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Characters who (possibly) scale to Gogeta Blue

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ArachDusa

ArachDusa

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I've always been confused about Gogeta's profile listing his Super Saiyan Blue form being "possibly" 2-C since this addition was made to his profile, especially since it was saying Gogeta Blue easily defeated Legendary Super Saiyan Broly who is stronger than Beerus, even though neither LSS Broly nor Beerus were listed as 2-C or possibly 2-C. When I first saw it, I thought "oh, they probably changed Broly's tier and then changed it back and forgot to change Gogeta's, I'm sure they'll change it later so I don't need to point this out." That was several weeks ago and so far it hasn't changed. I was just about to make a thread asking why it is so, but then, completely on accident, I noticed the note in Gogeta's page explaining why he might be 2-C. Whoops.

But I still have a few questions. If Gogeta being significantly stronger than someone who is considered stronger than Beerus is grounds to consider the possibility that he's twice as strong as Beerus, then shouldn't Jire also have this rating? Statements about Jiren being stronger than a God of Destruction are far more consistent than the ones about Broly, and many of them came from before Jiren showcased even a fraction of his true power. He is also far above various other universal characters, again, before even unleashing his full power. And on top of that, Goku achieves Ultra Instinct and stomps Jiren, who then breaks his limits and surpasses Goku again. That looks like a lot more evidence for Ultra Instinct Goku and Jiren being 2-C than Broly.

Knowing all this, I think we should either remove the "Possibly 2-C" part from Gogeta's profile or add a similar note to at least Limit Breaker Jiren and Ultra Instinct Goku, even if there is a good argument for Gogeta being stronger than Goku and Jiren. If anyone thinks otherwise, they're welcome to explain why.
 
I agree with this, Jiren and MUI should be At least Low 2-C since Base Jiren > Belmod and Belmod in DB media be Anime or Manga isn't considered to be any weaker than Beerus, plus he should be able to replicate this same feat that bumped everyone to the very highest end of Low 2-C.

Even the wiki has all 12 GoDs in the Anime at a similar level so having MUI Goku Low 2-C while Gogeta Blue 2-C is kinda faulty logic imo.
 
Gogeta Blue and MUI Goku are completely different cases. MUI Goku is barely above UBW Jiren who scales above Beerus. Meanwhile, Gogeta Blue stomped LSSJ Broly (who is above Beerus), with the novel even adding he stomped him while holding back a lot. So they are totally not comparable.

Also, Dragon Ball Wiki isn't a realiable source, they still think GT and Heroes are as canon as Super.
 
MUI Goku casually stomped Base Jiren who is above Belmod who is at least comparable to Beerus, so the cases aren't totally different. Goku and Jiren should get an at least Low 2-C rating as they are a lot stronger than someone who is Half 2-C.

And btw I refer to vsbw, this wikia has all the GoDs at a similar level (which I don't necessarily agree with, but either way no reason to assume Beerus >>>> Belmod when even the Manga depicts them as comparable).
 
I suggested in past CRT that everyone who is above or comparable GoD should get At Least Low 2-C yet it was rejected by AKM Sama. Only, SSB Gogeta and Angels got upgraded.

Instead of a AP upgrade, all GoD (Except Toppo) there Range was upgraded to Low Multiversal (with attacks/shockwaves and ki blasts)
 
A CRT was made a while ago. Goku and Jiren were rejected because they are not "much stronger than Beerus" No one scales to Gogeta besides angels class and above.

Honestly, a lot of people were against the idea of upgrading Gogeta but the staff went with it anyway.
 
@ProudLearner and @ZERO7772.

That logic is still kinda faulty, there's some things to still consider:

-I think it was argued and agreed here that all GoDs in the Anime have the same or similar power, even their profiles scale to the exact same feat of Half 2-C.

-Yet they still say UBW Jiren and MUI Goku only MIGHT be stronger than GoDs, when it was implied a lot of times that Jiren is already above his GoD which is Belmod. Before anyone even knowing about his UBW state. Even UIO was in the domain of the Gods.

Sooo UBW Jiren >= Beerus but Base Jiren > Belmod? Even when the GoDs here are regarded as similar?

I think UBW/MUI should get an At least Low 2-C rating.

Oh, and some DBS characters need an range upgrade. UIO1 Goku up to GoD Toppo to Universal+, while Jiren/UIO3 and up Low Multiversal as they scale to GoDs. Range is usually similar to AP in DB.
 
The anime is pretty undeceive about where Ultra instinct lies in comparsion to the GoDs. First UI Sign was supposedly a state that the Gods "fears" but later they refer to third UI Sign and UI simply as "Domain of Gods" and "The breaking power of Gods"

Most DB media compared Compete UI Goku to Beerus and frankly the anime never made a comparison between Goku and Beerus but we do know that Goku at his peak earned the respect and admiration of Beerus so that's a thing.

