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Akabane Kuroudo vs John Taylor

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Firephoenixearl said:
Passive Law, fate and power mod?
Can John deal with those? This may be good otherwise.
I already went into why Getbackers passive law hax won't stop Tier 1 powers unless it actually has feats of nulling them, or simply prevents the user from doing anything at all. Neither seem to be the case.

Passive fate manipulation gets FOH'd by Type 4 acausality.

Power modification (assuming it would even work on Tier 1 powers to begin with) only matters if he can do it before John kills him with something.

I also want to point out that John can "find" Akabane's innate abilities and very literally rip them out of him.

from Hex and the City
She came at me with the other knife, and I reached deep inside myself, powered up my gift, opened up my third eye, and found within Bad Penny the magic that allowed her always to turn up unexpectedly. And it was the easiest thing in the world for me to shut down that magic and rip it right out of her, taking away her ability to turn up anywhere at all. She looked at me with horror as she lost her grip on the world and faded slowly and silently away, never to return.
I waved good-bye. I don't think I smiled. I don't like to think I might have smiled.
Or "find" what he was prior to attaining his powers and force that on him, reverting his entire being back to what it was before he even had any abilities.

from Nightingale's Lament
She stretched slowly, voluptuous beyond reason. "Don't you want me, John? I can be anyone you ever wanted, and you can do things with me you wouldn't dare do with them. I live for pleasure, and my flesh is very accommodating."
"No." I made myself say it, even though the effort brought beads of sweat out on my face. I learned self-discipline early, just to stay alive. And I was used to not getting what I wanted. But it still took everything I had to stay where I was. "I need ... to talk to you, Sylvia. About the Cavendishes."

"Oh, I don't think about them any more. I don't care about the outside world. I have made my own little world here, and it is perfect. I never leave it. I glory in it. Have you come here to tell me of the Nightside? Is it still full of sin? How long has it been, since I came here?"

"Just over a year," I said, taking a step forward.

"Is that all? It feels like centuries to me. But then time passes so slowly, in Heaven and Hell."

I took another step forward. Her body called to my body, in a voice as old as the world. I knew it would cost me my life and my soul, and I didn't care. Except some small part of me, screaming deep within me, still did care. So I did the only thing I could do, to save myself. I called up my gift, my power, and looked at Sylvia Sin with my third eye, my private eye. I used my gift to find the woman she used to be, before the Cavendishes changed her, and brought her back.

Sylvia screamed, convulsing on the bed, her white flesh boiling and seething, then one shape snapped into focus, one body rising suddenly out of all the others, and the changes stopped. Sylvia lay on the bed, curled up into a ball, breathing hard. One woman, with flesh-coloured flesh and a pretty, ordinary face. I was breathing hard, too, like a man who'd just stepped back from the very brink of a cliff. The overpowering sexual pressure was gone from the room, though faint vestiges of its presence still lingered on the air. Sylvia sat up slowly on the bed, naked and normal, and looked at me with merely human eyes.

"What did you do? What have you done to me?"

"I've given you back yourself," I said. "You're free now. Entirely normal."
He has many other options which I'll go into later, but if he doesn't do either of those two right away, he can do so at any time.
 
Well the law hax as i said works like probability manipulation, by erasing the possibility of a loss. So something he can't believe outright cannot happen. Which is why logic is listed as prob manip among other things. So yeah coming from the fact that a 9-B is getting forced to lose by a 2-A word, he likely ain't using it.

Type 4...hmm...show him something he hasn't affected with fate hax. All transcendentials have type 4.

Yeah...my bad on power mod xD. Not reaching tier 1 anytime soon inb4 i upgrade transcendentials to 1A

Killing akabane wont help due to type 9 and the fact that he's literally a clone.

Will time reversal work on type 4? Also how does it interact with clones?

Can John deal with info manip?
 
And you still haven't provided any proof that such a thing stops a power with Tier 1 potency from working, or that it would prevent John from ever using his powers. Negating laws and possibilities on a 2-A scale doesn't mean anything against a power that operates on an unfathomably higher scale, not unless it's stopping the user from using said power to begin with.

John's Type 4 defied passive fate manipulation from Lilith, whose mere presence was causing all of the timelines and possible futures (of which there are infinite) to disappear and narrow down to one possible outcome.

John located the heart/true essence of an Outsider from a higher dimension, then "found" its death and killed it permanently. I'm pretty sure he can bypass Type 9.

If you're talking about the thing he did to Sylvia Sin, it isn't time reversal. He's taking the form you had before you got your powers and resetting your entire being to that mortal form. The woman he did this on also existed as every possible sexual desire at once, so it should be more than potent enough to work on him.

