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Some Warhammer 40k Stuff

Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot

Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot

VS Battles
Retired VSB Bureaucrat
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I am extremely unsure how to feel about this.

I've been reading through the Horus Heresy series, and have been bombarded with quite a few quotes regarding the nature of the Warhammer 40k verse.

Firstly, the 20-D feat we currently scale all the god tiers to might be an extreme lowball. In the novel Mechanicum, a character says this:

  • "'Here?' cried Semyon, throwing his arms wide and spinning around like a lunatic. 'You have such a limited understanding of the material world, girl. Words like here and there have no meaning. The myriad dimensions of this material universe cannot be defined by so limited a thing as human language!'"
So we have this Mechanicum adept named Semyon stating that the material universe has more dimensions than can be described by human language. I initially was going to write this off as him being insane, because that is what the character he's speaking to believed, but it is later revealed he was actually given deep knowledge of the universe by the Dragon of Mars, even being able to view events that no one else even remembers happened because they're so ancient.

It's also important to note that this is in no way contradictory. The current feat never says anything even close to, "The material universe has only 20 dimensions". It's merely some Necrons utilizing 20-dimensional tech to keep a C'tan shard imprisoned. Guess who taught the Necrons how to use higher-dimensional technology? The C'tan. The Void Dragon being among them. The same Void Dragon who revealed to Semyon the nature of the universe.

There are also extremely consistent statements regarding the Warp being dimensionless/dimensions being meaningless there, but these are more controversial and don't know if they should be acknowledged due to that, perhaps just going with what we learned from the quote above.

  • "She was trapped in the darkness. She tried to wake, but there was only the utter, unbreakable darkness in all directions. In truth, she could not even think in terms of directions, for this space appeared to be dimensionless. She had no sensation of up or down and no sense of the passage of time. Had she been here for long?" - Mechanicum
  • "His connection with the material world faded, and the Great Ocean swelled around him, a maelstrom of non-existent colours, nameless emotions and meaningless dimensions." - A Thousand Sons
  • "Concerns of the material world intruded on his introspective plunge, and Magnus looked out on a world of shadows and deceit. He had passed from the realm of flesh to the realm of spirit without even thinking of it, and floated in a place without form and dimensions save any he desired to impose upon it. This was the entrance to the network, the nexus point that led into the labyrinth. This was what he had come to Aghoru to find." - A Thousand Sons
  • "Ripping it aside, tearing it bodily from its bearings, Ferrus revealed a doorway of light. Casting the wretched seat aside, he stepped through the portal and prepared to face his tormentors. It was not as he expected. An orrery of worlds and stars revolved before him, locked in an infinite space that had no dimension, no limit or discernible edges. The effect was disconcerting." - The Primarchs
  • "When ancient mathematicians first discovered the dimensions beyond the physical, many a classical scholar had been driven to insanity in his attempts to codify his findings in empirical terms. Thanks to the words encrypted in the secret journal of the Firenzii ― the slender volume the Crimson King had helped him decode ― Perturabo had learned the secrets of navigating such tempestuous calculus. It was an inexact science, not meant for mortal brains to comprehend, but his cognitive reach was far beyond those lunatic geniuses who had tried and failed to grasp the enormity of the worlds they had glimpsed in dreams and fugue states." - Angel Exterminatus
  • "Distance was physically meaningless in the warp, but his brain could not cope with a dimensionless state, no matter his training. It was impossible to shape thoughts without a sense of up and down, near and far, in and out." - All Must End
  • NOTE: The current proposed update is "1-B, possibly higher" for the verse's god tiers.
 
Well, as I stated before, I think that these things are far too controversial and vague to be properly used for an upgrade.

The Mechanicum quote states that there are more dimensions than the human mind can comprehend, but then again, when characters in Warhammer tend to make contact with dark powers such as the Chaos Gods, The C'tan and the Tyranid Hive-Mind, while they do gain further knowledge of how the universe works, they also go bonkers from the experience. A very good example of this is the Genestealer Cultists who believe that the Tyranid Threat is so large that it's smallest tendril dwarfs the Milky Way galaxy, which we know from Omniscient Narrator statements isn't true.

The second Mechanicum quotes states that the Warp appears dimensionless, but you really don't need to be a 1-A space in order for their to be no sense of up and down or passage of time.

The first Thousand Sons quote simply says that the Warp has "meaningless dimensions" that's way too vague. The second Thousand Sons quote is more clear, saying that you can impose form and dimension into places in the Warp which otherwise wouldn't have it.

The Primarchs' quote simply says that the there is a "Infinite space that had no dimension, limit or discernible edges". Is this talking about Spatial Dimensions as a whole or physical size? The later seems more likely.

The Angel Exterminatus quote just says that the Warp has dimensions beyond the physical and that it is impossible to comprehend. Nothing to take from there.

