Bartz fights a small child.

[HST_Master]

I already explained why the half speed isn’t a big deal. He is still outnumbered and one shot and taking the time to summon the guy still leaves him open to a shockwave or a teleport kill.

Considering Speeds Equal it'd be an incredibly big deal, and again it does not in any way take long for a majority of his moves.

Shiva is the exemption from the rule, not the rule itself, he would just as easily summon Odin, who gets befriended, or any other summon. Even then turning into energy

And gets dismissed, not to mention he resists Zantetsuken anyway. And nothing stopping him from summoning Shiva right after.

Casting Libra would probably leave him open if he has to take the time to use it and comprehend all of that info, giving Adeline the chance to summon and Ribbon time to shoot at him. So he probably dies, especially since Libra probably doesn’t tell him the strength of both her, ribbon and all the summons at once. Even if it did that would be all the more info to comprehend in a short timeframe before he gets one shot:

Dude again, none of his moves take long to utilize, not mention, he has accelerated development so that's not a problem for him at all, he can reguarly process how to use the abilities and weapons he copies and use them better than the original anyway.

Sba doesn’t completely change what he would do in character though. Would he first think to kill her? Directly answer the question.

And like I just said, being a child has no barring given that Krile is also a child yet is as strong as him.

Again she can start with spamming star allies sparkler.

And again how guaranteed is she to do this, because this is beginning to seem like a who does what 1st with no definite answer.

 

[00potato]

Her first move is summoning and Ribbon shoots. That is definite. His ain’t clear after Libra. Both are relatively fast as well (raising your hand and shooting respectively. The summons have thought/gesture based teleporting, projectiles, and some 4-A summoning as well.)

He hasn’t shown the ability to copy 4-A’s so that won’t help at all, if he tries to minic her only 5-A things, he will have wasted his time since her stuff is stronger. If he tries to copy the 4-A things, he will fail.

Summoning shiva isn’t much help when you are under attack from that much stuff. Odin or other heart-affected could also befriend her, making him outnumbered. The others could teleport away or turn to energy to escape. It might not insta kill anyway since they can survive getting hit with likely colder then space cold, they should resist enough to think or gesture away.

Krile doesn’t mean that he immediately goes for the kill. Just because someone is close to you in strength doesn’t mean that you will have no qualms about killing them.

 

[00potato]

I expected this to be a quick win for one of the characters honestly.
In the end this is somewhat of a who does what first, except only one character has variance and probably starts off by scanning his opponent, wasting important time that might kill him.

 

[HST_Master]

Her first move is summoning and Ribbon shoots. That is definite. His ain’t clear after Libra. Both are relatively fast as well (raising your hand and shooting respectively. The summons have thought/gesture based teleporting, projectiles, and some 4-A summoning as well.)

His is whatever suits his situation alongside copying his opponent's equipment and or powers. Ribbon's gun seems dodgable at a glance of it's range.

He hasn’t shown the ability to copy 4-A’s so that won’t help at all, if he tries to minic her only 5-A things, he will have wasted his time since her stuff is stronger. If he tries to copy the 4-A things, he will fail.

That doesn't make sense. If he copies whatever she uses to summon, he'd be fine, as it's not the rod that's 4-A, it's what's she's summoning. And according to her page the rod will bring whoever along that list of characters to help assist the wielder.

Summoning shiva isn’t much help when you are under attack from that much stuff.

Except she literally freezes them to absolute zero upon being summoned, as she passively generates that. Turning into energy won't work if you're already frozen solid.

Odin or other heart-affected could also befriend her, making him outnumbered.

And he can dismiss them, repeating this won't change that.

The others could teleport away or turn to energy to escape. It might not insta kill anyway since they can survive getting hit with likely colder then space cold, they should resist enough to think or gesture away.

Cold from outer space is nowhere near as cold as Absolute Zero, it's not comparable in the slightest. AZ completely stops the movement of all molecules in the body.

Krile doesn’t mean that he immediately goes for the kill. Just because someone is close to you in strength doesn’t mean that you will have no qualms about killing them.

Krile is a prime example of being a child and not underestimating someone soley because they're a child, as when he 1st met her, she saved them from Exdeath on her lonesome.

