Let's Talk About Speed Equalized Again

Sir_Ovens · Jul 19, 2019

Ok, so there has been a rule for some time now that says speed amping for a character in a speed equalized match is not allowed if they are the normally slower character and they speed blitz via the speed amp.

I find that there is a fault in this logic, as speed equalizing a match in the first place, is supposed to make a match a test of skill, and ability. If one of those abilities is to amp speed, then you're essentially restricting an ability, which isn't allowed.

Another problem stems from the fact that the normally faster character is somehow exempt from this rule and can blitz however they like with speed amps. That's like, what? A bad joke? The normally faster character wins in a speed equalized match because he's normally faster. Then what's the point of equalizing speed in the first place?

As you can see, this is causing unnecessary mental gymnastics and needs to be resolved.

Starter_Pack · Jul 19, 2019

The points listed here seems fine with me.

Hl3_or_bust · Jul 19, 2019

Agreed

Wokistan · Jul 19, 2019

Why should a slower character be an to win via being faster? Restricting the ability here is allowed because it was specifically determined to be. This also leads to people hiding speed feats as amps to undermine speed equalization, and can also lead to biased matches where you put some dude with like 1 blitzworthy speed amp against like the flash or something and cripple the latter wirh speed wqual.

First_Witch · Jul 19, 2019

Disagreed for the same reason given in the old thread.

Starter_Pack · Jul 19, 2019

Wokistan said:
snip

Oh, wait. That's a good point. I take it back.

Sir_Ovens · Jul 19, 2019

But you see that that causes a problem of redundancy right? If the faster character already blitz stomps, the rules say nothing about not letting them do that in a speed equalized setting.

Ogbunabali · Jul 19, 2019

I don't really see the point in this thread. Speed blitzes aren't added in both equalized and non equalized matches, it's the speed equivalent to an AP stomp, or a haxstomp. What's the problem with that?

Andytrenom · Jul 19, 2019

So I've been hearing that even being allowed to gain a speed advantage against a faster character in a speed equal match is forbidden, I'll just give my thoughts

The main reason behind this rule is that we don't want biased matches and favoritism to be a thing, where you can have someone who can't win against a character through speed win against that character through speed and those are the kind of situations we should be weary of

Of course, if a speed equal match is just an excuse to give an unwarrented win to characters is something that's impossible to determine with 100% objectivity so it has to be a case by a case deal. But how we evaluate individual cases should be in accordance with the primary reason for the rule existing, and the best way to go about it I think is judge if the speed equal match doesn't solely consist of speed amps giving a win to a slower character and if there are other important factors in play which can tilt the balance to either side

Firephoenixearl · Jul 19, 2019

It's just no. If one of those abilities is speed amp, then it just doesn't work. We cannot say Sol character amps twice and therefore wins a match against MFTL+ characters. However we can say that MFTL+ characters can stat amp and increase their speed further to blitz. Why this works is because.

The SoL character can never blitz the MFTL+ character even if he speed amps. So it would be a faulty logic that because of a rule which is supposed to make matchups more fun we make HUGE logic gaps like a slower character blitzing a faster one. The speed equal fights are supposed to put the battle on equal grounds, not straight up nerf one party while boosting the other. If no speed amps are present then it's a match on equal grounds of speed, however if they are then it's not, were purpously making one character slower so that the other can blitz which makes the match heavily biased possibly even spite.

The normally faster character is an exempt from this rule because, if he speed amps, he would still blitz. He already had a heavy "nerf" to his speed, nerfing his abilities too is just plain hate. If the 2 characters were to fight. Moreover:

The faster blitzing the slower would be a logical outcome, the slower blitzing the faster wouldn't.

That is why the faster character is allowed to win via speed amp, while the slower isn't. It would just create illogical, impossible and unacceptable outcomes. There is also no real gymnastics to understand. What people need to understand is that it's not the base speed that matters, it's the amped speed. So:

'Human with SoL speed amp can blitz in speed equal vs a Hypersonic dude'.

Human with SoL speed amp cannot blitz in speed equal vs an FTL dude.

Just compare the amped speeds if the amped speed is greater than the opponent's original speed (im assuming the opponent has no speed amps), then it's fine. If the amped speed is slower than the opponent's original speed then it's not fine.

And to top it off. If character X who can stat amp (but his stat amp is slower than character Y) will make a rather decisive win vs character Y due to the speed advantage he would gain there are 2 options:

1. Deem the fight a missmatch and have it not be added.

2. Assume that even after the amp the speed is still equalized.

Sir_Ovens · Jul 19, 2019

From the rules:

During a match where speed is equalized, speed amplification techniques are allowed, unless they lead to a victory via Speed Blitz in favor of the slower character.

No where do I see that speed blitzes don't favour the previously faster character.

Sir_Ovens · Jul 19, 2019

Again, mental gymnastics. In the case of hiding speed feats as amps, CRTs exist so that people can evaluate what's going on within a certain set of feats. And blitzing shouldn't be a thing, period. Regardless of whether or not the character was faster before speed equalized. It shouldn't favour any one character.

We either make speed amp blitzing not a thing in speed equalized matches, or everyone is allowed to speed amp blitz.

Firephoenixearl · Jul 19, 2019

Sir Ovens said:
We either make speed amp blitzing not a thing in speed equalized matches, or everyone is allowed to speed amp blitz.

Ovens, you gotta listen to yourself from a logical perspective.

The faster character cannot be faster than the slower, unless the slower is allowed to be faster than the faster.

That is not a logical outcome of a fight ovens, drop it. When we make fights we try to find the closest to truth outcome possible. And outright stupid stuff like "slower character wins because he's faster" is not a close to truth outcome.

