Small Creation Trio Hax Additions

I'll make this quick. This is primarily about Giratina and Dialga, Arceus being an obvious technicality.

Now, as this scan shows, Dialga and Palkia's battle causes space and time to go out of whack. Near and far were coming together and the past, present and future were becoming one as well.

Shouldnt Dialga and Palkia be given Fate Manipulation from this? Or at least Dialga? After all, if the future is becoming one with the present, they are making future possibilities become one with the present as well, shaping the future. And since Dialga IS time, this is more reasonable for him to do this than Palkia if nothing else since Dialga would have access to all future possibilities for being those future possibilities.


Now as for Giratina, im proposing he gets either Power Nullification or Casuality Manipulation via the distortion world. This is because of the role it plays in the multiverse . Whenever an imbalance happens in the Pokemon World, the distortion world corrects those imbalances so that the balance between Time and Space is maintained. In response to this, black toxic clouds are created as bi-products of repairing space-time. Dialga and Palkia fighting in Alamos Town is an example of this since every attack they were unleashing was requiring the distortion world to keep time and space balanced, causing it to be over-polluted with toxic clouds.

So a tl;dr: Dialga if no one else should get Fate Manipulation via being able to merge the future, present and past together, Giratina should get Power Nullification or Casuality Manipulation via correcting imbalances in the multiverse to keep time and space balanced, and Arceus should get all of this for obvious reasons.

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I agree

He only mentions the past tho, not the future.

Making the past and present come together would still count as making the future become the present. Because to the past, present time is future time.

I'm like, 90% sure that aint how it works because it's taking things that already happened fused with the now.

He's making the present's past fuse with it, not the past's future fuse with the present. And that's the thing, he wasnt fusing the past's future with it, it's kinda weird how it happens but it's a one way kind of thing.

That aint fate manip though, that's something else entirely, that's like some dark souls shit.

(Also I forgot Cyrus started crying blood and had some angel symbolism, that was weird).

These passive effects are pretty good.

Should Palkia And Dialga get type 1 acausality? They are quite immune to those effects, like the fusion of past, present and future.

Chariot190 said:

That aint fate manip though, that's something else entirely, that's like some dark souls shit.

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No, we have statements from both Cyrus and Rowan clarifying that they were fusing the past, present and future together thanks to Neo's scans.

Fusing the future with the past or present would fall under my suggestion for fate manipulation.

NeoZex6399 said:

These passive effects are pretty good. snip

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I saw, like, a good few abilities this gives. Casuality Manipulation probably being one of them

Not what either statement says actually, your scan states that the past and present fuse, which already explained above why the ain't fate manip. And Rowan claims that the future becomes the past which is another can of worms entirely. Neither are examples of fate manipulation, he's not actually controlling or manipulating fate, he ain't even making it so actions are guranteed to happen. We actually see how the effects play out a bit, nothing to do with manipulating fate or making events transpire or guranteed to happen.

Even if they're fusing in the way you think they are, that doesn't actually warrant fate manip given the effects from the fusing.

Now if you can find an actual example of Diagla doing some fate manip I'm fine with it (he may have something in pmd, i forget), it'd fit him but that example ain't really fate manip.

>And Rowan claims that the future becomes the past which is another can of worms entirely. Neither are examples of fate manipulation, he's not actually controlling or manipulating fate, he ain't even making it so actions are guaranteed to happen.

Except, that's the point here. Making the future become one with an earlier point in time is what should count as Fate Manipulation as you are making a future outcome become one with the present, shaping the present path to said future. And the argument of him not making it so "actions are guranteed to happen" falls flat when Dialga wasn't actively doing this to stop the protags and gym leaders from interfering. It was a casual side effect of him battling Palkia.

If he can do this when just fighting Palkia, then he should be given actual fate hax. Especially since Dialga, in this case, would literally BE the future and would see the outcome he wants to shape.

>Except, that's the point here. Making the future become one with an earlier point in time is what should count as Fate Manipulation as you are making a future outcome become one with the present, shaping the present path to said future.

That aint what's happening though, atleast not in the way you want it to merge, the most of what we see it do is trivial things like characters repeat themselves because the event happened twice due to the merging. It ain't controlling or manipulating fate, the effects shown by it aren't anything close to fate manipulation, it's just wonky ass time manip, and even then.

>And the argument of him not making it so "actions are guranteed to happen" falls flat when Dialga wasn't actively doing this to stop the protags and gym leaders from interfering. It was a casual side effect of him battling Palkia.

So? If he wasn't trying to do so then there's nothing to assume he can when he ants to without a direct statement or feat. It doesn't fall flat because Dialga didnt do something he never showed he was capable of, your argument falls flat though for assuming Dialga can do something that was never shown. Not how it works, we need a stament or a feat of fate manip, saying he wasn;t trying so he could if he did try ain't how this works unless there's statements that give substantial evidence that is the case but he only evidence you have is statements that don't even confirm that.