I expected this to be a quick win for one of the characters honestly.
In the end this is somewhat of a who does what first, except only one character has variance and probably starts off by scanning his opponent, wasting important time that might kill him.

Again, his abilities do not in anyway take as much time as you believe, not to mention he multitasks regularly, using multiple weapons and abilities at once that he can switch on the fly. He does not in any matter have to stand still while he does any of his abilities. That said this is a definite who does what 1st.

 

[00potato]

How will he copy the summon? It is massively stronger then him, and they are individuals, he can’t just create a being massively more powerful then himself from thin air.

When has he been shown to dismiss summons that aren’t under his control?

Not underestimating someone doesn’t mean that you lack qualms about immediately killing them at all, where did you get that from?

When has shiva done ever been shown to freeze energythe teleporters can still react to her summoning and the rest can turn to energy.

They still take a decent but of time, comprehending a massive amount of information while perfectly dodging a large amount of attacks from multiple opponents (Including a barrage of crystals, other projectiles and tele-porters.) will. His only win-con is this crazy multitasking which isn’t likely since he is outnumbered and can not make a single mistake. He has so many options and if he chooses wrong, he could easily die while Adeline is far more secure.

 

[HST_Master]

How will he copy the summon? It is massively stronger then him, and they are individuals, he can’t just create a being massively more powerful then himself from thin air.

There's a literal entire list of characters he can summon from.

When has he been shown to dismiss summons that aren’t under his control?

Because they were summoned by him. Not Adeline. And if she really does just friend heart GG, why wouldn't she friend heart Bartz from the start?

Not underestimating someone doesn’t mean that you lack qualms about immediately killing them at all, where did you get that from?

You're saying that he's not gonna attempt to kill her because she's a kid, which doesn't really work.

When has shiva done ever been shown to freeze energythe teleporters can still react to her summoning and the rest can turn to energy.

That's sounds pretty dubious. Her freezing is instant so unless they're already doing so before she's even summoned they're getting frozen, as they have zero resistance to it and resistance to outer space doesn't cover it.

They still take a decent but of time, comprehending a massive amount of information while perfectly dodging a large amount of attacks from multiple opponents (Including a barrage of crystals, other projectiles and tele-porters.) will. His only win-con is this crazy multitasking which isn’t likely since he is outnumbered and can not make a single mistake. He has so many options and if he chooses wrong, he could easily die while Adeline is far more secure.

And again it doesn't, he literally masters abilities in a short amount of time mid battle with ease. This is essentially ignoring that there's several of his abilities they can't do much about such as Time Magic to stop and slow them or speed himself up, Shiva to freeze them (And no, being able to teleport or turn into energy is not helping as it's flash freezing them to AZ there's no time to do either), various forms of death (being able to revive others doesn't matter either as it essentially thins out the amount enemies he's currently fighting regardless and now they have to focus on either keep fighting Bartz or revive their allies assuming he doesn't kill them as well.) And why doesn't Death abilities kill all of them again? if it's just that they're "non living" that won't be enough as Level 5 Death works on those with resistance to the regular version.

 

[00potato]

Actually that’s a good point. She or her summons could just friend heart gg. He doesn’t resist well enough and it instantly ends the match.

I said proof, not a “well he can.” For the summon dispel. He isn’t in control of them, you cannot just assume that he can still dispel them as before.

Shiva is still reactable. He has to summon her, they can literally think in reaction.



Also beating death resist in one respect doesn’t mean it works on non-living creatures. Those are two completely different types and reasons for resistance. Beatung

 

[00potato]

Also just saying things don’t work doesn’t disprove it (not that how he treats a child in character matters much but it helps.) you need solid proof.


How quickly he learns has no real bearing on this fight. At all. He still has a large group to fight that one shot him (including many projectiles and teleport killers.)

 

[HST_Master]

Actually that’s a good point. She or her summons could just friend heart gg. He doesn’t resist well enough and it instantly ends the match.

And yet again, what says she actually starts with this, as I've given my reasons for Bartz and his options.

I said proof, not a “well he can.” For the summon dispel. He isn’t in control of them, you cannot just assume that he can still dispel them as before.