Now that I think about it...the Nightside has a man with nearly identical powers in the form of Tommy Oblivion. He seems to have his own gift that functions as probability manip and info manip, where he can "persuade" reality to see things his way, rewriting the logic of reality based on his beliefs. See below.

from Paths Not Taken
Tommy looked at me to see what I was going to do, and I looked right back at him. I had a few useful tricks up my sleeve, but I was interested to see what the famous existential detective could do. He smiled easily and approached the two statues.
"Do be reasonable and stand aside, chaps. We have business inside." "None shall pass," said the statue on the left, its voice like grating rocks.

"Now that is interesting," said Tommy. "How is it you're able to talk, considering you almost certainly don't have any vocal cords?" The statue looked at him blankly. "What?"

"Well, I mean, I don't see how you're even able to move, old thing. Being solid stone and all. It's not as if you have any musculature, or even joints. How can you even think to act, when you have no brain? How can you be living, when no part of you is living matter? You're quite clearly stone, and nothing but stone, and therefore you cannot be alive, or think, or act."

The statues had clearly never considered this before, and impressed by Tommy's relentless logic, they stepped back up onto their pedestals and reverted to unmoving statues. I kicked the one on the left, just to be sure, but it didn't budge. I grinned at the bewildered Eamonn.

"That's Tommy's gift-to ask the unanswerable question, to raise doubts on any matter and confuse any situation beyond retrieval. He could talk all four legs off a donkey, then persuade it to fly him home. Demons from Hell have been known to run screaming from his appalling logic. Which is kind of scary, when you think about it."


"How very kind," Tommy drawled. "I think we can all learn a lesson here, you know. It doesn't always have to end in violence."

"Bet it will," I said.

"Well of course," said Tommy. "You're here."

"I have an idea," he said, reluctantly. By now he was standing so close to me he was practically pushing me over. "But I have to say, it is rather ... risky."

"Do it," I said. "I'm not going into those Shadows alive."

Tommy frowned, concentrating, and I could feel his gift activating, as though suddenly there was a third person standing there with us. The Shadow Men were all around us now, almost close enough to touch us. I could feel my heart hammering in my chest, and I could hardly get my breath. Tommy spoke slowly, thoughtfully, as though saying the words aloud made them certain, incontrovertible.

"I deal in probabilities. In the nature of shifting reality. I persuade the world to see things my way. And since there is a small but very real chance that we could have got to Time Tower Square before the Shadow Men could find us ... I believe that is what really happened."

And in the blink of an eye, we were somewhere else. The dark street was gone, replaced by the quiet cul-de-sac that was Time Tower Square. Tommy let out his breath in a long, shuddering sigh.

"That's it. We are here. All previous possibilities are now redundant, never happened."


His gift shut down, like a dangerous animal reluctantly going to sleep. I looked carefully around me, but all the shadows in the Square were only shadows. A few people were strolling up and down, intent on their own business. They hadn't noticed anything, because there had been nothing to notice. We'd always been there.

"You can persuade reality itself to go along with your wishes? That's one hell of a gift you've got there, Tommy. Why aren't you running things in the Nightside?"

"Because using my gift that way diminishes me," Tommy said tiredly. "Every time I use it, the less real I become. Less certain, less anchored in reality. Use the gift too much, and I'd become too unlikely, too impossible to exist."
When John raised his gift at the same time as Tommy, their powers clashed with each other, preventing either of them from being able to fully manifest at the same time. The only reason John's gift didn't straight up overpower Tommy's is because Tommy's powers were just as strong as his.

also from Paths Not Taken
"You're Lilith's only son," said Tommy. "You'd let the dream of Camelot die, just to further your own ambitions. I see right through you, Taylor. And I'll see you die first!"
He raised his gift, but I was already raising mine, and the whole bar shook as our powers manifested and clashed head-on. I used my gift to try and find his weaknesses, and he used his to try and reinforce a reality where I never reached the sixth century. My gift dealt with certainties, his with probabilities, and neither was really strong enough to overcome the other. We both put all our strength into this clash of wills, and reality itself became hazy and uncertain around us, until it seemed the whole bar might unravel, leaving us the only fixed and real things in the world.
So it's entirely possible that the act of John raising his gift will simply stomp out Akabane's power entirely. Since, as potent as he is, his powers don't have feats anywhere near what John has done with his gift.
 
I don't think you can just assume, John, a 3D being with no resistance to PM, will be able to go against having his probability of winning erased on a 2-A level (or his prob of losing forced). He may have 1-B hax, but his RW is still something he has to activate "after" having his probability manipulated. I really don't see John fighting against that.