>If he can do this when just fighting Palkia, then he should be given actual fate hax. Especially since Dialga, in this case, would literally BE the future and would see the outcome he wants to shape.

No? He should be given fate hax if he's actually shown screwing with fate itself somehow, Dialga being the future doesn't mean he can manipulate fate or even manipulate the future itself. That's something that has to be shown dude, and from what I can see that hasn't been shown. Hell we don't even know if Dialga can freely control these effects, even if they're side effects that doesn't gurantee absolute free reign of the effects, that's something that many tend to forget.

Basically find an actual feat of him manipulating future actions or events or manipulating fate, Pokemon Special despite merging doesn't actually show any of the above. dialga not being serious doesn't count if he never shown the ability when he was serious. Or given a statement saying that he can do so.

I think this proposal seems legit, but like with any other thread, I'll wait for more input.

>That aint what's happening though, atleast not in the way you want it to merge, the most of what we see it do is trivial things like characters repeat themselves because the event happened twice due to the merging. It ain't controlling or manipulating fate, the effects shown by it aren't anything close to fate manipulation, it's just wonky ass time manip, and even then.

Or this is an entirely different feat and has nothing to do with what Cyrus and Rowan were talking about.

>So? If he wasn't trying to do so then there's nothing to assume he can when he ants to without a direct statement or feat.

We do have direct statements. From both Cyrus and Rowan.

>It doesn't fall flat because Dialga didnt do something he never showed he was capable of, your argument falls flat though for assuming Dialga can do something that was never shown. Not how it works, we need a stament or a feat of fate manip, saying he wasn;t trying so he could if he did try ain't how this works unless there's statements that give substantial evidence that is the case but he only evidence you have is statements that don't even confirm that.

Not being shown on panel =/= not being a feat. We give characters hax abilities from sheer statements all the time, whether they are outright shown or not, and this is no exception either.

And what your point here is wasn't what I was saying. What I did say was that Dialga didn't make gurantees happen in his favor because he was not actively attempting to stop the protagonists from interfering with his fight with Palkia. Him merging the future with the past and present is something that was a casual side effect of him battling Palkia. So whatever the Protags experienced in those time-space distortions has nothing to do with what im arguing here. It's a false comparison.

>No? He should be given fate hax if he's actually shown screwing with fate itself somehow, Dialga being the future doesn't mean he can manipulate fate or even manipulate the future itself.

Which he can as Rowan and Cyrus directly state that was what he was doing when battling Palkia. And even then, we don't need to see it. A statement is more than enough, unless you want to try downgrading half the wikia who have hax abilities from pure statements.

>That's something that has to be shown dude, and from what I can see that hasn't been shown. Hell we don't even know if Dialga can freely control these effects, even if they're side effects that doesn't gurantee absolute free reign of the effects, that's something that many tend to forget.

Dialga is the concept of time, literally makes up what time is the Pokemon Multiverse and has better control over it than anyone besides Arceus. Him being able to freely control these effects is very reasonable, especially since they were extremely casual. This is like saying neither he or Palkia can warp time and space freely because they were only shown to do it when fighting each other.

>Basically find an actual feat of him manipulating future actions or events or manipulating fate

We have 2 statements of him doing/being able to do such. That is enough. And manipulating the future = manipulating fate.

>Pokemon Special despite merging doesn't actually show any of the above. dialga not being serious doesn't count if he never shown the ability when he was serious. Or given a statement saying that he can do so.

This isn't how this works here. If the hax is used casually, then it means just that. It was used casually. A character doesn't need to be shown to be serious with a hax ability in order to actually have it.

>Or this is an entirely different feat and has nothing to do with what Cyrus and Rowan were talking about.

It aint, things like that are of direct consequence due to the merging, that did what the merging did. It is quite litterally what they were talking about.

>We do have direct statements. From both Cyrus and Rowan.

That's not even what I meant, what I meant was what you think constitutes as the time merging aint doing what you think it's doing.

>Not being shown on panel =/= not being a feat. We give characters hax abilities from sheer statements all the time, whether they are outright shown or not, and this is no exception either.

It's a huge excepion because 1. It isn't shown. 2. The statements in question and the merging itself don't confirm what you're trying to say, the fact that we seeb what the merging does and has nothing to do with the manipulation of fate or making events guranteed to happen, shit like that means that no, the merging didn't involve fate manip.

>And what your point here is wasn't what I was saying. What I did say was that Dialga didn't make gurantees happen in his favor because he was not actively attempting to stop the protagonists from interfering with his fight with Palkia. Him merging the future with the past and present is something that was a casual side effect of him battling Palkia. So whatever the Protags experienced in those time-space distortions has nothing to do with what im arguing here. It's a false comparison.

