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Another Bayonetta Upgrade (A BIG ONE THIS TIME)

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WeeklyBattles

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So Ever and I were just discussing, and may have found some significant Bayonetta upgrades and, looking over the lore and quotes of Father Balder, Jubileus, and Aesir, we believe we've found a massive upgrade for the god-tiers of the verse.

Jubileus' Lore:

Humanity, bound to the physical world, was forced to depict and describe her in its own tongue. It is supposed that humanity selected the name Jubileus, taken from the word jubilee, meaning a celebration of rejoicing, in an attempt to turn Divine Will into worldly happiness via repeated recital of His name. As a result of the cataclysmic events of the ancient First Armageddon, of which she sat at the very apex, Jubileus was forced into dominion over the world of Paradiso, governor of the light amongst the Trinity of Realities, and put into an endless slumber.

The First Armageddon was an ancient event that occurred from a time before history and led to the creation of the Bayonetta universe. As a result of an unequal balance of light and dark and a subsequent struggle between those forces, the First Armageddon caused reality to split itself into aspects of light, darkness, and chaos, Forming the Trinity of Realities and resulting in the destruction of the previous universe and the creation of the current one. Jubileus was at the center of this event when it occurred, but there's more.

It was from this point that the forces of light and dark began their endless battle for hegemony. The resurrection of Jubileus would trigger a reunification of the Trinity of Realities, fulfilling the desires of not only the forces of light, but also a centuries-old prayer said by those seeking divine intervention."

It is stated that when Jubileus is resurrected she would be able to reunite the Trinity into a single universe. This was Father Balder's motivation for resurrecting the deity, and he even states several times that he would use Jubileus' power to rewrite the universe.

"Jubileus will be resurrected, we will become the Eyes of the World, and a new universe will take hold!"

"Light, dark, and chaos between. Three realities once split shall be brought together to create a new universe in the image of the old."

"The time has come for Jubileus to return! At last, the Trinity of Realities will know their real ruler, and time will begin anew!"

"No one can control Jubileus now. Its power is too intense...Light, Dark, human. All the strife, all the struggle...The Trinities of Reality wrapped up in a vortex of creation!"

However, when Jubileus was revived she only had one of the Eyes of the World, and was therefore only at half power. If Jubileus is Universe level at full power, being at half power would make her Multi-Galaxy level, which would scale to Queen Sheba (Her stated equal), Bayonetta with the Left Eye (Fought and defeated Jubileus), Balder with the Right Eye (Equal to Bayonetta with the Left Eye), Loptr with the Right Eye (Comparable to Jubileus), and both Father Rodin (Stated to be just slightly weaker than Jubileus) and Rodin the Infinite One (Stated to be stronger than Queen Sheba).

Aesir's Lore:

"The Legend of Aesir... A legend from the dawn of time.

Nobody knows where the world came from. A struggle caused the Trinity of Realities to be split into three realms: light, darkness, and chaos. Obviously, our world was the one born from chaos. The three worlds all needed rulers. Most of all, ours. And the one that ruled the chaos became known as Aesir. Aesir spent the first eternity quietly looking upon the Earth from his holy mountain. Where we only see reality and make it match our rules of the world, Aesir saw through reality, and those visions became our world. These observations became Aesir's power. Aesir's eyes were truly the eyes that created the world."


Similar to Jubileus, Aesir was around at the time of the First Armageddon and was tasked with ruling the Human World, the chaos portion, one third of the universe. There is one part of his lore though that makes him different from Jubileus.

However, Aesir pitied the humans for their naivety and lack of free will, so the power he wielded was split into two equal halves and entrusted each to humanity's instincts: the Right Eye of Light, and the Left Eye of Darkness."