Moot point. Has lilith ever used her hax on a type 4 before? Level of hax is not a factor in acausality. Akabane also exists in a different time flow negging hax from this type 5 The Archiver. So unless Lilith has haxed type 4's before, Akabane's fate manip will still work.

Hmm ok fair enough. But would he understand about the type 9's existence?

Hmm, then that's easier. Even Ginji Amano or freaking fodder time-space transcendentials like Paul Wan can do the same. Paul can bring his young self into the present (as in flow upstream his own time flow so that he gets younger), quite literally replacing his old self with his young self without time travel. When Paul did this he lost all his battle experience, similarly when ginji did it, he didn't even have any memories cus he didn't recognize past as "past" before. But yeah he can just do the same if his being is replaced.

Hmm i saw the probability part, i don't see where the info manip comes from in that.

Yeah true, though there is 1 key difference here. Akabane's stuff is passive, so it is there before John even thinks about raising his gift. John will always be under it's effects.
 
My last post just got eaten. -_-

I don't feel like typing it out again right now, but I'll try posting it again later.
 
Alright...

1. If it's based entirely on probability, then John's Type 4 acausality takes care of it completely.

2. Potency absolutely matters against acausality. You don't see me arguing that a 3-D being with Type 4 ignores probability manipulation from Destiny of the Endless without feats on that level. Same principle applies here in reverse; John's Type 4 countered fate manipulation that was far beyond what Akabane appears to have done.

3. [looks at the Archiver's justification for Type 5]

  • (Type 5, Archiver is the one who created the entire reality of GetBackers world and sees it nothing more than data and created a Fate/path in history for everyone that could not be diverted from and even if diversion happens, the diverted path would ultimately lead to the main path. Can use Houjutsu as well as create the undead immortal monsters in the beltline with no Souls. Archiver disintegrated Makubex and sent him to the Archives with his memory wiped where Makubex could watch and remember everything)
....That isn't Type 5 acausality at all. Being a creator of a setting doesn't give you complete transcendence over causality as a system by itself, or else every creator being would have Type 5. The bit about "creating a Fate/path in history for everyone" is just Fate Manipulation, and the rest doesn't have anything to do with acausality whatsoever.

4. What he did to Sylvia didn't have anything to do with affecting or manipulating time, hence why she still had all of her memories from before he changed her back. So no, it's not the same.

5. Tommy deals in probabilities, but his actual power involves replacing the logic of reality with his own belief. The quotes above showcase that quite thoroughly.

6. It being passive doesn't matter if the mere act of John raising his gift forces Akabane's abilities to clash with his own. And if their powers clash, John's will overpower his completely, due to being stronger by several orders of magnitude.
 
1. I give up here. We only tried to give it an actual name for the power. They call the ability "Logic Manipulation" in verse. It works by "if i can't imagine it happening, it can't happen", so these are just deductions nothing set in stone. If you can help with what this'd be then that'd be nice.

2. Yes, but there is a difference here. They have the same hax potency, however one (besides being acasual on his own), has also affected other acasuals before.

4. Hmm doesn't mean he can't just change back no? I mean he could still bring his true self by flowing up time. The transformation doesn't affect someone's self throughout the entire timeline. But then again they are just clones, they don't have a "past self" since they are created as clones of the real akabane, not as babies.

5. Ok logic, sure, logic can be anything though, not necessarily info manip.

6. It does matter though. He'll be under a 2-A control of probability before he can even think of anything, let alone raise his gift. He had the chance to raise his gift against Tommy cus it wasn't passive, it won't work the same way against a passive ability that has done it's job before anything else.
 
1. Some quotes or scans would be helpful as far as that goes.

2. If the Archiver's acausality isn't legit (which doesn't seem to be the case, going by the description), then this point is moot. But even then, I would put "passive 2-A range fatehax from a 1-B existing in space-time" above "passive 2-A fatehax", so it's pretty moot anyway.

4. Under that logic, John could just "find" the real Akabane after his eye shows him that he's a clone, then hax him into the ground. Or find the connection between the real Akabane and his clones and sever that, like he did with the connection between the Lamentation and its army.

5. The underlying point is that it works almost identically to how Akabane's powers seem to work. With Akabane, it's "Nothing I don't believe in can happen", and with Tommy it's "Anything I believe in can happen if I talk reality into it".

6. As far as him being under control of probability, refer to 1 (in my previous comment) and 2 (in this one). And even then, I've yet to see any proof that Akabane's powers would prevent him from raising his gift at all, so until I see that, there's nothing stopping John from raising his gift, clashing with Akabane and stomping out the latter's powers with his own.
 
Possibly?

