• This forum is strictly intended to be used by members of the VS Battles wiki. Please only register if you have an autoconfirmed account there, as otherwise your registration will be rejected. If you have already registered once, do not do so again, and contact Antvasima if you encounter any problems.

    For instructions regarding the exact procedure to sign up to this forum, please click here.
  • We need Patreon donations for this forum to have all of its running costs financially secured.

    Community members who help us out will receive badges that give them several different benefits, including the removal of all advertisements in this forum, but donations from non-members are also extremely appreciated.

    Please click here for further information, or here to directly visit our Patreon donations page.
  • Please click here for information about a large petition to help children in need.

Could we reconsider the WB 1.19 Petaton calc?

Status
Not open for further replies.
Here is the calc for those that are wondering

This exact calculation was accepted here before at 1.2 Teratons, then it was shown that he used the wrong height on the graph and it was increased to around 1.2 Petatons. It was accepted on the OBD, but wasn't accepted here. The main argument If I remeber correctly was that it was an outlier. I am trying to show why it wasn't an outlier.

My first point: Sengoku's statement

-Sengoku is an extremely intelligent man and was alive when Whitebeard was fighting in his Prime. Why would he give an account to Whitebeard's power if it were untrue? Sengoku clearly states that WB has the power to destroy the world. Now, I'm not suggesting that Prime WB should be upgraded to Planet Level, but this should be a solid testament to the actual energy yields that WB's attacks carry.


My Second Point: Why the Damage didn't reflect the Energy

-Real Earthquakes obviously don't do as much damage as the energy they produce. Stronger Earthquakes can barely topple buildings, yet there energy yields are much higher than buidling level. The Gura Gura No Mi literally concentrates the power of an earthquake into WB's attacks. WB must concentrate the power of his tremors, otherwise Marineford would've been obliterated. WB has had the fruit for likely 20+ years, and it would be ludicrous to assume he can't control his quakes. The point is the Hypocenter of a real quake experiences a vastly greater amount of energy transfer than is what is what actually experienced here on earth. Just like the actual energy in WB's quakes is much greater than the Environmental damage they produce. The point is, the initial energies of WB attacks where potent enough to cause level 4.5 damage tremors thousands of kMs away. The formula he uses takes this into account as this means the energy of the mechanical tremor waves is quite high. For Waves to have enough energy to be able to cause level 4.5 damage earthquakes on the richter scale, the initial surge of energy had to be massive. It was just heavily concentrated. Also, why wouldn't WB concentrate his attacks? it is alot more efficient, especially when all of your allies on the same island you're on.


My Third Point: Why it isnt an Outlier

-Every feat thus far in the series performed by a Top Tier has been relatively cdasual. Every feat by a Top Tier besides this one has been Island Level, yes, I grant you this. But I'd be remiss to not mention that all of those feats were father casual. Also, WB is the strongest attacks in the series, and he stated to have the power to destroy the world, so I don't see why it is an outlier. Also Small Country (what WB was listed at before) to Country+ isn't that crazy of a jump, especially for the strongest characters in the series. Characters in Naruto jumped from like Island level to Multi Continent level in like 1 or 2 arcs.


Tell me what you guys think.
 
None of this is a response to why we don't use the calc from NF. The real reason is because it assumes there is a significant tectonic change in the structure of the OP world's plates, rather than just a tremor or shockwave being propagated. The value we have up is the calculation for just the tremor or shockwave by itself.
 
Post me to the calc please? Also, Wb can clearly control Tectonic plates, he has a feat of him doing it, so I don;t understand why that would be a problem.
 
ChemicalQs said:
Post me to the calc please? Also, Wb can clearly control Tectonic plates, he has a feat of him doing it, so I don;t understand why that would be a problem.
Give me a panel showing that
 
In addition, the shockwave calculation is far more in line with other One Piece feats.
 
"Whitebeard's earthquakes aren't like real earthquakes. So I'm going to use an impact calculator instead."

Yes, because Whitebeard's earthquakes are just like meteors.

"the real reason is because it assumes there is a significant tectonic change in the structure of the OP world's plates, rather than just a tremor or shockwave being propagated."

No it doesn't. Meassuring the tectonic change would have been seismic moment, but the calc found radiated energy. Radiated energy is "a measure of the radiated energy in the form of seismic waves and thus of the seismic potential for damage " accoring to this study. Seismic moment would habe been an overall change in the tectonic plates. You can find the forumla for finding radiated energy on this page and this calculator will do it for you.

The real reason you reject it is based off of a misunderstanding.
 
The assumption that we reject is that there was any shifting of the plates hence seismic moment is unusable. We take radiated energy precisely because it is the energy of the waves, not the shifts in plates.
 
