pleading for a solution to not happen, but we're not hear to play the field so everyone can sleep soundly at night.

We're trying to figure out a solution, and the consensus is that we're split between two definitions, and it's incredibly unhelpful to ask this but provide no other solution that resolves the problems that both sides are having.

It seems the main opposition isn't anything besides "Please don't" which isn't a valid argument.

 

[Ricsi-viragosi]

Disagreeing with a solution doesn't mean you need to offer a counter-solution.

Regardless, how exactly would such an immensely broad power even be defined?

Best I could think of was this:

Something akin to:
"Plot Manipulation is the ability to manipulate a story's plot for multiple possible effects. Characters with this ability may be able to create stories, alter already existing stories, or have an innate role to the plot that grants them powers.

A story's plot defines the events, actions, powers, settings and logic, allowing someone who can control the plot to potentially alter everything within their stories. Exemples include retconning past events into happening differently, granting power boosts or immense luck through plot armor and deus ex machinas, causing someone to lose because of their "role" such as a villain losing to the story's hero, etc. "

Then add possible uses and notable users. Some author avatars, blatant enough plot manipulators like Altair, and self-aware protagonists like Gwenpool should be listed.

 

[Sera_EX]

It's all well and good pleading for a solution to not happen, but we're not hear to play the field so everyone can sleep soundly at night.

We're trying to figure out a solution, and the consensus is that we're split between two definitions, and it's incredibly unhelpful to ask this but provide no other solution that resolves the problems that both sides are having.

It seems the main opposition isn't anything besides "Please don't" which isn't a valid argument.

What are you on about? Trying to devalue Andy didn't say "oh no please don't do this". He literally gave a reason and I agree with it. I for one have always had something to say about adding types just to satisfy the ridiculous need to divide up a highly varied power, but for some reason if you want me to elaborate then let me start by saying powers should never be divided into types simply because they have different uses.

 

[Udlmaster]

Disagreeing with a solution doesn't mean you need to offer a counter-solution.

It's no better than saying "No" and leaving a thread but with more steps.

 

[Udlmaster]

What are you on about? Trying to devalue Andy didn't say "oh no please don't do this". He literally gave a reason and I agree with it. I for one have always had something to say about adding types just to satisfy the ridiculous need to divide up a highly varied power, but for some reason if you want me to elaborate then let me start by saying powers should never be divided into types simply because they have different uses.

What he brought up was "I don't think it's superior", which was one of the sides I literally brought up.

I wasn't devaluing the point, I was pointing out how not providing a solution when disagreeing is unhelpful, I don't see what's so complex about this idea.

And saying you don't want it and then not going into a reason why not comes off as just personal preference, which isn't a reason.

 

[FinePoint]

I don't see this particular argument going anywhere productive, so it should probably be stopped.

That said, whether you stand on the side of types or not, what we need now is actual proposals for the new description.

 

[Sera_EX]

Well I can't speak for Andy, but I can speak for myself. We don't need types, not for this. Plot Manipulation is not that complicated, it's actually fairly simple. The uses of this power can vary a great deal but the core principle is the same.

Also, for anyone else, enough with this "we need a solution though" narrative when people have offered solutions. This one in particularly makes the most logical sense:

Add possible uses and notable users. Some author avatars, blatant enough plot manipulators like Altair, and self-aware protagonists like Gwenpool should be listed.

I'm not sure that the definition/description of plot manipulation even needs to be touched either. Preferably it should be left alone, however Risci's suggestion or even Axxtentacle's are the only ones I can get behind.

Plot Manipulation is the ability to control the plot itself. Examples include altering the plot, creating/destroying stories, changing speech bubbles, changing the setting, etc. It is a variation of Reality Warping.

^This is the only acceptable definition of plot manipulation. Do not touch this. It's a mistake that will creep up to bite you where it hurts later.

 

[FinePoint]

Plot Manipulation is the ability to control the plot itself. Examples include altering the plot, creating/destroying stories, changing speech bubbles, changing the setting, etc. It is a variation of Reality Warping.

^This is the only acceptable definition of plot manipulation. Do not touch this. It's a mistake that will creep up to bite you where it hurts later.

I disagree. It doesn't explain what "the plot" is in a sufficient manner. Nor does it explain how it's different than reality warping, history manipulation, or fate manipulation. In short, it doesn't elaborate on anything that's not already implied via its title. It should be the purpose of the ability page to explain some of the nuances that will inevitably come up again in future discussions.

 

[Udlmaster]

Well I can't speak for Andy, but I can speak for myself. We don't need types, not for this. Plot Manipulation is not that complicated, it's actually fairly simple. The uses of this power can vary a great deal but the core principle is the same.

That's not really an argument though. It's clearly complex enough to have several interpretations that people clearly don't agree on. Proclaiming it's simple and there's only one version against observed reality isn't convincing.

This one in particularly makes the most logical sense:

Add possible uses and notable users. Some author avatars, blatant enough plot manipulators like Altair, and self-aware protagonists like Gwenpool should be listed.

Only if we use your Interpretation, and not everyone agrees with your interpretation, which is the problem we're trying to resolve.

Also, for anyone else, enough with this "we need a solution though" narrative when people have offered solutions.

The "We need a solution" isn't

"There isn't any solutions, we need to find one"

It's "There's several problems outlined before and after with the proposed solutions and is why we need a proposition that can resolve these problems."

This is just a shifty way of trying to discredit people we're trying to do more than just join a thread and say "No" then leave (but with more steps of course).

This is the only acceptable definition of plot manipulation. Do not touch this. It's a mistake that will creep up to bite you where it hurts later.

Something something, interpretation, something something.

 

[Sera_EX]

Plot is not a word that needs defining.

 

[Ricsi-viragosi]

Why?

Only if we use your Interpretation, and not everyone agrees with your interpretation, which is the problem we're trying to resolve.

I don't mind the rest, but why that? I mean, don't think anyone will disagree to adding exemples of users of the ability, and placing "plot armor", "writers" and "plot alterations" seems like an obvious thing to do as three distinct exemples.

 

[Sera_EX]

Y'all are acting like "plot" is a complex term like "reality". It's not.

 

[Antvasima]

Plot Manipulation is the ability to control the plot itself. Examples include altering the plot, creating/destroying stories, changing speech bubbles, changing the setting, etc. It is a variation of Reality Warping.

^This is the only acceptable definition of plot manipulation. Do not touch this. It's a mistake that will creep up to bite you where it hurts later.

I agree with this, and also rather liked Ricsi's draft text.

 

[Axxtentacle]

It doesn't necessarily need to be "specified" in my eyes. As brought up before, it basically has all the same effects as other abilities, and "plot" is going to vary per verse. Giving a set-in-stone standard seems unnecessary and likely problematic when we see something that doesn't quite fit our standards pops up.