The Redundancy Rule

https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/User_blog:Yobo_Blue/The_Redundancy_Rule

Now, this blog more or less dictates the overall issue with our rule on sub-powers and redundant powers.

I don't have any real opinion, but the three questions that really need to be answered are:

1. Is this rule really necessary?

2. What makes a power a sub-power or redundant?

3. Does being redundant or a sub-power always preclude a power from having a page?

(Note the above blog I'd just a small portion of relevant powers and abilities)

Yobo Blue said:

1. Is this rule really necessary?

2. What makes a power a sub-power or redundant?

3. Does being redundant or a sub-power always preclude a power from having a page?

Click to expand...

1: No

2: Open to interpretation or case by case, but normally it's a power(s) that can be achieved with another power, like how Empathic Manipulation can be used by Mind Manipulation users.

3: No

It's minor sub-powers that are being restricted, not sub-powers in general.

Point is we are not the superpower wiki, we don't try to index powers. If we didn't have a rule somewhat restricting power creation to what is reasonably necessary, we would just end up with countless hardly used powers and/or profiles with cluttered p&a sections, because powers are over segregated.

So the rule regarding power creation should be "As few as possible, as much as necessary".

Before I repost from my comments on the blog, I'd like to point out that there's necessarily a sweet spot that has to be reached on this. No restrictions on redundancy makes us end up like powerlisting wiki, where we'll get pages for fork mimicry and conceptual baking. Treating everything as redundant leaves us with Reality Warping as the only power. Anyway, onto the repost.

Genius Intelligence, Martial Arts, Nigh-Omniscience, Omniscience, Vehicular Mastery, Superhuman Physical Characteristics, and Superhuman Speed all imo seem to be relics of the older ways of wiki functioning. They also kind of seem intended to give powers to characters who don't actually have any special abilities. I'm fine with these being removed.

Stealth Mastery isn't just intelligence, and is often disjointed from it.

Nigh-Omnipresence and Omnipresence aren't like conventional speeds, and are more like abilities. They're included in the speed section since they're kind of comparable to a speed.

Time Stop and Time Manipulation should be separate, them being separate is a distinction often made in fiction. Many characters who resist time manipulation don't resist time stop, same with the other way around.

Resistance Negation might be able to be removed.

All those subsets of "Elemental Manipulation" should be distinct, since in most fiction controlling or resisting one of those things doesn't spread to controlling/resisting any other elements.

Nonexistent Physiology is a distinct power from being Non-Corporeal, and gives extra abilities that being Non-Corporeal doesn't.

It's probably good for Resurrection to have a whole page explaining it rather than a single sentence on the immortality page. Regenerationn needs to be its own thing since it has its own types, and it'd look pretty ugly to merge those with Immortality.

Fear Manipulation is more common as a standalone thing than something like "Happiness Manipulation" or "Sadness Manipulation", the rest of Empathic Manipulation is often combined together, and when it isn't it's much rarer than Fear Manipulation.

I'm neutral on Madness Manipulation.

Absolute Zero has specific requirements on being given, and specific additional abilities (durability negation) that it should probably stay separate.

Your point about Durability Negation is too vague.

Power Absorption is a different ability to Absorption.

Rage Power has extra effects that Statistics Amplification doesn't have, and seems to have enough notability to be a standalone thing.

I'm not sure why Toon Force was ever its own page, so I don't feel qualified to say whether it should stay or go.

Gravity Manipulation, Spatial Manipulation, etc. shouldn't go under Physics Manipulation. They usually don't actually change physics itself.

Weapon Creation shouldn't be its own thing, I've been moderately against it being created in the first place.

Abstract Existence Type 1 is distinct in that they're tied to a concept. That and its similarity to other, more distinct, types of Abstract Existence means it should stay as its own thing.

Aura isn't always actual literal energy. Energy Projection is a subset but it's common enough and doesn't let its users do many things Energy Manipulation allows for it to stand as its own page.

Plot Manipulation isn't always reality warping/fate manipulation. Every ability's technically reality warping.

Memory Manipulation is distinct in its application. Characters who can rewrite their own memories wouldn't be able to rewrite their personalities as mind manipulation would imply. When something's this common it's best to clarify it in its own page, rather than specifying "btw it only works on memories" on every single profile it has.

Perception Manipulation and Sense Manipulation aren't always Illusion Creation.

Reactive Power Level should be merged.

Animated Shadow is probably niche enough to be merged.

I'm neutral on Petrification.

Super Saiyan Transformations seems to me more like an explanation page for the verse's transformations rather than an actual separate power, and this seems fine to me, considering how large Dragon Ball is.

In summary:

Agree: Genius Intelligence, Martial Arts, Nigh-Omniscience, Omniscience, Vehicular Mastery, Superhuman Physical Characteristics, Superhuman Speed, Resistance Negation, Weapon Creation, Reactive Power Level, Animated Shadow

Disagree: Stealth Mastery, Nigh-Omnipresence, Omnipresence, Time Stop, subsets of Elemental Manipulation, Nonexistent Physiology, Resurrection, Regenerationn, Fear Manipulation, Absolute Zero, Durability Negation-esque abilities, Power Absorption, Rage Power, Gravity Manipulation, Spatial Manipulation, Abstract Existence Type 1, Aura, Energy Projection, Plot Manipulation, Memory Manipulation, Perception Manipulation, Sense Manipulation, Super Saiyan Transformations

Neutral: Madness Manipulation Type 2, Toon Force, Petrification

Thanks for your input. However, I don't believe that answers the other questions, so those are still worth talking about.

