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The Gentle Pull /=/ A Character

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Metal875

Metal875

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Alright guys, buckle up. We're in for one hell of a ride. I'm here to reveal some issues with considering The Gentle Pull a legitimate being.

The Lack of Info
First of all the problems with this "character," we lack info on it. Please note that its description was extremely vague. But, from what we can get from it, The Gentle Pull is an emotion, rather than a being.

Rosalina states the following about it: "There is a force that binds us, defying even time and space... Not even the laws of the universe can stop it. I knew its gentle pull would prevail. It is the desire to be reunited with someone who is important to you. That pull is what brought us together."

As you can see, this "character" is the mere desire to be reunited with someone important to you. It's a concept--NOT a being.

This kind of trope happens all the time in movies and games. Love and/or the desire to love will always prevail. This is more so a cliché, rather than a being that is supposed to be taken seriously. This has actually happened before in Mario--what with the power of love in Super Paper Mario, and the power of love, again, in Super Mario RPG. Love has already been dismissed as a mere concept in Mario--this shouldn't be treated differently.

This will now lead us to the next problem.

Assumptions
Many assumptions are made about this... thing. An obvious example is that it's an actual being. But of course, its powers are stretched as well. It binds us together, so it's Omnipresent? Not quite. Rosalina already says that it's the desire to be reunited with someone, obviously it binds them together. A lot of its powers are dubious at best, as well as the fact that this is even a character to begin with.

Hell, even the administrator of the Mario Wiki disagrees with this being an actual character. It's so vague, that it's almost literally nothing.

Conclusion
The Gentle Pull isn't a character. It's too stretchy, it's too vague, there's too much against it, it's mentioned nowhere else, etc.

It should have its profile removed and deleted.
 
I'm neutral about the issue but:

1) Conceptual characters are a thing

2) If it exists everywhere it's indeed omnipresent

3) The administrator of the Mario Wiki disagreeing with it isn't relevant
 
Kaltias said:
I'm neutral about the issue but:

1) Conceptual characters are a thing

2) If it exists everywhere it's indeed omnipresent

3) The administrator of the Mario Wiki disagreeing with it isn't relevant
Click to expand...
1. Maybe so. But this doesn't look like a conceptual character at all. It honestly looks like nothing but a cliche of "love will pull through." Just look at what Rosalina says.

2. It binds two people together through their will to be together. And that's saying as if it is a character, too.

3. The guy knows a lot about Mario, and he even gave reasons on the thread of why he disagrees. It's relevant to the discussion, in my opinion.
 
The Gentle Pull is really only mentioned once? If what I am hearing is right, it is merely a flowery way to say the power of love, not even a conceptual or abstract character. This is like if I made a character "The Bonds" for Dragon Quest, or even like if we start making a profile on the Higgs Field, it is ridiculous. The quote sounds like a metaphor if anything for love and friendship. So I agree with this
 
FanofRPGs said:
The Gentle Pull is really only mentioned once? If what I am hearing is right, it is merely a flowery way to say the power of love, not even a conceptual or abstract character. This is like if I made a character "The Bonds" for Dragon Quest, or even like if we start making a profile on the Higgs Field, it is ridiculous. The quote sounds like a metaphor if anything for love and friendship. So I agree with this
Click to expand...
Yup. The only time The Gentle Pull was ever mentioned was in Super Mario Galaxy 2. It wasn't even mentioned in its predecessor.

Good points, by the way.
 
For part one. There are tier 1s, even 0s that lack info. Some even less than this. That's not relevant. As Kaltias said, conceptual beings are a thing, and both, here, and at the OBD, it's kinda seen as a somewhat sentient force. And considering the second "us" referred to Mario and Rosalina, it's not love. Because Mario doesn't love Rosalina, and vice versa.

For two. Assumptions. The second us may be referring to Mario and Rosalina, but the first wasn't. It's referring to all life forms. Which would require omnipresence. And given that it defies time and space requires it to be at the very least immeasurable. Finally, with the administrator disagreeing, for one, doesn't mean much, especially because it looks like Adam was trying to pull answers out of him, coupling with the fact that it seems that he doesn't know concepts can be sentient in fiction. Also, even non-sentient things, even concepts, can have tiers this high. Sea of Nothingness from Umineko is 1-A. Hell, even Regular Show has a High 2-A mall.
 