Except it's not a "cuz he can" they're literally summoned off of his own magic which keeps them there. It's his magic that they're going off of. Not to mention he can use Silence to reach the same effect. Unless she summons one of them herself, she has no bearing on him sending them away or not.

Shiva is still reactable. He has to summon her, they can literally think in reaction.

Uh no, they're not going to see Shiva summoned and automatically assume "She could freeze us to AZ, better turn into Energy or teleport elsewhere." As they have no idea she's capable of that. They won't know she's capable of that until it's too late, in which she takes nearly no time to actually appear. So you would need to prove they'd be able to tell just from him summoning her.

Also just saying things don’t work doesn’t disprove it (not that how he treats a child in character matters much but it helps.) you need solid proof.

And I gave it by how he's fully aware a child can fight like with Krile. Not to mention you're essentially saying that he'll hold back soley because she's a child despite SBA and the fact she's supposedly coming out the gate with her summons/shooting at him/launching friend hearts in his direction.

How quickly he learns has no real bearing on this fight. At all. He still has a large group to fight that one shot him (including many projectiles and teleport killers.)

Well yes it does. You're making the assumption that he'll take a long amount of time to process what they resist when this says otherwise.

Also beating death resist in one respect doesn’t mean it works on non-living creatures. Those are two completely different types and reasons for resistance. Beatung

The fact it works on enemies that are just stone is more than enough like the Golems and this is only normal death.

 

[Lou_change]

I think ribbon makes ado win because attack speed doesn't get equalized normally so the crystal gun kills him as he speaks a spell.

 

[00potato]

Whenever you have the summon staff. You immediately use it, why would it be different here? Friend hearts are the next option in most circumstances and he/his summons doesn’t have good enough resist so......

Why does his ability to grasp weapons effect how quickly Libra works? One is based on a unique spell and the other is how quickly he understands weapons. (Can I see a scan for the learning thing?)

What the hell is “normal death.”
Oh yes I’ll take a double supreme death thank you very much.

 

[HST_Master]

Whenever you have the summon staff. You immediately use it, why would it be different here? Friend hearts are the next option in most circumstances and he/his summons doesn’t have good enough resist so......

So this is a player thing and not an actual in character move?

Why does his ability to grasp weapons effect how quickly Libra works? One is based on a unique spell and the other is how quickly he understands weapons. (Can I see a scan for the learning thing?)

Accelerated Development isn't just for weapons. It's for abilities in general.

What the hell is “normal death.”
Oh yes I’ll take a double supreme death thank you very much.

Would you like to supersize that? The normal death spell. He has more than one way to apply it from single target to all enemies. Level 5 Death in particular bypasses resistances to it.

And not sure if the mastery image uploaded or not, I still dunno how to put images on here. But the stars represent him mastering his abilities mid battle.

 

[00potato]

The image isn’t showing up in my screen. This new wiki is wack at times.

It technically could be argued as a player thing but the staff always is used immediately upon contact, so it counts as IC (it isn’t just a gameplay mechanic because it happens in game.) Considering that she always relies on her other summons before start allies, the fact that the stick is immediately used on contact, and how quick it is to use. It most definitely is the first move.

Yes I would want to supersize that.

 

[00potato]

....,....,,?,??’z!,?,?,?

 

[Lou_change]

I think ribbon makes ado win because attack speed doesn't get equalized normally so the crystal gun kills him as he speaks a spell.

So does he have a counter to this.

 

[00potato]

Not really. It one shots and I fail to see how he will revive from something that much stronger then him. If he uses Phoenix then it can get hearted or one shot too.

 

[Lou_change]

Then ado FRA

 

[HST_Master]

Sorry, IRL Stuff

That said, he has reflect.

The stars above represent him mastering something. (I don't feel like fighting with this forums so I just linked it from the wiki)

VS Battles Wiki

The VS Battles Wiki is the world's most comprehensive and popular index of statistics and powers for characters and items from all of popular fiction.

vsbattles.fandom.com

 

[00potato]

Reflect might work on a freind heart but not the 4-A attacks. If he used it to block a heart he could just as easily get one shot by the at least 2-3 other characters constantly attacking him. Even then a reflected heart should be dodgable.

I would argue much of the quick learning is gameplay mechanics? The shot is just from gameplay, I don’t have any context, and no lore explaining how it works in FF5.

