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Sonic: Super Forms Speed Upgrade Cont.

The Current Arguments (Up To Date)

To summarize...

Super Sonic and Burning Blaze travel interstellar distances to fight Eggman and Eggman Nega before the two universes fully merge and the Eggmen create Eggmanland "beyond this dimension" (which means universe in this context). Here is the calculatio.

For Speed Upgrade

  • As Super Sonic and Burning Blaze approach their fight with the Eggmen, there are no celestial bodies visible in the darkness as they approach The Exception. If there are no celestial bodies, this implies they've left their universe to approach The Exception.
    • Counter: This is just a shared transitional screen across the game. (Addressed below)
  • The Eggmen state they'll create Eggmanland "beyond this dimension", hinting at their fight taking place outside of the universe when lined up with the previous point.
    • Counter: The Eggmen state they'll do this after they defeat Sonic and Blaze (Addressed below)
  • Super Sonic and Burning Blaze are flung back into opposite directions after the fight concludes, showing that they weren't anywhere in a position where one was in their home universe.


Against Speed Upgrade

  • They could've used a form of teleportation to take a shortcut to The Exception.
    • Counter: This goes against Occam's Razor, and all we see is them flying rather than using Chaos Control or the likes.
  • A "rift" by definition has to be inside of something. Therefore, The Exception is somewhere within the universe
    • Counter: We use the term "rift" for simplicity's sake, but never within the game is The Exception called a rift of any sort anywhere. The only time it's referred to as a rift is on the Sonic Wiki, which makes this argument fall flat.
  • The Eggmen couldn't have been out of the universe because they say they'll build the amusement park after they defeat Sonic.
    • Counter: Them stating they'll defeat Super Sonic and Burning Blaze before building Eggmanland in no way correlates to their positioning or the distance they travelled.
  • This feat was calculated by other members before, such as DontTalk. We shouldn't need a recalculation of this feat.
    • Counter: Something done long ago is not the be-all end-all of a calc when different pieces of info can be unearthed and context can change. Additionally, the assumptions the old calc made are wildly different and even caused it to be rejected iirc.
  • The universes merging don't necessesarily need to happen at the edges due to being lined up at a 5th dimensional axis.
    • Counter: That takes many more assumptions and goes against Occam's Razor, as the game implies a clear-cut merge beginning at the edges of their worlds and the seperation at the edges when the final boss concludes.
  • Super Sonic and Burning Blaze "leaving the universe" is just a shared transitional scene across the game.
    • Counter: False. Sonic and Blaze's normal boss fights begin like this, with blue and green streams and a transitional screen that is obviously just aesthetic. With Super Sonic and Burning Blaze, however, they have something completely different that actually perfectly aligns itself with where the battle is supposed to take place. The thing we see them approach and the area the boss battle takes place in is one in the same. There is no comparison to draw from.
  • We don't know how far Super Sonic and Burning Blaze travelled, even if it was outside the universe. Therefore, the feat is unquantifiable.
    • Counter: By taking a look at a clip of the feat, we can see that the surrounding darkness around The Exception dwarfs The Exception itself. Not only this, but there seem to be no repercussions of this formation just yet, implying a long distance between The Exception and Sonic's universe.
  • The graphics are bad, so the transitional scene to The Exception is clearly just a limitation of them. If it had better graphics, it would look different.
    • Counter: No. Just... No.
 
Just copying this over from the old thread.

ShakeResounding said:
The universe is confirmed to have edges in the sense that it's confirmed to have an explicit non-infinite size that can be physically entered and exited, so it's safe to say yes. The franchise has elaborated on that in different titles.
Click to expand...
Non-infinite size means nothing regarding edges. Can I get a source on the entered and exited via 3D movement?

And if you exit it that way where do you go? Hopefully not other universes?

Also, is universe in this case the same as the space-time continuum?
 
Right here. For context, the reality of the Arabian Nights is an alternate reality. The term "world" is a phrase that's commonly synonymous with universe/dimension within the series. No hints of outside help, no fancy techniques or anything, just comments in regards to physical movement.

Unfortunately, what's at the exit is left ambiguous.

I'm umsure what you mean by this question, sorry. I'm pretty sure it's just an exit of the physical universe and has no tampering in regards to space-time. I could be understanding this wrong, my apologies.
 
Hmmm I see....

Reality contains Dimensions in case of things like the Space-Time Continuum With makes up the Physical World/Worlds within it, the dimensions of space may vary though but the standard is 4 dimensions. That's in Sonic and is established that way.

These are held within the mantle of time and space, meaning time and space itself as is described in Sonic 06 are concepts not dimensions because if that was the case the Spacetime Continuum wouldn't exist in Space and Time but above it.