Aesir was the one who CREATED the Eyes of the World. The Eyes of the World that nearly gave Jubileus the power to rewrite the entire universe and merge the Trinity of Reality into a single realm under the rule of Paradiso. Not only that, but he also split his soul into two halves; Loki and Loptr. In the game Loptr managed to not only defeat Balder, who had the Right Eye at the time, but also absorbed it, and then defeated Bayonetta and absorbed the Left Eye, becoming Aesir once again. Jubileus with both Eyes would have had the power to rewrite the universe, so it's safe to assume that Aesir, the CREATOR of the Eyes, would have this level of power. He even goes so far as to state that his will would become that of the universe. With this it should be fair to say that Aesir, Omne (The demon used to destroy Aesir), and Bayonetta 2 Bayonetta and Balder (Both fought Aesir with the Eyes, Bayonetta briefly fought him on her own) can be changed to 3-A.

Conclusion: Jubileus, Queen Sheba, Bayonetta with the Left Eye, Balder with the Right Eye, Loptr with the Right Eye, and both Father Rodin and Rodin the Infinite One be moved to 3-B, while Aesir, Omne, and Bayonetta 2 Bayonetta and Balder be changed to 3-A.
 
I agree with these upgrades, although I think that the word "At Most" could be used in these cases.

Also, I would appreciate that the pages at least maintained the old Attack Potency feats and explanations, even if only in the "feats" portion.

Again, I agree with these upgrades, but the sheer level of them in contrast to the "on-screen feats" may raise some eyebrows. Proper explanations in the Attack Potency sections would be needed.
 
So now thats 9(?) people approving the upgrade and whatever Cross is. I believe this is enough.
 
Well i didn't want to imply nor vote yet but i do say that if this is legit case based on both lores, i don't think it wouldn't hurt to upgrade them to 3-B/3-A level.

Though i'd put them to like what Matt suggested earlier...
 
I am always suspicious about powerscaling if in-game feats don't remotely hold up with what is demonstrated, but oh well that is just how lore things are done, I guess.

Let me throw in a question either way:

How does it stand with them being glass canons? Do we have any durability feats to match the god tiers stated AP?
 
The Everlasting said:
Jubileus sat at the very apex of the First Armageddon.
Was that a destructive event? Timelines can be split without destruction caused and any beings harmed.

EDIT: And what about Aesir?
 
It wasnt time that was split though, it was reality itself, the entire fabric of the universe, that was split into three different realities. Unless that's what you meant by timeline in which case i'm a dumb.
 
The Everlasting said:
Considering how the event was described as "cataclysmic", it probably was destructive.
Hmm... Well, I guess for him it's ok then.

Which leaves the question how it is with Aesir. You wrote he was around, but I suppose the distinction between in the apex and not means he didn't tank the universe split thingy?
 
Well, in that departement I would then not scale characters to him just for defeating him if we don't know about durability.

Edit: You maybe also want to wait 12 hours or something before making the change. You know, just so that people around the world all get the chance to read the thread and contribute.
 
I mean, would not being in the center of an event that split reality itself be any different from being in the center?

Plus, would it be incorrect to assume Aesir simply has comparable durability to Jubileus? They are of similar levels of power, after all.
 
Are we sure that each of the individual forces themselves are exactly one-third of the total power? It sort of seems to be set up so that all three must be brought together in order to rewrite the unvierse, otherwise one should simply have one of them and warp one-third of it three times, then boom, whole universe rewritten.

On the other hand, though, each of the three forces were apparently split into entirely different realms as part of the struggle between the forces:

"Nobody knows where the world came from. A struggle caused the Trinity of Realities to be split into three realms: light, darkness, and chaos."

So there's that? I don't know, this is just confusing.

Is it ever elaborated on what exactly went down during the First Armageddon? That might matter.
 
The issue is, if Jubileus was not summoned with all three powers, she would be completely uncontrollable, evident by her behavior during her boss fight.

The events of the First Armageddon are relatively vague, all we know is what is described in lore, the important parts being mentioned above.
 
The Everlasting said:
I mean, would not being in the center of an event that split reality itself be any different from being in the center?
Plus, would it be incorrect to assume Aesir simply has comparable durability to Jubileus? They are of similar levels of power, after all.

Similar levels of Attack potency, but similar levels in overall stats?

And such events usually don't have a center, so the fact that a center is mentioned would mean that there is a relevant distinction between center and not center, right?
 