 

[HST_Master]

If a reflected heart can be dodged, then they can be dodged in general. As can the other attacks, he's not utterly stationary and even has ways of speeding himself up such as haste, alongside that he has ways of incaping.

Nope, another who fought him even states he mastered his abilities and fighting styles mid battle, even more so than the original user. The stars are simply a visual representation.

VS Battles Wiki

The VS Battles Wiki is the world's most comprehensive and popular index of statistics and powers for characters and items from all of popular fiction.

vsbattles.fandom.com

 

[00potato]

The difference is, Adeline has multiple folks who can toss hearts along with many other projectiles. If he dodges or reflects one, he could get hit with another and either get one shot or haxed. He would only be shooting the one at a person who can either teleport or turn to energy at will, not gonna hit.

 

[HST_Master]

The difference is, Adeline has multiple folks who can toss hearts along with many other projectiles. If he dodges or reflects one, he could get hit with another and either get one shot or haxed. He would only be shooting the one at a person who can either teleport or turn to energy at will, not gonna hit.

The Reflect is passive with the Reflect Ring. So if they do just spam him with Friend Hearts, all that's doing is having a bunch of friend hearts being volley'd back at them, including Adeline which gives him ample time to dodge anything he can't directly take on and act accordingly, and essentially forces them into having to get upclose to actually attack him, which he doesn't have to reciprocate if he so chooses. And not to mention he can Teleport himself.

 

[00potato]

So they won’t spam hearts on Bartz after seeing the reflect. They might use it on the summons though. Hearts themselves aren’t super spammable anyway, I was more referring to Hearts and other more spammy projectiles.

Many of the summons can also teleport, which sometimes even causes 4-A damage. So his teleporting is easily countered with a one shot.

 

[HST_Master]

So they won’t spam hearts on Bartz after seeing the reflect. They might use it on the summons though. Hearts themselves aren’t super spammable anyway, I was more referring to Hearts and other more spammy projectiles.

Many of the summons can also teleport, which sometimes even causes 4-A damage. So his teleporting is easily countered with a one shot.

Assuming literally none of them, including Adeline are hit, even if they have other projectiles, they'd still be reflected/dodged, unless it's a purely physical attack which can still be dodged and or countered with magic. And Reflect can be casted on others as well, in fact a summon, Carbuncle mass casts Reflect.

Only if they get close, which like I said, he can choose if they do or don't.

 

[00potato]

That is all assuming he isn’t hit once. He is far more likely to get hit by the teleporters or the swarm of crystals or any of ado’s summons, then a reflected attack to them. He could dodge in theory but considering all he has to dodge flawlessly, he isn’t. How can he dodge teleport kills, multiple sources of projectiles, she even has homing attack with the sparkler which he ain’t dodging.

 

[Lou_change]

I think unless he can cast the spell faster than ribbon presses the trigger he dies.

 

[HST_Master]

That is all assuming he isn’t hit once. He is far more likely to get hit by the teleporters or the swarm of crystals or any of ado’s summons, then a reflected attack to them. He could dodge in theory but considering all he has to dodge flawlessly, he isn’t. How can he dodge teleport kills, multiple sources of projectiles, she even has homing attack with the sparkler which he ain’t dodging.

Again Reflect is passive via the Reflect Ring. He doesn't have to do anything because it's already active on him. So yes, none of the friend hearts or anything that's not physically getting close and hitting him are going to hit him without being reflected. And again Bartz has teleportation himself so getting close is difficult in and of itself alongside time magic and death magic to incap and has no travel time, it casts directly on the target, unlike so far everything you've described for Adeleine, afterall the crux of your argument is that he'd get bum rushed by her summons which would supposedly give him zero time to do amything but take the hits. I doubt they'd do so if their attacks get reflected back at them which gives him more than enough time to act, even though he doesn't need it regardless. And I'd doubt if he summoned their 1st reaction would be to N A K A M A them as they literally just saw that it didn't work on Bartz giving the summons (sans Shiva who does her thing just by showing up) time to act as well.

I think unless he can cast the spell faster than ribbon presses the trigger he dies.