Anyhow A Spacetime Continuum is considered by default to be 4 dimensional.

The Topic is about the Egg Salmander, the "building an EggmanLand Beyond this Dimension" does work in context with the cosmology they aren't talking about another planet or anything because the whole context regarding that end is about the Spacetime Continuum and how the way the Eggman are using it warps Passed it and if the Spacetime Continuum keeps expanding both worlds of sonic and blaze will be destroyed as the other Spacetime Continuum from Blaze's world will collide, so it's a collision of 4th Dimensional objects and The Eggman want move to the phase of going beyond them.

I'm not sure how that part works out though. But it's definitely in context to the cosmology.
 
TheRedEyeOfChaos said:
Zamasu Chan said:
@Red I'm sorry but what are you on about?
Click to expand...
Not sure, I've attempted to narrow down the system of Sonic The Hedgehog to decide who I agree with, Shake has it down so far.

Nice to meet you.
Click to expand...
Well nice to meet you too but try not to dreail the thread ok?
 
Not sure, I've attempted to narrow down the system of Sonic The Hedgehog to decide who I agree with, Shake has it down so far.

Nice to meet you.

Well nice to meet you too but try not to dreail the thread ok?

I understand.
 
ShakeResounding said:
Right here. For context, the reality of the Arabian Nights is an alternate reality. The term "world" is a phrase that's commonly synonymous with universe/dimension within the series. No hints of outside help, no fancy techniques or anything, just comments in regards to physical movement.
Click to expand...
If that's all the evidence there is I would assume that the universe doesn't have edges and along the many adventures he had while running he eventually found a way to get back in some other manner than reaching an edge.

The reason for that is that no current cosmological model assumes that a universe has an edge. That a universe has one is a very unnatural assumption in fact, as that would raise the question what is beyond the border and why that which is beyond the border is not counted as part of the universe as well.

This is even more the case in terms of a spacetime continuum, which per definition is the whole three dimensions of space + time. If you can run somewhere using only 3 dimensional movement that means that it is part of the three dimensions of space, meaning any place that could be reached like that would be part of it. So if Eggmanland is not part of the spacetime continuum either than it can by definition not be reached by 3D travel.


Of course an author doesn't have to use the real life definition of terms. However, it is a big assumption that they don't and there should be good evidence against it.

If the universes in sonic were all part of the same 3 dimensional space (i.e. if they are connected by a path that can be traversed using only 3D movement) that would have consequences for tiering as well. I have for example seen that a character of the verse is ranked multiversal for merging universes. However, the tiering system demands such universes to be "isolated space-time continua" for that to count, meaning that they may not lie within the same 3 dimensional space. (In fact even a Low 2-C ranking demands destruction of something "qualitatively larger than an infinitely sized 3-dimensional expanse").

Such an exception is something we usually don't really consider, just because the assumption that "universes" or even spacetime continuums lie within the same 3D space is so unnatural.


All in all my point is that it seems much more plausible to assume that Sonic found a way to warp between spacetimes at some point of his travels, than that the universe has an edge when it shouldn't.

And if there is no edge the entire feat doesn't really work in the end. So all in all I'm with DDM, I think.
 
@Don't Talk

The fact the universes were being merged was the reason they were part of the same space in this game in expecific, this is why in Rush Adventure they needed a ship to travel back but in this game not

Also the universe Shake linked was the Arabian Nights, which is a universe in a book, Sonic is talking about running through it's stories to get home
 
Regarding cosmology: Structure of the Universe

"Does the Universe have an edge, beyond which there is nothing?
Galaxies extend as far as we can detect... with no sign of diminishing.There is no evidence that the universe has an edge. The part of the universe we can observe from Earth is filled more or less uniformly with galaxies extending in every direction as far as we can see - more than 10 billion light-years, or about 6 billion trillion miles. We know that the galaxies must extend much further than we can see, but we do not know whether the universe is infinite or not. When astronomers sometimes refer (carelessly!) to galaxies "near the edge of the universe," they are referring only to the edge of the OBSERVABLE universe - i.e., the part we can see."

The plausibility that they warped to arrive where they were is just not there given all evidence and the location they arrive at via a cosmological 3-D model to our own universe would be the baseline past the "edge".

Unless you are going to tell me that their universe's 3-D space literally is infinite in scope of galaxies around their planet, something that can be simply ruled out by them physically travelling to where they went would still be within their universe's 3-D as being a standard model of at least going past the numerous galaxies / nebula surrounding Earth, this feat is quantifiable. The model that their 3-D space in Sonic/Blaze local universes each have infinite matter in them is not given either way, as per what we can tell.