Jiren went from barely keeping up with UI Goku to barely overpowering him so it's not like he got a "REALLY HUGE" boost to believe Beerus schooling Belmod won't be possible.
 
An argument could be made for Broly being stronger than Jiren using the novel .

It's a mess really.
 
IMO

The scale should look like this based on what was shown in the show

MUI Goku >= UBW Jiren > Base Jiren >= UIO3 Goku >= GoDs top tiers (Beerus, Belmod, Champa, Quitela) = Half 2-C or extremely high Low 2-C individually

Based on this what we should have is at Least Low 2-C' for UIO3 Goku and Base Jiren since while they are implied to be stronger than the gods there is no indication that they are twice the power of the gods. We should honestly have a Possibly 2-C rating for MUI Goku and UBW Jiren since they surpassed the forms that were implied to surpass the gods to some degree. And I 100% with @Omegas03 since we do have several quotes in the show that place Jiren over a god whom is comparable to Beerus than Broly's one quote of being "probably" stronger than Beerus which should also give Broly an at least Low 2-C rating since there's a possibility that he very well could be stronger than Beerus.
 
I use Jiren as the point of reference as he was always referred to be above the GoDs, a lot of times. Multiple Anime feats and statements should be > Promo material and 1 Broly statement overall. Even if Goku isn't compared to Beerus we got Jiren who Goku scales to and got a lot of statements which are even supported by Whis and Belmod.

Also UBW is a large boost considering MUI totally overpowered Base Jiren but UBW got the best out of MUI Goku.
 
I use Jiren as the point of reference as he was always referred to be above the GoDs, a lot of times. Multiple Anime feats and statements should be > Promo material and 1 Broly statement overall. Even if Goku isn't compared to Beerus we got Jiren who Goku scales to and got a lot of statements which are even supported by Whis and Belmod.

Also UBW is a large boost considering MUI totally overpowered Base Jiren but UBW got the best out of MUI Goku.

I don't disagree. Jiren got a lot of w@nk at first but the the show later shut up about it and they stuck to "Oh Jiren is so amazing" to gauge his power.

Jiren got outmatched but he tanked every hit UI Goku landed on him without much damage. It's not like UI Goku was one shot him and then UBW Jiren came and did the same.
 
None of this makes sense unless Beerus is stronger than Belmod.

  • Belmod believes nobody can defeat Base Jiren and considers Jiren to be stronger
  • Frieza judges SS Broly to be the strongest
  • Broly is advertised as surpassing the Gods of Destruction and being the strongest foe in history
  • Yet Goku judges Broly as possibly surpassing Beerus
  • Whis claims Belmod is stronger than Beerus (albeit Beerus contests it as a feat of power)
So if we were to go based on what's presented we have to think the scaling is something like:

Belmod >/= LB Jiren >/= FPSS Broly >/= Beerus >/= Jiren >/= SS Broly

In other words, if all of these statements and scaling were accurate, there would be no real way to claim or justify that Belmod, Jiren, Broly and Beerus have any notable power differences...which is obviously wrong.

A simple solution is to simply say that Beerus is actually far stronger than Belmod, which is what I think, but this has been contested considerably in the past on the wiki due to the Whis statement and a belief that the GoDs should be considered all comparable.

LB Jiren = FPSS Broly > Beerus > Jiren > Belmod

But if this is incorrect, and Belmod and Beerus are actually comparable we get:

LB Jiren >> Jiren > FPSS Broly >/= Beerus = Belmod

And if Belmod is, in fact, superior to Beerus:

LB Jiren >> Jiren > Belmod > FPSS Broly >/= Beerus

Effectively speaking, there seems to be a massive gap between Jiren and Broly in the latter two interpretations, whereas the first assumption has Jiren and Broly as being comparable at their peaks. Which seems more reasonable to me.

Overall, the anime, novel and film have made a terrible mess out of the scaling for these four characters.
 
Frieza never fought Jiren at his max though, and Broly being advertised as the strongest foe doesn't matter to actual feats and statements imo. If we take that statement in account SSJ Broly would be above all Jiren, GoDs and UI when only SSJFP got that statement.

I believe the last two interpretations are the best as both scale to the GoDs via having beyond-GoD statements

And yeah, the gap would be big in the last two interpretations but it doesn't look all that bad when Gogeta has an even higher advantage over Broly. And considering only three characters would have an good advantage over the GoDs and Broly (Jiren, Goku and Gogeta. All with their Absolute Maximum Power though).

I agree with the scaling being a horrible mess and that's why I prefer ignoring the novel because it actually contradicts a lot of what happened both in the Anime or Movie. Until there's more info revealed I'll go by Base Jiren >/= SSJFP Broly >/= Beerus and Belmod (upper tier GoDs). I don't completely disregard UBW Jiren being in the same ballpark as Broly and Beerus though.
 