Alakabamm said:
The assumption that we reject is that there was any shifting of the plates hence seismic moment is unusable. We take radiated energy precisely because it is the energy of the waves, not the shifts in plates.
The radiated energy is what GM calced... I don't get what you mean.
 
I don't think so? Our calculation for radiated energy - using the same calculator you provided in your comment right there and a 10.9 Richter magnitude (taken from Impact Effects) - gives us a value of 1.41 x 10^21 Joules - Large Island level
 
Are you saying we need to use the Richter that GM had?

His calcs involves a lot more guesswork than an impact generator created by distinguished physicists contains. Specifically, amplitude determination
 
Yes, you do need to use his. I JUST explained that GM found radiated energy. Also, his Richter value has NOTHING to do with what energy he found after getting it.

A lot more guesswork? But saying WB's fist is just like a 50 km meteor ISN'T guessowrk?! Seriously?!

Also, "created by distinguished physicists" is an argument from authority. AND, It was made by experts =/= We used it right.
 
His Richter value IS his energy found.

And his amplitude assumptions are, in fact, guesswork. There is no real way of determining the amplitude of an earthquake like that, especially since the thing generating them is not just a bunch of shifting plates.

You can read the associated paper with the impact calculator if you like, but all it says is "the energy conveyed to the ground by the object can be estimated by the seismic activity from x distance away." That is the exact purpose we used it for here.
 
I agree with Alakabamm. Also, even if you managed to get this change through, it would simply be considered an outlier, and discarded, due to contradicting the scale of everything else in the series that has been seen so far.
 
Wait, can anyone show me the pages where Whitebeard actually creates the earthquake? I would like to take a closer look at it again to see what is actually going on.

Then again, if this calc was an assumption (instead of being directly shown), chances are this entire feat itself seems flimsy at best.

Btw plugging Kkapoios' value into the seismic moment calculator (magnitude 10.9), and we get an approximate value of about 6.6 petatons of TNT.
 
Grimm Dragon is not accepted here. I believe I said this before.

I don't even think NF accepts it.
 
Wade just because you don't understand something it doesn't make it wrong.

The only thing that i took into considaration from the meteor calculator is the seismic energy ,i just found a meteor that would create the wanted results and only kept the seismic energy which was given by the calculator itself.

Whitebeard's earthquakes are shockwaves traveling through the ground and are caused by his punches while REAL life naturally occuring earthquakes are caused by enormous tectonic plates coliding with each other producing a seismic wave but also massive amounts of thermal energy etc.

GM calcs what would be a real life naturally occuring earthquake which includes all the nice things we've talked about boosting the final result to the petatons range.
 
I agree with the rest here.

For real earthquakes (aka moving continental plates) total seismic moment energy can be used.

For meteors and meteor like things one can further use the formula from the earth impact calculator to figure out the energy.

For everything else (at least after current standing on formulas I know) only the energy of the seismic waves themself should be used.
 
@Ala

You still haven't proven why his Richter is wrong.

You still haven't proven that WB's earthquakes are more like meteors than earthquakes, which you MUST prove in order for the calc accepted on this site to be taken serious on any level.

That has nothing to do with what I said.

Prove the things I wrote above, or you have lost any semblance of a point.
 
@Kkap, just because you condescend, that doesn't mean you are right.

What would possibly be the justification for the values you entered into the calculator? Oh wait, you just "found a meteor that would create the wanted results". What? Since when are calcs done by what "looks good" or gives desired results? Seriously? You literally just admitted that you rigged your own calc. How is this not a problem with the Admins and the people in the calc group?! The formula that GM used does not factor in thermal energy, therefore your point is lost. As I gave above, it just finds the energy that has been radiated out from the epicenter through the ground. Origin might be a problem, EXCEPT the fact that the radiated energy doesn't depend on the origin of the earthquake.

No. Seismic moment would be the thing factoring in all that extra energy. That would get WB at near Moon Level. Radiated energy is what we use, and that's what GM used.
 
Except that I did exactly that? Several times?

He uses some graphs and drawn lines to justify an amplitude and a loose "it is logarithmic" assumption to attempt to boost it even more. My own source - which I have even said multiple times by this point - is the paper which was used to make the impact calculator itself, produced by disnguished physicists in the field.

As I have said in response to you, this is justified because what they are modeling in the paper itself is not a METEOR it is merely an energetic, above-ground reaction that creates seismic effects as a result (as a largely energetic event can be expected to do).

This is, fundamentally, a much more fit modeling system for this feat than a series of assumptions by someone who doesn't work in the field proper (the people who produced the paper being experts).