They are shown physically moving during the middle of travel as they are close to approaching at the place they are wanting to go to and as much as this needs to be pointed out; the only rebuttal is "dimensional travel can appear physical". -_-;

Like, excuse me, that takes more assumptions than what we get. Occam's razor equally supports an assumption that they could've found a time warp plate too if we are reaching that far.

If you are assuming the Eggmen stating they would be "beyond this dimension" as a 4-D scenario that alone isn't even a concrete assumption that solidly states they were porting / dimensionally travelling before killing Sonic and Blaze at Exception if we see no porting done on-screen, meaning it would still be the safest assumption as where they ended up as a place traversable in their universes 3-D space even allowing that the space had become part of the same at that point. Hell, Cal was arguing that the beyond this dimension part would be post fight and post the current dimension they were in being destroyed first off. This is flip flopping on a point that was argued from the beginning by the side that thought the calc was wrong.

The Secret Rings scenario has more plausibility for dimensional travel seeing as he got teleported there initially by a genie and it is concrete as his location is another reality entirely, something that can be handwaved here past the dimension being left biz, which I can totally see being 4-D if we argue the meaning of dimension there if it meant porting prior to the fight, but the context shown and stated here points to nothing more than just standard flight beyond a lot of unfounded speculation at where they arrive in transit.
 
And we don't know where the starting location of the 3-D tear is. Otherwise, DontTalk basically summed up my thoughts perfectly.
 
>can't see any celestial objects around where the (what as best as we can tell without massively reaching) within the same 3-D space they started within is at

>what the observable universe radius is
 
Um, Mephistus literally replied with something directly addressing DontTalk. DontTalk has only said one thing, the discussion on that front hasn't even gotten a full start, saying "it was rejected" would be prematurely concluding this thread.
 
Antvasima said:
It seems like this has been rejected.
Click to expand...
No, it hasn't, Don't Talk admited he didn't knew much and said he thinks DDM is right based on what he knows, but Mephistos directely replied to his points, so we should wait for him to reply back with the new info in mind
 
Well, let's hope that DTDT is still subscribing to this thread then.
 
The thread should only be closed if there's a conclusion. If Don't Talk left the thread where it is now it'd be inconclusive.
 
Burden of proof is on the claim that they used a portal / tear in space time or chaos control or other 4-D travel to get where they were isn't simply shown on-screen, what is shown is 3-D simple movement upon close arrival to the spot, which doesn't imply what is being suggested as 4-D travel to debunk this feat. Occam's razor here.

The Exception itself isn't definitively stated to be within another different seperate reality / 4-D location / disconnected 3-D space than where Sonic started at like Arabian Nights; that is entirely on speculation of the meaning of the Eggmen's quote and headcanon of them porting away into a different 4-D location offscreen, something which even Cal argued the Eggmen travelling beyond their dimension (let's say here it is their local 4th dimension in context for the heck of it) to create an equivalent 4-D "world" as they come from parallel "worlds" which would only definitely occur after they had their hands on both sets of magic stones that they needed to make said "world". They didn't yet and needed to defeat Sonic and Blaze first, which lends to that they didn't leave the local 4-D they were in yet because they had yet to create the new 4-D world they are supposedly fighting Sonic and Blaze within since they didn't have the gem sets yet. So them still being in the same local 4-D / world they start within during the entire trip to fly to Exception is supported and as is where the Exception is being within the same local 4-D space. They themselves just fly off screen to the right in their mecha. We don't really have any reason to think they had definitively left their 4th dimension yet given nothing directly showing/stating it.

Apparently we might get more info from the jap guidebook about what transpired past the visuals but as it stands I don't see why this should be put on hold unless we want to seriously state dimensional travel was used only because we don't see a substantial amount of the entire travel.
 
The first paragraph isn't something relevant, that's just a bunch of commonly asked things about the universe.

Once again, the location of Exception isn't "At the edge of the Universe" it's "Outside the Universe". And not just outside the Observable Universe but outside the Space-Time Continuum. But as DTDT said, it doesn't matter if the Universe has an infinite amount of 3-D space because Space-Time Continuums are technically unquantifiable larger than even High 3-A levels of space. The only true "edges" a space-time continuum really has if any are a beginning of time and an end of time. Empty spaces don't logically have edges.

The Secret Rings example is definite proof that it's just dimensional travel given he was initially warped to the "Space-Time Continuum condensed in a book". And that him finding a warp portal makes more sense than assuming he just ran to the edge of the Universe then through the spatial barrier, than went from the edge of the Universe to Earth. But here is not that much different. You don't have to fly through the edge of the Universe to fly through the dimensional barrier. It's the same thing as assuming someone needs to run a lap around the Earth to the East or West before they can rake a few steps north or south. We don't assume 4-D distance is beyond observable Universe.

