Asura's Wrath: Debunking "Large Star size" Karma Fortress and "Galaxy size" Golden Chakravartin

Rocks75 · May 10, 2015

Well, I made this thread to debunk "Large Star Size" Karma Fortress and "Galaxy Size" Golden Chakravartin, as some people asked me for evidence about it.

I will start with the Karma Fortress.

The Karma Fortress is really huge what was showed in the pic of the Official Complete Works:

However, the game itself, contradicts the size of the Karma Fortress:

http://tgchan.org/kusaba/questdis/src/137357073945.jpg

In the game, the Karma Fortress is not ridiculous huge as the first pic shows it, and a part of the Earth can be showed comparing with the Karma Fortress.

And what the game itself shows >>>>> what the Official Works shows.

The Karma Fortress is huge, yes, but is Large Planet size, not Large Star size.

Now, I will continue with the Golden Chakravartin.

Supposedly, Chakravartin was in the center of the Milk Way Galaxy, and that makes him galaxy size.

No, just no.

If Chakravartin was really galaxy size and he was in the center of the Milk Way Galaxy, he should cover the entire galaxy, and Asura wouldn't need to travel much until to reach him.

Now, proofs that Golden Chakravartin isn't galaxy size.

The first proof is, if Chakravartin were galaxy size, his blats would be much bigger than he fired toward the Earth.

And the second proof is, the large planet that he throwed to Asura.

Here is showed a comparison before Chakravartin is going to throw the large planet toward Asura between the size of that large planet and Golden Chakravartin.

Asura in destructor form is around Uranus' size, and the large planet that Chakravartin throwed to him dwarfed him, so the large planet would be bigger than Jupiter, and close in the size of a small star.

My opinion? The Karma Fortress is large planet size and Golden Chakravartin is Large Star size, or Solar System size at most, but The Karma Fortress isn't Large Star size, and Golden Chakravartin is neither Galaxy Size.

I love Asura's Wrath, and I support the verse, but that doesn't make me to support anything of the verse, because I support the Asura's Wrath verse, but I don't wank the verse.

Unclechairman · May 10, 2015

Who created the Official Works? If they were created by the person or company that created the game, I don't see why they would be any less canon than the game itself.

Probably the reason the Karma Fortress and Chakravartin weren't to scale in the game is because of hardware limitations or other outside issues.

GohanLSSJ2 · May 10, 2015

In other words, the guide (secondary canon) contradicts the game (primary canon).

Well, I'm still on the fence on that. But this seems somewhat solid.

Rocks75 · May 10, 2015

I think if the Karma Fortress would be bigger as the first pic, it would be showed in the game that big, I don't see problem why the Karma Fortress could be that big in the game like in the pic of the Official Works.

And no, if the game contradicts the size of Karma Fortress of other source, the size of Karma Fortress is big as it was showed in the game, in this case, large planet, same case would be for example if the Karma Fortress in the game is large star size, but in other source is showed as planet size, then what should be more accepted? what the game showed, is not only in my case, but majority of people would believe more in the game.

I would believe more in the game than anything of other source.

Besides, Asura's Wrath's God Tiers being galaxy level and above I find it wank, and I have proofs why I think is wank.

If you're not convinced about that, I could get more proofs that debunk the size of the Karma Fortress and Gold Chakravartin.

GohanLSSJ2 · May 10, 2015

Go ahead pal. I'm all ears.

SeiryuShin · May 10, 2015

gameplay limitations is a possible reason for the size difference. several open world MMORPGs for instance are supposed to be an earth like planet yet due to hardward limitations the in game maps only show a world roughly the size of a moon

Antvasima · May 10, 2015

I also think that this sounds legitimate, but on the other hand Chakravartin supposedly gradually created the Asura's Wrath universe. Shouldn't that factor in? Maybe we could use separate columns for the game and guidebook statistics if they contradict each other?

Rocks75 · May 10, 2015

Ok, the large planet that dwarfed Asura in destructor form which is Uranus' size or near that size, if Chakravartin would be galaxy size, that large planet should be much bigger, at least solar system size, which is untrue, but is definitely bigger than Jupiter.

And if Asura were multi-solar system level+ or galaxy level in destructor form, he wouldn't struggle to busting the large star that was approaching to him, and he would destroy casually.

I would accept Asura being solar system level+, but galaxy level and above, I don't think he is that strong.

Rocks75 · May 10, 2015

@Antavasima:

Creating =/= busting.