I'll be perfectly blunt, I don't trust these profiles now that I've read them. A lot of the justifications make no damn sense, and there's almost no sourcing for any of it. (And considering the series is a manga, there's no excuse for that)

To say nothing of the fact that the only supporter I've seen just admitted that he has no idea what Akabane's primary ability is actually supposed to be classified as.
 
Archived ain't going to 5b don't worry. And king the thing is we tried to decide on it all being a basis of info manip, but the exact applications range from fate hax, to null to modification to immortality etc. So them saying I can't imagine losing and since I posses logic I can't lose makes this application a bit hard to decide upon. We kind of settled it as law manip kind of like saying "light is the fastest" and "ban/aka cannot lose". But those are just deductions made by me and 2 other supporters. Also I do believe I have posted quite a bit of scan and proof for my stuff check Ban Midou for example. Also again, archiver ain't going down to 5b.
 
TFW John uses his gift to bring forth the possibility of GetBackers actually getting severe changes based off of wonky things, causing this entire match to explode in Schnee and Earl's face
 
Alright, I went through Akabane's page again. A lot of this needs far better justification than what's there, and other powers just seem flatout wrong.

On Akabane's page alone:

  • Durability Negation, Reality Warping, Power Nullification, Probability Manipulation, Quantum Manipulation and Law Manipulation With Divine Providence (As long as he can't imagine something it cannot materialize. This gives Akabane Immortality, the ability to Nullify Powers and the inability to lose, though not to the extent of Ban Midou. His powers work on the same principles as Quantum Uncertainty where Wave Function Collapse determines the Reality and as such, if he doesn't believe in something then it won't exist and if he does, then the possibility of it would definitely happen)
There is exactly one scan linked, and it doesn't justify 90% of what's said here. Also, since when do we let profiles have "the inability to lose" as a power?

  • Body Control (Can Store an absurd number of Weapons in his Body)
That...isn't Body Control.

  • Homing Attack (Can Telekinetically Control his Weapons and can make them fly, chase, and attack any Target)
...See above. This isn't homing attacks; it's just Akabane guiding his weapons with TK. We aren't giving Trigon Slade homing attacks just because he can guide his pyrokinetic projectiles.

  • Metaphysics Manipulation and Negation (Works on the Principal that no matter what, the Low cannot stand against the High. A powerful Logic user like Akabane can create Logic to overpower the Logic of Reality, this applies to Magic as well as not even it can escape Logic. Akabane is capable of Nullifying Powers, Immortality and even unique traits)
This is basically restating the Divine Providence stuff from before, and is given almost no context. Also, "Negation" was merged with Power Nullification a while back, so that shouldn't be there....Also (again), what the hell is "Metaphysics Manipulation"?

  • Fate Manipulation (What imagination shows, determines the fate and in context his imaginations could change fate)
..............What? I just...What?

  • [Resistance to] Power Nullification (Initially Tanked Ban's Asceplius attacks that destroyed and could have erased Help)
It would be nice if someone could elaborate on what the hell this is supposed to mean...

  • Resistance to--
If his powers is supposed to be that "nothing can affect him if he doesn't believe in it", aren't 90% of these just a byproduct of that, rather than actual resistances? I might actually be able to determine that if there were any context whatsoever.

And that's just what caught my eye despite having never read this series a day in my life. I'm sure there's far more of his page that needs analysis, and the other GetBackers profiles (Ban, The Archiver, The Voodoo King, etc.) appear to have similar problems.

Something needs to be done here.
 
I remember someone was going through the series compiling all the feats.

But yea currently the profiles seem pretty wonky to me.
 
Celestial Pegasus said:
I remember someone was going through the series compiling all the feats.

But yea currently the profiles seem pretty wonky to me.
I'm the one doing it. I've reached Act 9 so far and their are 12 Acts.

Most of the stuff on their profiles hasn't even appeared yet.

Take Akabane for example. He has all that passive hax that sounds overpowering but he got bodied by someone who is pretty haxless and said person wasn't stronger than him. If Akabane followed the "Strongest Win" logic, that guy wouldn't have been able to even win their first round.

But I digress, their is still a chance all their stuff is legitimate but so far it's not all legit. If I'm not mistaking, all the crazy stuff written on their profiles happens until the end of the Manga when they go back to infinity fortress but some of that can be taken out of context because the writer doesn't really know what he's talking about at times.
 
LordGriffin1000 said:
Take Akabane for example. He has all that passive hax that sounds overpowering but he got bodied by someone who is pretty haxless and said person wasn't stronger than him. If Akabane followed the "Strongest Win" logic, that guy wouldn't have been able to even win their first round.
MrKingOfNegativity said:
Sad-joker
You can't be serious...
 
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