The real cal howard said:
For part one. There are tier 1s, even 0s that lack info. Some even less than this. That's not relevant. As Kaltias said, conceptual beings are a thing, and both, here, and at the OBD, it's kinda seen as a somewhat sentient force. And considering the second "us" referred to Mario and Rosalina, it's not love. Because Mario doesn't love Rosalina, and vice versa.

For two. Assumptions. The second us may be referring to Mario and Rosalina, but the first wasn't. It's referring to all life forms. Which would require omnipresence. And given that it defies time and space requires it to be at the very least immeasurable. Finally, with the administrator disagreeing, for one, doesn't mean much, especially because it looks like Adam was trying to pull answers out of him, coupling with the fact that it seems that he doesn't know concepts can be sentient in fiction. Also, even non-sentient things, even concepts, can have tiers this high. Sea of Nothingness from Umineko is 1-A. Hell, even Regular Show has a High 2-A mall.
Click to expand...
As far as I recall, Rosalina had thanked Mario for bringing the Luma back. And then she goes on about how the Luma and her were reunited via this force--not anything to do with Mario.

It's referring to all living beings? Not really. Again, Rosalina was just talking about how the Luma and her were finally reunited. Considering how one second ago she was talking about her and Luma, and then all of a sudden talking about all living things doesn't really add up.

And while he may not realize that, he still brought up points. Even though, if it isn't relevant enough, we don't need that.

The whole point here is that it's talking about how Luma and Rosalina were finally reunited through some vague force that seems to be love.
 
I didn't get the vibe that it was about Rosalina and a single Luma. Like, at all. And depending on if she was or wasn't decides the fates of both of our most recent arguments.
 
The real cal howard said:
For part one. There are tier 1s, even 0s that lack info. Some even less than this. That's not relevant. As Kaltias said, conceptual beings are a thing, and both, here, and at the OBD, it's kinda seen as a somewhat sentient force. And considering the second "us" referred to Mario and Rosalina, it's not love. Because Mario doesn't love Rosalina, and vice versa.
Click to expand...
There is difference between one lacking information and one stated in a single quote. And it is literally called a force, not a concept. This is not some representor of "The Gentle Pull", this is just some weird law or force of nature that permeates it. Should we now accept the Higgs Field which permeates 11-dimensional space and gives mass to all things in the universe for a profile?
 
A concept is a thing and the statement rosalina said "not even the law can stop It. She referred this Force as a some sort of being. Defying time and space and most likely above them as well. As i played the game many time back in the day, she specifically refers this Force/being especially when she referred to it as a It.
 
Basically what other people have said

1. Conceptual entities are a thing and exist.

2. Non sentient characters or abstract forces also can have profiles here.

3. With all due respect to that admin, him thinking something doesn't immediately mean it's true. Especially when he's getting pushed out of an answer from someone who, let's face it, clearly has an agenda.

4. As NAMF and Cal said, it is described as being a somewhat force like thing with its properties.

The Gentle Pull may be vague or ambiguous, but it is still eligible for having a page here. I am fine with whatever other staff decide though.
 
I agree with Cal, MarioFan and Ryu here. ZeoSpark is a really cool guy, I've seen him around a few times and he's very intelligent, nice and knowledgeable, but his opinion does not automatically dictate what we do here. We have different standards and a different community than the Mario wiki for one, and different methods of handling these type of characters.
 
Ryukama said:
Basically what other people have said
With all due respect to that admin, him thinking something doesn't immediately mean it's true. Especially when he's getting pushed out of an answer from someone who, let's face it, clearly has an agenda.
Click to expand...
So because I disagree with the Gentle Pull existing you're trying to accuse me of having an agenda which is a logical fallacy

Why do I feel like I'm forced to agree with the Gentle Pull existing or risk getting banned?

All Nintendo and Sega always officially reveal their characters that truly exist in their respective franchises.

Gentle Pull doesn't truly exist let's face it. After debating with Metal Mario875 on chat he and I concluded that the Mario Verse doesn't need Gentle Pull to beat the Sonic Verse. Count Bleck, Super Dimentio via Chaos Heart and Paper Mario via Pure Hearts (needs prep) can beat Solaris due to having superior range and Attack Potency though they need the Star Rod to wish that their clones fight Solaris in the past, present and future. Ask Metal Mario875, he knows what he's talking about.