You accuse me of not proving MY point but the fact is that I responded to you on several levels and you dropped them. Unless you respond to what I have said, you don't have a base to stand on.
 
And honestly? The calc was done by Kkapoios, a respected calc member on this site. I really don't need to justify it to you right now. You can look into the methods yourself.
 
You'll be laughing yourself off with a five day ban if you say something condescending again.
 
Excuse me? I don't think the moderators should be lecturing on condescension given what Kkapoios said to Wade. Why didn't you give him a warning? Apologies if I offended.
 
Because Kkapoios said that Wade didn't understand something and then tried to explain what he meant, whereas you greentexted and failed to respond to what I assume was something I said.

There is no rule against 4chan like behavior on this site, but I am aware of how negative it can be if it doesn't involve reasonable discussion and so I can't really tolerate it on here, especially in a non Fun/Games thread.
 
No you didn't. He used the formula to FIND a Richter number to find the Richter number. It's definitionally true. Lol.

The Richter scale IS logarithmic. You just keep using an argument from authority. Keep your logical fallacies to yourself. As I said before, it is an accurate calculator =/= we used it right. You also haven't proven his punches are more like a meteor KILOMETERS in width than an earthquake.

Again, ARGUMENT FROM AUTHORITY. And KKAP IS NOT ONE OF THOSE EXPERTS. Neither are you. The papers I linked on earthquakes disagree with you. If you want to rely on expertise, I have a lot more of it to back me up.

You haven't proven your point. You responded with fallacies and irrelevant material. I just did.

"And honestly? The calc was done by Kkapoios, a respected calc member on this site. I really don't need to justify it to you right now. You can look into the methods yourself."

Are you saying Kkapoios is a more respected calcer than GM? I mean, yet again you are pulling an ARGUMENT FROM AUTHORITY, and yet again I have more authority on my side.

I have looked into the methods and they disprove his calc. 90% of your arguments are just that "Experts say" nonsense, and even those fall short because I have more experts who agree with me.

Threatening to ban someone for offending you in such a minor way? That's really low. You should be ashamed of yourself. That's sick.
 
"Wade just because you don't understand something it doesn't make it wrong." = "You seem to be having trouble, let me help."?????? LOL!

This "Old boys club" of Admins is absolutely sickening.
 
Ok, I'll provide quotes then. Also, if you honestly are trying to convince me that Kkapoios remarks were not condescending, it is not working. Lol.

You said that GM used "a loose 'it is logarithmic' assumption." The portion of GM's calc that pertains to logarithms usesthe Richter scale, which is a logarithmic scale. I found it comical because you labelled it as an assumption, when it is a common fact.

I've never been on 4chan, lol.
 
Wade Kali Strine said:
1. No you didn't. He used the formula to FIND a Richter number to find the Richter number. It's definitionally true. Lol.
2. The Richter scale IS logarithmic.

3. You just keep using an argument from authority. Keep your logical fallacies to yourself. As I said before, it is an accurate calculator =/= we used it right.

4. You also haven't proven his punches are more like a meteor KILOMETERS in width than an earthquake.

5. The papers I linked on earthquakes disagree with you. If you want to rely on expertise, I have a lot more of it to back me up.

6. Are you saying Kkapoios is a more respected calcer than GM?

7. Threatening to ban someone for offending you in such a minor way? That's really low. You should be ashamed of yourself. That's sick.
1. He used the calculator to find the richter number, given the distance (I assume you are talking about Kka?). If not, please clarify. This is the intended use, given the paper .

2. The Richter scale is logarithmic, but if you notice, I was NOT talking about the Richter scale. I was talking about that chart regarding amplitude that GM pulled up. There is nothing that says usage of that chart involves logarithmic assumptions. It is not about the Richter scale proper, it is about his way of determining amplitude. Huge difference.

3. You don't understand what argument from authority is. It is when I MERELY say that an authority is right, not when I EXPLAIN what they said and why it applies (hence I did). Just spamming fallacies over and over doesn't make them right, you know? And TBH, I only said it because I knew you would eventually use "GM is a respected calc'er" as an argument (which you just did, even). So that point is negligible.

4. Again, it is not a model of a METEOR but of an ENERGETIC, ABOVE-GROUND EFFECT. Very applicable.

5. The paper you linked on EQ has nothing to do with my argument and merely concerns the radiated energy vs seismic moment energy argument. I am using radiated energy. GM is using radiated energy. This is not a concern in the least.

6. On this site, he is.

7. I don't threaten anything, membership on this site is not a guarantee and if you act against community rules you can be banned. I am very much justified in my warning.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top