Ignorong the fact that's literallyn what you said, it doesn't matter if Dialga wasn't trying to stop them or if everything was a side effect, why? Because not once in that entire arc was what you're trying to give him actually shown, notas a side effect, not on purpose, it simply wasm't shown and the side effects that the protags were experiencing? Are actually the side effects of the merged time in question. It isn't a false comparison because I'm not comparing anything, it's one in the same.

>Which he can as Rowan and Cyrus directly state that was what he was doing when battling Palkia. And even then, we don't need to see it. A statement is more than enough, unless you want to try downgrading half the wikia who have hax abilities from pure statements.

Except we know what the merging of the times actually constitued. It aint a matter of we have a statement so its fine, it's the fact we have a statement and we see what the statement actually entails, it's not like this was off panel. We outright see what the merging did, how it effects the timeline and how it effects actions and events. It aint a matter of we dont need to see it, the issue is that we did see it, and it aint what you want it to be. If those profiles have abilities that are given feats, statements and aren't overly contradicted that's fine by me.

>Dialga is the concept of time, literally makes up what time is the Pokemon Multiverse and has better control over it than anyone besides Arceus.

I'm aware? Don't repeat things that everyone that is even debating this should be aware of coming into it.

>Him being able to freely control these effects is very reasonable, especially since they were extremely casual. This is like saying neither he or Palkia can warp time and space freely because they were only shown to do it when fighting each other.

Not how that works, we need to see him actually be able to freely maniplate the powers in question, if he can freely manipulate time loops? Ok. If he can stop time or rewind time? Ok. But he has to be shown capable of actually doing so. You can't just assume that because he conrls time he automatically gets every time based ability ever, needs statements or feats, and no this example doesn't cut it because we actually see what happens and it aint what you think it is. They can warp time and space freely, it's just how can they manipulate it freely is what I'm questioning, feats or statements take precedeence over assumptions.

>We have 2 statements of him doing/being able to do such. That is enough. And manipulating the future = manipulating fate.

It isnt enough because it literally aint doing what you're saying it's doing, that's the key difference between a statement and a statement that is shown to mean something that contradicts your claim. And other then that, we have never actualy seen Dialga manipulate the future in a way that would manipulate events or fate, and as this example is extremely suspect due to the effects of the time merge actually being shown and not being what you're describing, it's invalidated.

>This isn't how this works here. If the hax is used casually, then it means just that. It was used casually. A character doesn't need to be shown to be serious with a hax ability in order to actually have it.

No he needs to actually show to have it first instead of being asumed capable of being able to do something via a casual yet different ability.

I'm not repeating mysef for a third time, the effect of the merging you are describing isn't actually something that happens, we see what happens and fate or manipulation over the future or events and actions aint on of em or even making things guranteed to happen, find a different example or feat and statement where what you want is actually shown or not contradicted.

>It aint, things like that are of direct consequence due to the merging, that did what the merging did. It is quite litterally what they were talking about.

Time and space were being warped, which is common everyday nonsense for Dialga and Palkia. The merging doing this doesn't mean the merge isn't something more. So no, it very much so wasn't what they were talking about.

>That's not even what I meant, what I meant was what you think constitutes as the time merging aint doing what you think it's doing.

See above. Time and space being warped doesnt mean the future wasn't being merged with the present.

>It's a huge excepion because 1. It isn't shown.

"Whether they are outright shown or not". Nice job ignoring this very thing I said before.

>The statements in question and the merging itself don't confirm what you're trying to say, the fact that we seeb what the merging does and has nothing to do with the manipulation of fate or making events guranteed to happen, shit like that means that no, the merging didn't involve fate manip.

We don't see events being guaranteed to happen because Dialga was not actively trying to make them happen. To manipulate fate, you need to actively choose an outcome in the future you want to happen and shape it. Dialga wasn't choosing outcomes because he didnt need to. He had no care for anything but fighting Palkia. So what event would be shaped if the user doesn't intend to select an event to shape in the first place?

This is the problem with your argument. You keep using the "guaranteed events didnt happen so its not fate hax" point when Dialga wasn't actively selecting an event in the future to happen. He was casually making the future merge with present time, but without him choosing a fate in the future to shape, nothing would be changed. Dialga wasn't actively intending to change fate when merging the future with the present here.

My point here is that if Dialga actually intends to make a future event he wants real by merging the future with the present, THAT should be Fate Manipulation because Dialga at that point would be actually intending to change fate, which is within his capabilities since he can merge the future and literally IS the future. He can shape the future, all he needs is an event he wants from said future to happen to actually change fate.