This is assuming he's gonna stand completely still and let her shoot. And again reflect if it shoots something like lasers.

 

[00potato]

My argument isn’t that he won’t be able to react to a bum rush.
The argument is that he won’t be able to dodge teleport kills and homing projectiles (at the same time mind you.)
Why would the attacks be reflected? It is a standard projectile, more like a gun if anything. Even then it is an NLF to assume he can reflect a tier 4 projectile or attack. His ability to teleport is countered by the other teleports and homing. So he gets one shot.
Why would they assume his summons have the reflect? They don’t seem to have anything in common with Bartz besides being summoned by him.

 

[Lou_change]

Yes the final fantasy character aim dodges the tiny fairy with a weird gun crystal also reflect only works on spells, friend hearts aren't even listed as magic.

 

[HST_Master]

Yes the final fantasy character aim dodges the tiny fairy with a weird gun crystal also reflect only works on spells, friend hearts aren't even listed as magic.

So, you're logic is that he simply stands and stares? Not to mention it reflects anything that's not physical, which simply equates to magic in game, which has also reflected lasers and the like. And like I said earlier anything that is physcial (Like an arrow or boomerang or somethin) can be dodged instead.

EDIT: Not to mention stuff like Blaster and Atomic Ray isn't considered magic but still reflectable.

My argument isn’t that he won’t be able to react to a bum rush.
The argument is that he won’t be able to dodge teleport kills and homing projectiles (at the same time mind you.)

So bum rush. Which again I've given reasons why this strat doesn't work.

Why would the attacks be reflected? It is a standard projectile, more like a gun if anything.

Because it falls under lasers and the like, which falls under the umbrella of reflectable attacks.

Even then it is an NLF to assume he can reflect a tier 4 projectile or attack. His ability to teleport is countered by the other teleports and homing. So he gets one shot.

A. How? He can even used it against Neo Exdeath's Abilities, and before you bring it up, again the outlier only applies to physical scaling in other words his AP, Dura etc or else he'd be 2-A instead of being 5-A, likely 3-C (which needs a revision, the 3-C part anyhow)

B. You're arguing that by countering the teleporters with teleportation he'd get hit somehow? And again, Time Magic is a thing to counter any homing attacks.

Why would they assume his summons have the reflect? They don’t seem to have anything in common with Bartz besides being summoned by him.

they literally just saw that it didn't work on Bartz giving the summons (sans Shiva who does her thing just by showing up) time to act as well.

There's zero reasoning why'd they go right back to spamming like a bad cpu.

 

[00potato]

Wait, so you call the Neo-Exdearh scaling an outlier, but Aalto claim his spells can reflect his attacks. No, you can’t have both.If the fight is considered and outlier, then you can’t use it for his spell scaling. It is still an NLF. Either he can’t reflect or is 2-A, you choose. It would not just apply to his physicals, the whole fight would be considered an outlier.

I never said he will stand still. Even if he is on the move dodging homing attacks, numerous projectiles, teleport, etc.
Time magic would not counter those, just give him a bit of time at best (assuming he uses it before getting one shot.) You are acting like he can dodge all of that with ease, perfectly. Even using time magic, a teleport can still kill, a projectile still one shots. This is assuming he can get it off before Magalor gestures in his general direction and kills him. Even if he can teleport, that doesn’t stop other teleporters from hitting him, at best it turns into a chase where is Bartz lets up at all, he gets one shot.

Why would they assume it wouldn’t work on the summons. They aren’t Bartz, they have little to do with Bartz. The projectiles would still hit them fine.

 

[HST_Master]

Wait, so you call the Neo-Exdearh scaling an outlier, but Aalto claim his spells can reflect his attacks. No, you can’t have both.If the fight is considered and outlier, then you can’t use it for his spell scaling. It is still an NLF. Either he can’t reflect or is 2-A, you choose. It would not just apply to his physicals, the whole fight would be considered an outlier.

Yes considering he's literally fought both Enuo and Neo Exdeath. It only applies to his physcials. He's not the 1st character or last that isn't able to scale, but still have abilities that could work.

I never said he will stand still. Even if he is on the move dodging homing attacks, numerous projectiles, teleport, etc.

I've already addressed why this isn't a guarantee.