And before you use the, "The difference is that the two timelines are being merged into one thus turning it into a quilted multiverse." You're the ones who brought up the Secret Rings example, where the very beginning was Sonic getting teleported to their Universe by the genie. But that's the exact same beginning as Blaze's story where she was instantly teleported to Sonic's world.

"We see them physically move across space with no celestial bodies." That doesn't mean anything. We see them leaving a white spiral and approaching a purple spiral too. Seconds before that, we see the background look like that as they're transforming; they're standing on white panels with a black background. Are we going to assume the flew beyond the edge of the observable Universes in base forms? Or are we just going to assumed the Earth's sky and grounds just magically turned black? Anyway, different fictional works have they own methods of how 4-D space travel works; some show a vortex like background, while others can even make it look like standards space travel with a generic background.

Anyway, it doesn't matter whether or not DontTalk is knowledgeable on the verse. However, he is knowledgable on all the standards of the explained feats put together. He's knowledgeable on our flying from one Universe to the other feats regardless of whether or not the two universes are merged, he's knowledgeable on how a Universes/multiverses structure is generally assumed based on 2 or more of them merging together. And based on all of these analogies, the calculation is dependent on way to many standard assumptions being ignored.

But we can wait for him to comment again.
 
Truth Bullets said:
The thread should only be closed if there's a conclusion. If Don't Talk left the thread where it is now it'd be inconclusive.
Click to expand...
Well, you could ask him to respond here again if he takes a long time.
 
Shake used the ending of Secret Rings, the one where Sonic ra back to his universe, stop purposely saying things wrong about the others arguments

Nobody said his oppinion didn't matter or anything like that because he didn't know the series, but because he doesn't know the full context of the series and the feat, which he himself said, hell he even ended his post with I think, which isn't being certain

The rest of your post isn't "relevant" as well, just repeating previous arguments from yourself and others with fancy wording to appear new, so I rather wait for the "expert" oppinion
 
It is relevant if the lingo here is 3-D spatial dimensions is being clearly mixed up with where the universe physically ends regarding matter and that "edge". You are arguing a spatial dimension being left when that's wholly not supported here during the feat based on context.

Again, that assumption doesn't work when their destination isn't confirmed in another 4-D world that isn't yet to be made by the Eggmans. They start on Earth. The claim that the distance is travelled by some method of teleportation in this case isn't supported as the world has yet to be made.

The scene being black around them during the transformations literally doesnt debunk the simple transition. especially since it doesn't make sense to selectively black out everything but the characters and yet Exception and the single light they fly away from from is surrounded by blackness. I am not going to seriously argue with you that for some reason if there were celestial bodies supposed to be shown in the scene, every single celestial body was selectively blacked out bar the luminous as fork Exception and that single light. That is reaching farther than the assumption they flew into a portal or did porting off-screen, an assumption entirely contradicted when their method of travel is simply shown as flight upon arrival.

Again, let's see a specific scan stating their is infinite physical matter in either of their universes. I'll wait.

Aaand nary a scan of infinite matter. Yeah I'll wait for more input.
 
@Mephistus, there doesn't need to be a scan because it's not the relevant point. The relevant point is "Traveling outside this dimension" =/= flying to the edge of the universe in seconds as the standard assumption, case closed.

@TheUser, you're the one making personal attacks with the bold accusations. Claiming I'm "purposely saying things wrong" is factually incorrect and a blatant mis-characterization of me. Anyway, that example still doesn't hold any wait or water when addressing this feat. So in other words, stop derailing the thread with the accusations.
 
No, that's not a personal attack, that's a attack against your arguments, which is true and you done so, it's not incorrect nor wrong, you said the argument wrong to make yours look better, which wasn't the case, if you didn't do it on "purpose" then whatever, also I never said you were attacking anyone for you to say "No, you are the attacker"

"No it doesn't" is not a argument, I can just say "yes it is" and that's just as good of a counter
 
I might have misunderstood or forgotten minor details, but absolutely positively not have I ever have I deliberately spread false information. I never do that, ever. I always state my own honest understanding and opinion. So in other words, it is an attack.
 
I say what I see, and it always looks like it however you like it or say it isn't, because you still are spreading false information, even if not on purpose, a attack yes but based on facts, that aren't even relevant to the main discussion, my "attack" was a "minor" part you are focusing instead of the rest of my arguments, in other words derraling

Also don't act superior, many staff including yourself have called people way worse than that ""'"attack""""
 
  • sigh*
The scene is entirely too vague and a lot of assumptions are being made. I don't know why this is still going enough to warrant another thread. I'm reading what's practically the same regurgitated arguments.
 
We understood that the first ten times you said that, it's still going on because a conclusion hasn't been reached, stop complaining about people repeating themselfs when you do the same
 
Is somebody willing to ask DontTalkDT to comment here again via his message wall?
 
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