The All Must End quote says that distance is meaningless and that the Warp is dimensionless. This is the most clarifying quote. But then again, I feel that 1-A 40K has been discussed before and disagreed with.
 
Well, even if the 20-D thing was a lowball it'd still be some unspecified range of 1-B, so it wouldn't change anything.

As much as I'd love 1-A Warp, I'm inclined to agree with Matt here about these mostly either being too vague or not necessarily 1-A, though the last quote is good and I don't really have anything to say in opposition to that.
 
@Matt

I feel the need to note that 1-A 40k was discussed with zero of the above quotes, all of which are new. That said, while something being controversial isn't a valid reason to not add it, I feel as though something like the first Mechanicum quote is the safest route.

Semyon is not some insane cultist, though. He is an incredibly smart individual tasked with one of the most important jobs in the Imperium; guarding the Dragon. He only seems crazy at first because of his severe lack of human interaction, but the main character finds out he is indeed telling the truth, and even becomes the Dragon's new guardian. I see no reason to write off his statement as "he's just crazy", especially when said statement is not contradicted.

"The second Mechanicum quotes states that the Warp appears dimensionless, but you really don't need to be a 1-A space in order for their to be no sense of up and down or passage of time."

I did not say this quote was 1-A, but that it states an area is dimensionless.

"The second Thousand Sons quote is more clear, saying that you can impose form and dimension into places in the Warp which otherwise wouldn't have it."

Yes, this goes into what I said a while ago, wherein it seems to be implied the Chaos Gods can choose the overall dimensional structure of a part of the Warp completely arbitrarily, which would imply transcendence of dimensions as a whole, or an amount so high/potentially endless that such values do not matter. The Mechanicum quote would at least suggest the latter, if that is how large the material universe on its own is.

"Nothing to take from there."

Used as a clarifier for the Warp compared to the material universe presented in the Mechanicum quote.

"The All Must End quote says that distance is meaningless and that the Warp is dimensionless. This is the most clarifying quote. But then again, I feel that 1-A 40K has been discussed before and disagreed with."

Like I said before, said discussion involved none of said quotes. We don't refuse to upgrade a franchise if new information comes to light simply because we talked about it before. That said, I am shaky on 1-A, which is why I would treat the Mechanicum quote as the best proof of something, since it is extremely direct.
 
@Prom

It's more a potential upgrade from relatively low-end 1-B to ******* ludicrously high-end 1-B that I was proposing with the first quote. Tier itself doesn't change, just the reason.

Yeah, the All Must End quote is very...direct, though I'm hesitant based on controversy and the nature of the franchise as a whole.
 
Again, I prefer to use a direct statement. Saying that "There's more dimensions than human language can describe" is simply... nonsensical. We can describe a googol dimension, a googolplex dimensions, infinite dimensions. The quote seems to more likely be saying that there is a "f*ckton" of dimension, albeit in a poetic / hyperbolic fashion.
 
Infinity is a concept, not a number. It is completely possible for there to be more dimensions than human language can describe without there being an infinite amount. More than any number we have but not infinite isn't a vague concept.

Even if we were to simply treat it as, "Jesus Christ, there's a lot of God damn dimensions!", I'm fairly certain that would be a value greater than 20.
 
Azathoth the Abyssal Idiot said:
Infinity is a concept, not a number. It is completely possible for there to be more dimensions than human language can describe without there being an infinite amount. More than any number we have but not infinite isn't a vague concept.
Even if we were to simply treat it as, "Jesus Christ, there's a lot of God damn dimensions!", I'm fairly certain that would be a value greater than 20.
Click to expand...
Except that such a quote is absurd by it's very nature. There's a Marvel Comic statements that the Abstract Entities exist in "Transfinite levels of existence that humanity has never even began to conceive, and would not even imagine for hundreds of years". Should we make all Marvel Abstracts 1-A because of it?

This is the same problem I have with taking such a high-end statement at face value. It's frankly ludicrous.

We definitely need more proof to upgrade the Chaos Gods into the most-powerful 1-Bs of the site, containing "More dimensions than human language can describe" (Specially when stuff like Graham's Number and BIG FOOT exist), out of one statement in one book from a franchise that has hundreds of them.

"Even if we were to simply treat it as, "Jesus Christ, there's a lot of God damn dimensions!", I'm fairly certain that would be a value greater than 20."

I agree, but we don't know how many. Hence, using 20 dimensions as a low-end is the safest route here.
 
@Prom

I would also find something like that to be most accurate. Especially since "possibly" better reflects the uncertainty compared to something along the lines of "likely".
 
"There's a Marvel Comic statements that the Abstract Entities exist in "Transfinite levels of existence that humanity has never even began to conceive, and would not even imagine for hundreds of years". Should we make all Marvel Abstracts 1-A because of it?"