Frieza never fought Jiren at his max though,

Frieza can sense Ki, so it's all based on whether or not he was conscious for Jiren vs Goku but we can't prove when he woke up, so I'll drop this point as futile.

I believe the last two interpretations are the best as both scale to the GoDs via having beyond-GoD statements

The gap between FPSS Broly and SS Broly is ridiculous, considering FPSS Broly pushed Gogeta to use Blue. The gap is at least dozens of times.

The gap between SS Broly and SSB Goku seems to be around 50x.

Overall, the gap between FPSS Broly and Post-ToP SSB Goku is, at minimum, thousands of times and around dozens to hundreds of times for KKX20 Blue.

Overall, it just comes off as nutty for UIS Goku and Base Jiren to be THAT much stronger, without factoring in UI and LB which is why I struggle to accept those interpretations.

But yeah, it all pretty much comes down to which statements you consider more valid which is why people's scaling can vary so much when it comes to Broly and Jiren.
 
I think the multiplier problem can be brought up the other way around. I mean, IIRC you have SSJ Broly around Base Jiren/UIO3 Goku ballpark, then if UBW Jiren and SSJFP Broly also have the same power then MUI Goku would also be from dozens to hundreds of times stronger than UIO3 Goku/Base Jiren which sounds kinda iffy to say the least. MUI and UI have a huge difference in power but isn't in one shot/finger flick range. Whilst you could argue Base Jiren being extremely casual even in the 3v1 fight and going actually serious almost before Goku mastered UI. From what he showed and statements about him he can perfectly be as strong as I am saying compared to SSB IMO.

But well, it goes up to interpretations. Maybe one day they'll retcon Beerus to still be the strongest rendering all current arguments useless, lolol.
 
If Beerus gets retconned to be above Gogeta then Jiren and UI Sign Goku >>>> Gogeta Blue, Broly and whoever Goku is going to face after that. Jiren is the man and no amount of fusions are changing that
 
MUI and UI have a huge difference in power but isn't in one shot/finger flick range.

IDK about that. Base Jiren trashed UIS Goku to the point that he couldn't escape a barrage, Goku had to trigger UI and proceeded to completely stomp around Jiren with ease.

UI Goku >> Base Jiren >> UIS Goku

It comes down to it being very well possible for UI Goku to one shot UIS Goku, IMO.

Base Jiren being extremely casual even in the 3v1 fight and going actually serious almost before Goku mastered UI. From what he showed and statements about him he can perfectly be as strong as I am saying compared to SSB IMO.

Gogeta's base form has been scaled to being akin to Post-ToP SSB Goku and his SS form as 50x higher than that. We can say SS2 is likely more than 2x SS based on Gohan scaling, as well as SS3 being at least 2x that.

50 x 2 = at least 100x

at least 100 x 2 = at least 200x

And we can agree SSG should have a big gap compared to SS3, let's toss another 2x figure.

at least 200 x 2 = at least 400x

And SSB is known to be SS x SSG, meaning:

at least 400 x 50 = 20,000x

This means SSB Gogeta is at least 20,000x more powerful than SSB Goku, and at least 1,000x more powerful than KKX20 SSB Goku.

We know Base Jiren was fighting seriously against UIS3 Goku and stomped him down, but how strong was UIS? We might never really know for sure but to claim he is over 20,000x the power of Post-ToP Goku Blue, prior to breaking his limits, is pretty crazy. That implies UIS is in the ballpark of a 10,000x+ boost over Blue.

Discussions like this really put into perspective how little thought is put into Dragon Ball's writing when it comes to powerscaling, especially when it's Toei doing the writing.
 
@Cyro.

My point in the MUI/UIS gap was kinda to bring out that their gap can't be from the dozens to hundreds (and hell no to anything more than that, imo).

As for the multiplier thing, is really crazy as you say but I trust statements more than numbers unless there's no more alternative to compare them, at one point I thought SSJ Broly was stronger than MUI via multipliers but I thought that was really crazy due to both being compared to GoDs.

And anyways MUI/UBW will still be over 20,000x than Blue via scaling to Broly which is also still very crazy. I mean prior to DBSB I had Jiren at his max 100x stronger than Blue Goku. Multiply that 100 by 2-3x for his UBW state.
 
Wait a sec, Goku said that Broly is possibly stronger than Beerus and this statement is brought up in the Light Novel, but Goku didn't know about Beerus's maximum capacity and he only said 'possibly'. So is Broly actually stronger than Beerus? Or there is another material regarding Broly's power compared to Beerus?
 
FP Jiren was stated to perhaps surpass GoD level, BUW Jiren surpassed that by an unknown margin. Broly was stated to might have surpassed GoD level but Gogeta is so strong to the point where Broly couldn't adapt. Broly could adapt to people 50x stronger than him at the very most so Gogeta is likely that far ahead.