Kami in Dragon Ball created the moon again, doesn't mean he can destroy it, even Supreme Kais can create stars, they could create a galaxy if they can create planets and stars, but it takes time, you got it? pretty sure Chakravartin created the universe but he took a lot of time.

SeiryuShin · May 10, 2015

I believe I saw that in the book as well as his statements so his strongest form should be galaxy level+ if true

if it's just his personal statement it should be changed to say possibly galaxy level+

Unclechairman · May 10, 2015

So this is another case of guidebook vs primary source...

Honestly, I was wondering how stats from the guidebooks managed to get through, considering the stance we take on guidebooks for anime and manga series; my initial hypothesis was that this particular guidebook was created by the exact same people that created the game, thus making it more reliable, but then the Dragon Ball guidebook by Bird Studios wasn't accepted either, and it's probably the closest thing we'll ever have have to a book entirely by Toriyama himself.

Antvasima · May 10, 2015

I agree with Seiryu that it could be gameplay limitations. Despite its title, Destructive Capacity factors in creation and destruction both. Even if Chakravartin is galaxy level+, that would still be 170 billion galaxies to create for a single universe, which would take an absolutely enormous amount of time. With 10^22 to 10^24 stars in a universe, it does not sound feasible that he would have created them one at a time. Maybe separate columns or parentheses for game and guidebook statistics is the way to go?

Antvasima · May 10, 2015

Inserting a "possibly", as Seiryu suggested, works for me as well.

Rocks75 · May 10, 2015

Yeah, but Asura has at least 12,000 years old, Chakravartin exists much more time than Asura, imagine how long time he existed, it wouldn't be a surprised if he created the universe.

Supposedly Chakravartin has at least millions of years.

Antvasima · May 10, 2015

Well, even if Chakravartin created a galaxy a day, it would take him 465434633.8 years to create a universe. I would see him getting bored far quicker than doing the same thing for over 465 million years. And I definitely don't see his patience lasting if he created one star at a time.

Rocks75 · May 10, 2015

Well, that's why I said Chakravartin has at least millions of years, and well, is probably right about his patience.

But is pretty vague to say Chakravartin is Universe level because he created a universe, as it wasn't showed how he created the universe, not to mention he didn't show any universal busting feat.

Antvasima · May 10, 2015

No, no. I am just saying that he is probably multi-galaxy level, or at least galaxy level, not solar system level. That would take enormously longer than the age of our universe to do.

Rocks75 · May 10, 2015

Yeah, but if Chakravartin would be galaxy level, then there is Asura's large star busting feat, which is the best feat in Asura's Wrath in terms of busting, and Asura struggled to busting that large star, he didn't busted the star in one shot, and Asura in Destructor form was equal to Gold Chakravartin.

I'm not trying to sound like an asshole, but just giving my points about Asura's Wrath power.

Antvasima · May 10, 2015

Yes, there seem to be contradictions here, so maybe we should state within parenthesis after the "galaxy+ to multi-galaxy+" statistics: "(Based upon the guidebooks, and the fact that Chakravartin supposedly created a universe, but the greatest in-game feat was of star-busting level.)" Or something like that?

Sheoth · May 10, 2015

This is really solid.

I mean I like the series, and think the game was kickass, but the official works are clear contradictions to what is literally shown in game, which is the primary canon.

Of course it could have been gameplay limitations, but I really doubt it. However, if that is the case, then I would agree to putting the "possibly" connotation before the listed tiers.

Antvasima · May 10, 2015

I am also fine with "possibly".

DarkLK · May 10, 2015

But you can't scale the foreground object from the background object. Background stars far smaller than foreground Earth. But this is just perspective.

Rocks75 · May 10, 2015

What? I'm not scaling the Karma Fortress from the background, I'm scaling it from the Earth.

DarkLK · May 10, 2015

I mean, you can not use such scaling in order to refute it.

With the same success you could "refute" the size of stars by comparing them with Earth in this picture.

It is quite obvious that the Karma Fortress can be much farther than Earth in this picture. This is perspective.

Rocks75 · May 10, 2015

No, the stars are far, far away than the Karma Fortress and Earth.

The Karma Fortress looks like he is in front of Earth, otherwise if the Karma Fortress would be a little further and bigger like in the first pic, the Moon should be visible.

DarkLK · May 10, 2015

Moon can be behind Earth in the blind spot.

The_Living_Tribunal1 · May 10, 2015

this has been an issue of controversy for a long time

CrossverseCrisis · May 10, 2015

So Rocks if all of us were take your word on this, were would we have to put Asura,Chakravartin, hell even Vlitra, Deus, and Yasha at then? Scale them back down to Star level(+), maybe Solar System to "Possibly" Galaxy level for Asura and Chakra then?