That would still be High 1-B, but regardless, it all depends on the level of contradiction. Is the statement reliable? Is it contradicted by more than what supports it? Etc.

"This is the same problem I have with taking such a high-end statement at face value. It's frankly ludicrous."

This isn't even the highest-end statement about them we can take, and is one of the most direct.

"We definitely need more proof to upgrade the Chaos Gods into the most-powerful 1-Bs of the site, containing "More dimensions than human language can describe" (Specially when stuff like Graham's Number and BIG FOOT exist), out of one statement in one book from a franchise that has hundreds of them."

It doesn't matter if it's ludicrous. We're talking about things explicitly beyond human understanding. Even then, it's a statement that is supplemented by other statements in the same series, and not contradicted.

"I agree, but we don't know how many. Hence, using 20 dimensions as a low-end is the safest route here."

This involves ignoring the statement entirely, and doing so in favor of another statement that is not even contradictory. It would also ignore the numerous quotes about the Chaos Gods finding the dimensions of the physical universe meaningless, which would scale them to it.

I'm not even advocating for something nuts like 1-A here, but to use a quote that basically says "the universe has a fuckton of dimensions" as proof that the universe has a fuckton of dimensions.
 
Here's an example of how many of the quotes go together.

  • We have a quote that says the Necrons can utilize higher-dimensions and extensions of the physical universe beyond what we normally see
  • Necron Deathmarks have 5-D aiming tech
  • Necron Tomb Blades have 7-D tracking tech
  • Necrons have 20-D imprisonment tech
  • The material universe has a myriad of dimensions that cannot be defined by human language
None of these statements contradict each other. They are consistent proof of higher-dimensions in the material universe, which go hand in hand. None of the first four limit the final one, and only give it further validity.

If we ignore this, it feels as if it is done only to avoid controversy, and even then, this still has the verse's god tiers absolutely absurdly below any of the top tiers from something like Marvel or DC.
 
Hm...perhaps something of this nature for the Chaos Gods, for example.

"1-B, possibly higher (Transcendent of the material universe, which contains a myriad of higher dimensions so great that they 'cannot be defined by so limited a thing as human language'. Unbound by the restrictions of physical reality, such as form and its dimensions, save any they choose to impose on themselves.)"
 
I mean, the second part is quite literally stated by the narrator.

"He had passed from the realm of flesh to the realm of spirit without even thinking of it, and floated in a place without form and dimensions save any he desired to impose upon it."

And the first is stated by someone granted untold knowledge of the universe by the Void Dragon.

I don't think you can get much more direct. We're even going with only the most absolutely certain version, which is that the Warp is explicitly unlimited by the material universe's dimensions.
 
Considering that going from the OP and discussion so far I don't see any contradictions with the mechanics of the series and what was presented, and more like this is expanding the nature of the 40k Universe and the dimensions of the Warp as well as the innerworkings of the material universe, I'm okay with the changes currently proposed.
 
Also isn't that last quote kinda like, implying a state of being independent of duality as a whole (when combined with the other dimensionless statements)? Or am I reading/understanding things wrong?
 
@Fate

You mean the one from All Must End? I think it's more just stating that in the Warp, all worldly conceptions you could have are entirely meaningless, since distance and space aren't things. Thus you have no frame of reference.
 
@Azzy Yes, that one. And I see, that makes sense.

It's just that there are so many dimensionless statements in the OP that by the time I got to the last one you almost had me convinced of 1-A warp, assuming there were no contradictions. But thanks for explaining.
 
Same as Fate in my case. I also have some friends who know quite a bit about Warhammer, and they have told me that in Rogue Trader and Eye of Terror there are statements of more than a hundred dimensions.
 
@Lephyr

This would not surprise me, as new lore makes it clear the Gods can arbitrarily impose dimensions in the Warp at will. There's some old quote that has Tzeentch with a 999-dimensional realm that I can't seem to find but know exists, so there's that too.

If you could get any exact quotes, that would be nice as even further justification for their 1-B tier moving up to a much, much higher end.
 
@Azathoth The more I reread the OP and compare it to the recquirements for 1-A, the more I get confused in regards to why this still warrants 1-B, but since you and Matt know the series way better than me, I feel like the safest path is to go along with your final decision.

Personally I'd say that this sounds good enough for a possibly 1-A, but since you guys are certain this is vague and controversial and are the most knowledgeable on 40k around here as far as I know, then it's probably for the best to go with the changes you suggested of 1-B, possibly higher.
 
@Fate

A lot of it is that I don't want to deal with controversy, and we technically never get direct statement that they fully transcend all dimensions, or something.
 
I agree with the proposed upgrades based off of another case similar to the one stated here, if a statement is backed up by other statements then I see no issue with the upgrade, given that this case is very similar with Bill Cipher (i.e, his 2-A possibly High 1-C rating)
 
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