I asked the Mario admin in MarioWiki because I needed unbiased answers to come to a conclusion.
 
And seriously I'm sick and tired of people making Metal Mario875 look like a biased Mario fanboy. I talked with him on chat and I swear that he is the most unbiased Mario fan there is and he knows a lot about the Mario Verse that I consider him the #1 Mario expert of all time.

To one of the admins that said "Super Wario Wank" to one of Metal Mario875's upgrade threads, Shame on you! I felt that he was trying to get on Metal Mario875's bad side. Not funny at all!

And I am sure that Withersoul 235, Paleomario66, etc agree with me.
 
We are getting way off topic. Nobody here is judging you guys or taking this personally. People are simply disagreeing because they have a different opinion regarding whether or not the Gentle Pull can be considered a character. And that's it.

And nobody is going to ban you just because you disagree with them regarding something like a character profile.

I strongly respect both of you, I think that you are cool people and I like debating with you when it happens. I don't think that I tried to make you guys look like fanboys and if I did I apologize.

Let's try to avoid picking up fights needlessly and try to behave like friends instead, shall we,?
 
So because I disagree with the Gentle Pull existing you're trying to accuse me of having an agenda which is a logical fallacy

No. Because you have shown time and time again to be practically obsessed with "Mario vs Sonic" to which many other staff members have pointed out (You're even bringing it up now again when it has no relevence) You've been heated during discussions about the topic in the past. Accused the staff of having a biased motive for creating The Gentle Pull's profile. And tried to use a literal fan character "Sonic Supreme Being" just so TGP doesn't beat Sonicverse.

Despite all these things though, I guess it is uncalled for to make an accusation like that, so I'm very sorry. And regardless of any disagreements, I still really like you. So there is no personal issue there. Again, big apologies for that.

Why do I feel like I'm forced to agree with the Gentle Pull existing or risk getting banned?

I have no idea whatsoever. I never said or implied anything remotely like that. Nor did anyone else. You've told me and others you don't think TGP is a character before. You didn't get banned then. There's nothing at all to worry about in that regard.

All Nintendo and Sega always officially reveal their characters that truly exist in their respective franchises.

As The Gentle Pull was "officially" revealed in Super Mario Galaxy 2.

After debating with Metal Mario875 on chat he and I concluded that the Mario Verse doesn't need Gentle Pull to beat the Sonic Verse. Count Bleck, Super Dimentio via Chaos Heart and Paper Mario via Pure Hearts (needs prep) can beat Solaris due to having superior range and Attack Potency though they need the Star Rod to wish that their clones fight Solaris in the past, present and future.
This is irrelevent. What does "Mario vs Sonic" have to do with anything here?

Ask Metal Mario875, he knows what he's talking about.

I asked the Mario admin in MarioWiki because I needed unbiased answers to come to a conclusion.

I highly respect Metal Mario875 and the MarioWiki admin. I simply do not agree with them on this particular topic. And MarioWiki in particular works very different than how this site does.
 
Sorry, but this is a rather poorly constructed thread that I already addressed with Adamjensen2030 and yet continues the argument with a reference to an admin of an inferior wiki site dedicated to the franchise with an arguement that they don't need them to beat the Sonicverse, a completely unrelated topic. Rosalina was simply referring to the power it has, that being fate and desire. As I told Adam before you, Metal Mario, this not how determining a character tier's or the canoncity of the character work as many of the pages made would not have been made or considered uncanon by that incredibly flawed logic. As Cal and Ryu stated, it's not the word of God that's used to determine how to rate the character or whether they are official. In fact, due to the character being mentioned in a mainstream platformer Mario game. Being referred in only one game, doesn't mean that you aren't a character. Until futher information is applied in future titles in what it actually is, the Gentle Pull page stays. Concept, character, or otherwise. Period.

Adam, you have been constantly warned about your excessive "Mario vs Sonic". We have nothing against you but please stop using it as an excuse for every upgrade/downgrade you support regarding these characters. We follow wiki regulations, not rivialry and history btw the two franchise. Ryu, Dark, Cal, I'm sorry for my lack of activity and all but I'm closing this thread. It's clearly getting out of hand and inevitably hostile over a mere opinion.
 
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