Also, if it does end up being accepted, i agree with Agnaa's list.

Yobo Blue said:

1. Is this rule really necessary?

2. What makes a power a sub-power or redundant?

3. Does being redundant or a sub-power always preclude a power from having a page?

Click to expand...

1. Yes.

2. Being close enough to another power to the point where it's rarely distinguished from it in fiction.

3. No, sub-powers can get their own pages if they're commonly enough used separately from the power they derive from.

Superhuman physical characteristic is one of the most recognizable super power there is. Not counting it as an ability really doesn't make much sense to me.

While it may often be recognized as a power, I feel like it essentially goes without saying on any page that it's on and is just there to bloat the power/abilities section without telling you anything applicable about the character.

But either way, I'm not dying on this hill. Whichever way this thread goes it's not a huge deal to me, but I wanted to say my piece on the topic.

Anything can be a sub-power or form of another power, so I'll suggest to just create subpowers/variations that are pretty common (Paralisys Inducement can be performed by several powers, such fear, biological, time, poison, ice, molecular manipulation and more; can't say the same for Burning that is mostly made by powers that are, or a mixture, or fire and heat manipulation, that could be considered redundant).

The only one of these that I would agree to being actually redundant is Power Absorption.

My take:

• I agree that Agnaa's first cluster is sorta unnecessary but don't think removing them is really worth it. Omniscence should definitely remain a page.

• Stealth mastery is pretty broad.

• The omnipresences aren't really redundant.

• What was resisted can be specified with a parentheses. Would be fine with a merge here.

• I think this was supposed to be removed and just sorta wasn't.. Don't really have an opinion on it.

• There is no universal set of elements. What an element is or is not varies from fiction to fiction. As such, the sub powers serve the role better.

• NEP is different from noncorproeal.

• If anything, the immortality #3 is the weird one. Ressurection also applies to people other than the user, and Regen has it's own categories and such.

• Fear can also be a biological response, and I have seen this considered distinct from it's parent abilities myself.

• Idk about madness stuff.

• Stuff at extremely low temperatures like Absolute Zero behaves very differently from normal matter. A page is helpful in explaining these effects.

• Will check dura negation later. Having issues opening the blog so I can only really go off of Agnaa's comment and what I glanced at earlier.*

I agree that power absorb is redundant

• I think the focus on rage power is the anger part more than anything else, though I find this redundant personally.

• Neutral on toonforce.

• Physics manipulation would be for changing the laws of physics themselves, which spatial manipulation and gravity manipulation don't necessarily do. Just because you ignore the laws doesn't mean you've warped them.

• Weapon creation is really redundant. Literally just creation but more specific, I see no reason why the files can't just be like (created some gun) or something.

• I need to see the blog again for the abstract thing

• Aura can be white diverse. For instance, The Warpriest has one made of Lawhax, as opposed to energy or something.

• Plot should stay distinct. It's another "do anything" power like RW, Law, Magic, etc and should be specified anyways.

• Probably just due to the sheer prevalence of having memories only be altered, it's fine. I will disagree on one point though, that being that you can absolutely change someone's personality via rewriting all that they remember. Their personalities are gonna be built on their experiences and their memories of them.

• Sense manip could merge with perception, but they aren't related to illusions.

• I need to see the blog to see what RPI is being merged with.

• Wouldn't this fall under Darkness Manipulation?

• Petrification to me just seems like more specific trabsmutatitrabsmutatitr.

• Dragon Ball is dragon Ball so this has probably been discussed over 8 threads and they probably sucked and it's probably just best to not mess with that.

As for the questions:

• It's less an official rule and more a guideline, but I'd say yes.

• When its functions are encompassed by some other broader power without being sufficiently distinct from the parent power. A prime example is Weapon Creation and Creation.

• If the subpower is prevalent enough, like memory manip, it can likely stay.

When this is sorted it out, it may be prudent to make a page for power and ability creation rules.

I've also added more examples to the blog, although that doesn't make too much of a difference.

DontTalkDT said:

It's minor sub-powers that are being restricted, not sub-powers in general.

Point is we are not the superpower wiki, we don't try to index powers. If we didn't have a rule somewhat restricting power creation to what is reasonably necessary, we would just end up with countless hardly used powers and/or profiles with cluttered p&a sections, because powers are over segregated.

So the rule regarding power creation should be "As few as possible, as much as necessary".

Click to expand...

I strongly agree with this.

1. Yes.

2. Being close enough to another power to the point where it's rarely distinguished from it in fiction.

3. No, sub-powers can get their own pages if they're commonly enough used separately from the power they derive from.

I agree with this as well.