Time magic would not counter those, just give him a bit of time at best (assuming he uses it before getting one shot.) You are acting like he can dodge all of that with ease, perfectly.

You mean like you're acting like she's to land all of them perfectly? And what? They don't have any resistance so what is preventing time magic, what is preventing something that'll either slow them, stop them, or make himself faster?

Even using time magic, a teleport can still kill, a projectile still one shots. This is assuming he can get it off before Magalor gestures in his general direction and kills him. Even if he can teleport, that doesn’t stop other teleporters from hitting him, at best it turns into a chase where is Bartz lets up at all, he gets one shot.

"Even using time magic" Again where's the resistance? Because you're treating it as if it's they resist anything Bartz throws at them and Bartz has nothing to attack with which that is grossly untrue.

Why would they assume it wouldn’t work on the summons. They aren’t Bartz, they have little to do with Bartz. The projectiles would still hit them fine.

Have little to do with Bartz

Is summoned by Bartz and there's even one who's sole spell is Reflect

they literally just saw that it didn't work on Bartz giving the summons (sans Shiva who does her thing just by showing up) time to act as well.

And unlike Bartz, they have zero ways to check. It's a gamble for them to attack or not, giving Bartz either time to attack with multi target Dura Neg spells or actually apply Reflect (or let Carbuncle do it) and go in with hax.

 

[00potato]

The Neo fight is still an outlier. It would not only apply to his physicals. You can’t just pick and choose what from a fight is outlier and what isn’t. If you don’t want to scale him to Neo-Exdeath, then don’t. If you do then make him 2-A or give him a new key.

One attack is a teleport, the other is homing, the other big one is a shockwave. They literally cannot miss, every instance is pretty much perfect.
I never said they resist anything, it just doesn’t matter because he can’t dodge homing, shockwaves, teleports, etc. he can’t reflect either because he has no showings of reflecting tier 4 and above outside or outlier fights we can’t use.

 

[Lou_change]

No amount verse equalized with protect him from friend hearts the site say specifically says it is for magic.

 

[HST_Master]

The Neo fight is still an outlier. It would not only apply to his physicals. You can’t just pick and choose what from a fight is outlier and what isn’t. If you don’t want to scale him to Neo-Exdeath, then don’t. If you do then make him 2-A or give him a new key.

And that's not how it works. He's not able to scale physically has no bearing on his abilities. It's not pick and choosing it's straight up how his abilities work.

One attack is a teleport, the other is homing, the other big one is a shockwave. They literally cannot miss, every instance is pretty much perfect.

That can countered with either Teleportation or time magic. To say it's perfect is faulty.

I never said they resist anything, it just doesn’t matter because he can’t dodge homing, shockwaves, teleports, etc. he can’t reflect either because he has no showings of reflecting tier 4 and above outside or outlier fights we can’t use.

Refer to the previous 2 answers. He already has showings, it's just that he's not allowed to physically scale. The sole thing that can't be used is trying to up him to 2-A.

 

[HST_Master]

No amount verse equalized with protect him from friend hearts the site say specifically says it is for magic.

I literally listed 2 attacks that aren't magic in game. So yes, they do.

 

[Lou_change]

I mean that requires a CRT as that is not what his page says.

 

[HST_Master]

I mean that requires a CRT as that is not what his page says.

No it doesn't, as it's already assumed it's not limited to just magic.

straight from the wiki: "Atomic Ray is an enemy ability used by several enemies such as Red Dragon, Gorgimera and Omega. It inflicts moderate Fire-elemental damage to the entire party. The player may utilize this ability by catching and releasing a Red Dragon or Istory Lythos"

 

[00potato]

The showings are outliers though.
If he doesn’t scale physically, and we don’t consider those showings. Why would we consider those showings, only to his magic if we don’t for everything else? If we did he would be 2-A via magic but we don’t and by your own logic, we don’t. If this is Hill you need to die on, then we might as well just put him at #3
Either his magic and physicals are 2-A, or neither. Choose, don’t be an idiot.

Neither time magic or teleporting will counter those. The homing attacks will still home and the teleport is still pretty much instant. If he teleports in response, so will the summon, and so etc, etc.

 

[Lou_change]

That says nothing about reflect working on it.