This is redundant, it needs to be closed, and there should be a discussion rule about this.
 
Omegas03 said:
Wait a sec, Goku said that Broly is possibly stronger than Beerus and this statement is brought up in the Light Novel, but Goku didn't know about Beerus's maximum capacity and he only said 'possibly'. So is Broly actually stronger than Beerus? Or there is another material regarding Broly's power compared to Beerus?
Click to expand...
There are no other materials for it that I can recall but he is consistently called the strongest foe and stronger than the Gods of Destruction, similarly to Jiren.
 
Bump

@ZamasuChan

That's why I suggest an at Least Low 2-C rating without instantly getting to 2-C. MUI Goku and UBW Jiren would still be a lot stronger than GoDs (maybe not to the same degree as Gogeta, but there's a possibility).
 
@Cryo

If Broly were to put in here I think he'd be somewhere along the lines of being stronger than Base Jiren and UIO3 Goku but weaker than MUI and UBW. Broly was stated to be probably stronger than Beerus so that would put him near the Base Jiren tier but his ability to adapt and get stronger makes me believe that he has surpassed that level and was approaching UBW/MUI status. All of which is still not enough for SSJB Gogeta.

SSJB Gogeta > MUI Goku >= UBW Jiren > LSSJ Broly (DBS) > Base Jiren >= UIO3 Goku >= GoDs top tiers (Beerus, Belmod, Champa, Quitela) = Half 2-C or extremely high Low 2-C individually
 
The issue with that is:

UI Goku (Angry) > LB Jiren >/= UI Goku >>> Base Jiren >> UIS3 Goku

Goku couldn't escape out of Base Jiren's barrage without going full UI, meaning Base Jiren was actually far stronger than UIS Goku. UI Goku completely stomped around Base Jiren, yes he didn't one-shot Jiren but their fight and Jiren breaking his limits was all under a minute in-universe. Even then, we see LB Jiren consistently overpower UI Goku until Goku became enraged and smashed Jiren around, clashing evenly in raw power with Goku ultimately winning.

Overall, this chain actually has quite a few stomps. If Base Jiren is too powerful for a God of Destruction to defeat, then he would actually be far stronger than FPSS Broly than your scaling chain would suggest, in LB anyways.

It has to be noted, also, that UI Goku was literally moving instantly from Jiren's perspective, the stomp gap here is so monstrous that it isn't even funny.
 
LSSJ Broly has been stated to be possibly stronger than Beerus towards the end of the movie so he is probably Beerus tier after adapting (or just before he came back to Base) I don't believe he was quite Beerus level at the moment he transformed.

Towards the end of that fight UIO3 Goku was gaining the upper hand IIRC (at the moment you start to hear the Ultimate Battle theme).

My chain is: MUI Goku >>> Base Jiren (FP) >= UIO3 Goku (adapted) >> Base Jiren (close to FP) >>> Initial UIO3 Goku >>> 3 auras Jiren.

UIO3 Goku likely got a couple of power ups throught that fight (before MUI ofc).

The problem for me though is I still have yet to know which gap seems bigger. If MUI Goku-Base Jiren or SSB Gogeta-FPSSJ Broly.
 
Omegas03 wrote
Towards the end of that fight UIO3 Goku was gaining the upper hand IIRC (at the moment you start to hear the Ultimate Battle theme).

I recall Goku being unable to escape Jiren's barrage until he started to switch to the offensive, which triggered Ultra Instinct. It's less that UIS3 Goku was gaining the upper hand, and more of that Goku went Ultra Instinct to escape.
 
Pretty sure when Jiren powerd up to finish UIS Goku that was his max power at the time. We don't see him power up any further once Goku starts wipping the floor with him.
 
He only went full power to defeat UIS3 Goku, with Jiren and Belmod both clearly being confident that Jiren's full base power could defeat Goku. Goku then went UI and stomped Jiren.
 
i noticed that some people are saying that enraged MUI Goku > BUW Jiren AP wise. If he kept his AP but without the auto attack / defence part Goku gets beaten into a pulp broly style
 
When did Gogeta stomp Broly. The dude was tanking all of Gogeta's attack, even when he used a Full - Force Kamehameha, even when his ki was draining.
 
Mulgara said:
When did Gogeta stomp Broly.
The dude was tanking all of Gogeta's attack, even when he used a Full - Force Kamehameha, even when his ki was draining.
Click to expand...
Broly couldn't land a single hit on Gogeta when he went Blue. Gogeta casually mollywhopped Broly so bad that by the time Gogeta was charging the Kamehameha Broly was struggling to stand up straight and absolutely terrified. Broly is just kinda tanky, that's all.
 
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