However, I do not have a problem with our current powers and abilities pages, and think that they can stay as they are. Getting rid of several of them and updating all of the hundreds of pages that link to them would be yet another of our recent "massive unnecessary revisions that waste our time and energy for little to no gain" threads, as Sera might have put it.

Could physics manipulation be considered redundant with law manipulation?

Andytrenom said:

Could physics manipulation be considered redundant with law manipulation?

Click to expand...

Not really, since it is debatable within a verse if they are considered laws

Iapitus The Impaler said:

Not really, since it is debatable within a verse if they are considered laws

Click to expand...

True, but I feel like many profiles just have Law Manipulation unnecessarely because their ability could very well be described just as Reality Warping.

And yeah, a lot of things can fall uner Physics Manipulation.

I disagree with power absorption being removed btw if that's what anyone is planning. I think it definitely fits the "sub power common and notable enough to be featured separately" criteria.

I also think weapon creation is fine. Specifically creating a weapon or collection of weapons isn't exactly a niche power.

Animated Shadow and Supernatural Luck are the only two abilities so far which I think are genuinely redundant.

I personally think that all of them seem mostly fine.

So, is there a agreement that has been reached?

I think that we should keep as many as possible. They are mostly useful and at worst do not cause any harm.

I already commented in the blog, but just as Wok I'm going to post my suggestions here:

• Stealth Mastery, Martial Arts nor Vehicle Mastery have little to do with Enhanced Intelligence; and Omniscience is simply eyond quickly understand something.
• I'm neutral about this.
• Neutral, although Omnipresence s not exactly related to speed.
• Technically true.
• Also true (although, I though we concluded this "issue" time ago).
• Despite being technically true, we can't simply link any element manipulation to that page (not now).
• Nonexistent beings are (or can turn) non-corporeal, but not all non-corporeals are nonexistent.
• Regen is most of the time "pretty hard to kill" rather than "impossible to kill"; Resurrection goes against Immortality's nature, since immortality is "unable to die", while resurrection is "coming back after die", power do not necessary apply to oneself too.
• Technically true.
• Technically true.
• Technically true.
• "The ability that allows the user to damage the target, regardless of durability", yes, one needs to cause damage in order to be considered Durability Negation (although, I would re-write it a little, otherwise any non-damaging power would fall under this power).
• Technically true.
• Technically true.
• I think that Toon Power could be considered a form of Reality Warping, yes, so technically true.
• Mmm, this would be pretty general, and you could say most powers falls under this category.
• Technically true.
• I actually ignore what Abstract Existance is.
• Somehow true.
• Reality Warping, Nigh-Omnipotence, depends how is used.
• Those are associated powers, that do not makes Memory Manipulation as a sub-power of these.
• Sense Manipulation could do more than simply cheat someone's senses, they can reduce, enhance or remove them. Perception Manipulation would be like Sense Manipulation + Mind Manipulation, since it also change how the target process the information within its mind.
• More like Reactive Evolution is related to Accelerated Development (being this one an enhanced version of the last one). Either one, they fall under Adaptation.
• Technically true, although, one can say its also a form of Animation (if the power is created).
• Technically true.
• Mmm, that's is Verse's exclusive (didn't known we have that page).

Note that I not necessary agree with any change under "technically true" comment, just that you're technically right.

Additionally here's the other comments about the most recent "suggestions":

• I guess is that way due some calculations (such Earthquake Chart) involve some tables that takes too much space, and changing it to one page would be too complicated for few.
• Technically true.
• Could be considered Teleportation, yes, but is not a variation nor a subpower most of the time. Same can say about BFR.
• Didn't even known we have Text Manipulation, not known what do exactly.
• Technically true, Chi would be Life-Force (some actually tried to make a page about that power).
• Danmaku is a technic, not a power, like the now erased Spin Dash.
• Heat Vision is a technic of Pyrokinesis, although one can change it to Vision Attack just like Breath Attacks.
• Neutral.
• Could be Technokinesis or via intuition/intelligence.
• Technically true.

"As few as possible, as much as necessary"

Yup.

Personally i feel like only Superhuman Speed, Resistance Negation, Weapon Creation and Animated Shadow are the only ones trully unecessary to be honest.

I mean, usually characters who had Superhuman Speed tend to possess also Superhuman Strength and Superhuman Durability, Flash is a perfect example.

Animated Shadow and Resistance Negation are specific powers that very few characters had, far too specific.

And about Stealth Mastery, Martial Arts and Vehicle Mastery, while they are not actually powers they can still be described as abilities, while Genius Intelligience can be described as a superpower.

Instead of animated shadow, we could probably have Shadow Manipulation as a subset of darkness manipulation. I don't know if even that is necessary.

I admit that animated shadow may be unnecessary.

Shadow Manipulation is just another name for Darkness Manipulation, so that would be even more redundant (within one page).

Suggestion would be to get rid of Animated Shadow and Resistance Negation, or create the pages Animation and Immunity Bypassing to replace them. Weapon Creation should be join with Creation's page either way. Superhuman Speed could be its own thing butbin the way the wiki deals with speed makes it useless.

I personally don't mind weapon creation, but it depends on what the rest of you think.

I think it's fine as well.