Rocks75 · May 11, 2015

I would say Solar System, likely much higher since Asura in destructor form destroyed a large star.

But one of the reasons that I doubt about if they're galaxy level is that Asura in destructor form destroyed a large star with some difficult, and you know the gap between star busting and galaxy busting is huge. A galaxy buster would destroy a star with no effort at all.

GohanLSSJ2 · May 11, 2015

Well, so far this seems pretty solid. I guess that Galaxy busting may be too much for Asura or Chakravartin.

CrossverseCrisis · May 11, 2015

So it's Solar System level, likely much higher for CHakravartin and Asura then. And i assume that if we go by what the game has shown us, Deus, Yasha, and Vlitra would be Large planet level+ to maybe low or mid Star Level then?

Rocks75 · May 11, 2015

Yeah, pretty much.

CrossverseCrisis · May 11, 2015

One question Rocks75: Does Asura and Chakravartin have at least a chance going against the "God-tiers" of Dragon Ball then, at least where there're at now before Dragon Ball Super comes out?

Rocks75 · May 11, 2015

They are pretty much above Buu Saga, so yeah.

GohanLSSJ2 · May 11, 2015

Fair enough. They are a worthy opponent for the God-Tiers indeed. However, going by this debunking, the Animeverse of Dragon Ball still wipes the floor with them.

CrossverseCrisis · May 11, 2015

Okay. Not that i'm trying to start an argument with you or anything as we both like Asura's Wrath, but i just didn't want Asura and Chakravartin to be beaten by Dragon Ball(i'm not a hater of the series, it's just the fanboys and wankers that ruin Goku's, and to a large extent, Dragon Balls image for me, that's why).

I won't mind the downgrade for Asura since if anything, i could personally scale him higher(not his page on this site itself, mind you), since his power, like Hulk's for example, come from him getting angry, right? Now for Chakravartin...now i would like to see Bill's destroying Chakra's arrogant Buddha behind to kingdom here.

GohanLSSJ2 · May 11, 2015

CrossverseCrisis said:
Okay. Not that i'm trying to start an argument with you or anything as we both like Asura's Wrath, but i just didn't want Asura and Chakravartin to be beaten by Dragon Ball(i'm not a hater of the series, it's just the fanboys and wankers that ruin Goku's, and to a large extent, Dragon Balls image for me, that's why).
I won't mind the downgrade for Asura since if anything, i could personally scale him higher(not his page on this site itself, mind you), since his power, like Hulk's for example, come from him getting angry, right? Now for Chakravartin...now i would like to see Bill's destroying Chakra's arrogant Buddha behind to kingdom here.

I grew up`watching Dragon Ball, and frankly nothing wankers or fanboys (or on the other hand, haters and downplayers) will ruin it for me, no matter how irritated I might get at them. That said, Asura's Wrath is a damn fun game and I kinda like it.

Yeah, Asura's power increases with his anger like the Hulk, same as Gohan. And I agree, Chakravartin is an ass, but as it stands, he and Beerus may be evenly matched. That fight might end up causing great havok throughout the Galaxy, though; Whis will have his hands full trying to clean up the mess those two would leave behind.

CrossverseCrisis · May 11, 2015

@GohanLSSJ2: That is true about the wankers and fanboys part...wait now that you mention it, i haven't seen much Goku or DBZ wanking as much as i use to see the past year(not unless its on Youtube).

Asura: I can see him and Hulk getting more stronger if they were to continue to get angrier. Not sure about Gohan tho. Still i mean he did got down right powerful when he went Hulk-Smash mode(i.e his SSJ2 form) on Cell. May Kami bless his soul(?) that he was tough enough to withstand Gohan's strikes.

Chakravartin: Such an ass for basically ruining Asura's life since the universe's beginning. For him to still be Bill's level is still amazing since that would mean only Whis, Freiza in his golden form, and Goku & Vegeta in their SSGSS forms that will have to handle him then....okay maybe just Whis then.

Antvasima · May 11, 2015

Well, I still think that we should have separate stats (within parentheses) for the games and handbook.

CrossverseCrisis · May 11, 2015

@Antvasima: You think that's a good idea? It makes since if it used for characters like Cole or Gogeta but i'm not quite sure for if it was used for the top and god tiers of Asura's Wrath.

Asura's Wrath: Debunking "Large Star size" Karma Fortress and "Galaxy size" Golden Chakravartin

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