>and the side effects that the protags were experiencing? Are actually the side effects of the merged time in question. It isn't a false comparison because I'm not comparing anything, it's one in the same.

Time being distorted being a side effect doesn't mean its the only thing that was happening, again. If anything, that is only just an additional add on to merging the future with earlier points in time. And since Dialga wasn't actively intending to change fate by merging the future with the present, fate wouldn't have been changed here anyway. So time distortions being the only thing shown would make sense.

>Except we know what the merging of the times actually constitued. It aint a matter of we have a statement so its fine, it's the fact we have a statement and we see what the statement actually entails, it's not like this was off panel.

Except, this is going under the assumption that what was shown on panel was the only thing that was happening at all and nothing else can come from it. Something you have no evidence for.

Merging future time with present time can still very much so count as Fate Manipulation, provided you are actively trying to actually change fate. Dialga wasn't trying to change fate by merging the times, so fate wouldnt have been effected. But when he actually does intend to do that? It would become Fate Manipulation and you can't use instances of him not trying to do so as counter-arguments against it.

>You can't just assume that because he conrls time he automatically gets every time based ability ever

This wasn't what I was stating or even implying at all. Dialga doesn't get any time-based power ever for being the concept of time. What I was saying is that any time-based power Dialga actually shows, or is implied to have or do via statements, he should have free control over automatically for being the concept of time.

>and no this example doesn't cut it because we actually see what happens and it aint what you think it is.

And what we see happens doesn't mean its the only thing that can come out of the ability.

>It isnt enough because it literally aint doing what you're saying it's doing, that's the key difference between a statement and a statement that is shown to mean something that contradicts your claim. And other then that, we have never actualy seen Dialga manipulate the future in a way that would manipulate events or fate, and as this example is extremely suspect due to the effects of the time merge actually being shown and not being what you're describing, it's invalidated.

And as I said above, Dialga wasn't actively trying to manipulate fate as he only cared about fighting Palkia. He merged the times without selectively choosing an event he wants in the future to happen in the present. You can't manipulate fate without selectively choosing a possibility to happen, now can you?

My proposal is that Dialga should be able to actively choose any possibility he wants in the future to happen for literally BEING those possibilities and being able to merge the future with the present. Combine the both of those, and that equals Fate Manipulation.

>I'm not repeating mysef for a third time, the effect of the merging you are describing isn't actually something that happens, we see what happens and fate or manipulation over the future or events and actions aint on of em

And I wont repeat myself either. So, see above.

NeoZex6399 said:

Should Palkia And Dialga get type 1 acausality? They are quite immune to those effects, like the fusion of past, present and future.

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Don't they already have that?

Disagree with giving fate manip when the actual concept was never brought up

I agree with Wokistan. Nothing about this looks like fate manip to me.

Same

Wokistan said:

Disagree with giving fate manip when the actual concept was never brought up

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That doesn't mean it can't be fate hax though. Why does the concept need to be brought up?

Dialga merges the future with present time. Therefore, he can merge future possibilities with present time, which should count as Fate Manipulation.

How do we know fate is even a thing to begin with though? Not every holding asserts the existence of some sort of fate, nor would everything consider a merging of present with future to be analogous to it. I'd want powers to actually be apparent to add them rather than an extrapolation.

Because fate and the future are literally the same thing?

No, fate implies a predestination sort of thing, something that one can't really change at least in a classical sense. Future's just stuff that hasn't happened and is far less set in stone.

We have characters here who fate hax by manipulating or altering the future as that is what its generally treated as here.

Manipulating the future = manipulating fate.

...why is this in Q&A? Shouldn't it be in Content Revision?

Shouldn't we first add all the moves that the Creation Trio learns by level?

There should really be a discussion thread to clarify on the bare concept of Fate Manipulation itself.

Should Giratina get passive Spatial Manipulation?

Dont know if that's spatial manip, but it is something.

Actually why is that shadow form listed as illusion creation? Doesnt seem like an illusion to me, especially in origins, he appears to be made of shadow, that seems to be elemental intangibility and shadow manip.

Should the Lake Trio have some kind of reality manipulation?

"Known as "The Being of Willpower." It sleeps at the bottom of a lake to keep the world in balance."

~Azelf; Pokémon Diamond

"Three beings were born to bind time and space."
"Two make matter, and three make spirit, shaping the world."
"Those three beings I read to mean the three Pokémon of the lakes. It's about Uxie, Mesprit, and Azelf."
"The myth describes how they gave spirit to the world, shaping it."

Probably, you could make an argument for Azelf sleeping to keep the world in balance and the region to mean something. Plus the fact they can bind Dialga and Palkia in there abstract looking state.

Although the last bolded line I'm pretty sure is talking about shaping the world as in civilazation and humanity and the like, creating the foundation for the world as in, well, sentience.

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