Hl3_or_bust · Jul 19, 2019

You do realize that speed equalization exists to remove base speed as a factor right?

Sir_Ovens · Jul 19, 2019

We equalize speed specifically to make it a test of skill and ability. If we make such a one sided rule ok, we're essentially allowing speed blitzes within a different context. That breaks the purpose of speed equalization my dude.

Yes, if the normally slower character wins via speed amp blitzing in a speed equalized match, it is a stomp. So why isn't it a stomp when the normally faster character does it? We don't allow speed blitzes in speed unequalized, why do we allow it in speed equal? This is an obvious double standard.

Ogbunabali · Jul 19, 2019

Sir Ovens said:
Yes, if the normally slower character wins via speed amp blitzing in a speed equalized match, it is a stomp. So why isn't it a stomp when the normally faster character does it? We don't allow speed blitzes in speed unequalized, why do we allow it in speed equal? This is an obvious double standard.

You do realize that this doesn't get added either right?

A speed blitz in either scenario doesn't get added.

Firephoenixearl · Jul 19, 2019

You missed the point. It's not necessarily if it's a blitz. If a slower character wins because of an argument of "being faster"...it's not allowed. Even if the match would still be fair, it cannot be accepted.

We do not say "in speed equal, if the faster character stomps via speed it's ok", we say "if the faster character wins (as in fair win, with a minor advantage in speed) via speed amp, it's ok".

Sir_Ovens · Jul 19, 2019

That's not a rule, and it is actively advocated for. Case in point, the recent 8-B brackets and the infamous Ouma vs Hunter. No one stepped up to say that Ouma couldn't just speed blitz Hunter. In fact, the argument was more about how Hunter could take him down before the speed blitz.

That's what vs threads should be about, debating the possible ways a character beats another character. If a character doesn't inherently start of with a game ending speed blitz, why should the thread not be allowed?

Ogbunabali · Jul 19, 2019

A character not using his win condition from the start doesn't make it a stomp for the character that does.

Sir_Ovens · Jul 19, 2019

So what you're essentially saying is that, if my win con in a speed equalized match is a speed blitz, and I do it at the start, it's completely fair?

Ogbunabali · Jul 19, 2019

If the opponent has a win condition, yeah it would be.

Firephoenixearl · Jul 19, 2019

Sir Ovens said:
So what you're essentially saying is that, if my win con in a speed equalized match is a speed blitz, and I do it at the start, it's completely fair?

Only of your speed blitz is as i said faster than the character normally. If not, then no it's not a win at all. Cus a slower character doesn't blitz faster ones.

Paul_Frank · Jul 19, 2019

I agree with Wokistan here

The reason for this rule is basically that speed equalization is made to give the slower character a fighting chance so they aren't blitzed.

If the slower character takes this opportunity to amp to blitz worthy speed and immediately blitz the opponent there was no point in equalizing speed and the match is a mismatch since if speed is unequal the slower character gets blitzed and in speed equal the faster character gets blitzed meaning the match cant be made fair

If a character wins via speed blitz in speed equal or speed unequal its not added in either case

Sir_Ovens · Jul 19, 2019

So you agree then, that the faster character should not be allowed to blitz in speed equalized? Because that's where my issue stems from. The fact that we don't have a rule for this, nor do we enforce it.

DontTalkDT · Jul 19, 2019

Sir Ovens said:
From the rules:

During a match where speed is equalized, speed amplification techniques are allowed, unless they lead to a victory via Speed Blitz in favor of the slower character.

No where do I see that speed blitzes don't favour the previously faster character.

That should probably be reworded to "victory via speed advantage in favor of the slower character", as I don't think its just about speed blitz and we do not usually allow speedblitz to be added in general (except the rare cases where they aren't stomps).

Paul_Frank · Jul 19, 2019

Sir Ovens said:
So you agree then, that the faster character should not be allowed to blitz in speed equalized? Because that's where my issue stems from. The fact that we don't have a rule for this, nor do we enforce it.

Correct neither character should be able to win via blitz in speed equal because that defeats the entire purpose of speed equal

But the faster character isn't exempt from this rule and I'm not sure why you think they are

The_Divine_Phoenix · Jul 19, 2019

Hold on. Blitzes arent allowed, period, no matter who does them. What exactly is the issue here?

Either character can still boost speed in speed equalized as long as it doesn't lead to a blitz, there are no rules saying they can't.

Sir_Ovens · Jul 19, 2019

Because I honestly have not seen this rule being enforced until recently, and I found it silly that a naturally faster character can get away with a speed blitz in a speed equalized setting as long as they had speed amp. Problem mostly stems from the rules being kinda one sided towards the naturally faster character due to the phrasing.

Paul_Frank · Jul 19, 2019

I've never seen the faster character be allowed to amp to a blitz either and have the match added though

The_Divine_Phoenix · Jul 19, 2019

Neither character can get away with blitzing, those matches don't get added, they are stomps.

Firephoenixearl · Jul 19, 2019

DontTalkDT said:
That should probably be reworded to "victory via speed advantage in favor of the slower character", as I don't think its just about speed blitz and we do not usually allow speedblitz to be added in general (except the rare cases where they aren't stomps).

^^

Blitz is a heavy word. As i said, the match needs to be fair to be added. The point is faster characters can win via speed amp advantage, slower characters cant't.

So @Ovens about your case with Ouma vs Hunter. Ouma can blitz because he's faster than the hunter, about the blitz that was another issue, it was never a case of "is the match fair" we were just trying to find a winner.

JohnCenaNation · Aug 6, 2019

I'm with Sir Ovens over here.

Let's Talk About Speed Equalized Again

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