@DT

Overall stats. We have, tons of times, had things like "should be comparable to/superior to", without actual feats of that level, simply because it makes sense for the characters to have comparability towards each other.

They used the word "apex" (I just called it center because it's easier for me), and it could simply mean Jubileus was where the First Armageddon started, as opposed to being elsewhere when it happened.
 
Well, if they are stated to be comparable then that is fine, if it is just because both are universal I find it questionable.

Two things that came to mind as I read a bit through their pages on another wiki:

For one thing quote on aesir being around at the first armageddon. It isn't in the quotes given and is also not mentioned on the wiki.

The other thing is about the characters that are supposed to scale because they fought aesir. Per wiki Loki made Aesir loose his original powers during the battle, or something. So were the characters capable to do a relevant amount of damage before that happened?
 
Aight.

Are you sure? "The Legend of Aesir" lists the quotes given.

Yeah, they went through a full-on fight before Loki destroyed the Eyes.
 
The Everlasting said:
Are you sure? "The Legend of Aesir" lists the quotes given.
ctrl+f'd it doesnt mention Armageddon once.

They went through a fight, but did they cause relevant damage on their own?
 
"A struggle caused the Trinity of Realities to be split into three realms: light, darkness, and chaos. Obviously, our world was the one born from chaos. The three worlds all needed rulers. Most of all, ours. And the one that ruled the chaos became known as Aesir. "

The "struggle" is the First Armageddon.

Yeah, they caused quite a fair bit.
 
I see Aesir only mentioned after the realms were split in that quote.


Well, if they caused relevant damage that is fine.
 
Yeah, checking it over, it's not directly mentioned if Aesir was present during the First Armageddon, it's just stated that he appeared afterwards, with no very exact point of origin. However, would his status as the creator of the Eyes of the World as well as general parity with Jubileus still warrant the scaling?

There's also the fact that the Eyes appear to boost durability (As seen with Bayonetta tanking attacks from Jubileus), and Aesir has his power from both Eyes, and is their creator.
 
Well, the question is really if you have something to establish general comparability.

As far as I see they don't hold a similar position and are also otherwise mostly unrelated. He made powerful artifacts, but creation of powerful artifacts doesn't mean much in that matter (humans can build universal stuff, like in Xenoblade for example).

If it really is just that both are universal than I don't think that it is enough.


Scaling his durability from Bayonetta or other characters that have feats through the power of the eyes would work, if he has the eyes power.
 
@DT

So overall the scaling can still work, but not for the first reason I stated? Also (Not familiar with Xenoblade so I'm only guessing on what you're referring to), but creating mystical artifacts is a little different from creating scientific objects.
 
How do we know that having one of three eyes makes them capable of anything near universe level? What if the effect is multiplicative and not additive? Is there any lore to that assumption?
 
Well, the two Eyes are considered equal in importance and power, as Balder and Bayonetta are almost completely evenly matched, with the latter dominating the former in their fight in the first game while Balder nearly killed the latter in their fights in Bayonetta 2.

Balder also mentions "Light and Dark. Unless both eyes remain the Universe will lose its balance.", implying both eyes have equal power, and thus half the power to reshape the universe.

I'm not sure if this helps much, but I thought I'd might add this.
 
Hmm. This seems reasonable up to a point.

The issue is that, as far as I have understood, none of the characters displayed anywhere near this level of power in practice, so perhaps we should rate them as their old tiers in practical combat, while also writing "3-A via hax/reality warping unusable for practical combat purposes"?
 
Antvasima said:
Hmm. This seems reasonable up to a point.
The issue is that, as far as I have understood, none of the characters displayed anywhere near this level of power in practice, so perhaps we should rate them as their old tiers in practical combat, while also writing "3-A via hax/reality warping unusable for practical combat purposes"?
I think this is reasonable. "At most 3-A through Hax / Reality Warping"
 
@Ant

Well, as I mentioned before, Jubileus sat at the very apex of a cataclysmic event that split reality in three, indicating a similar level of durability to AP.

Bayonetta demonstrates the ability to physically harm Jubileus when amped by the Right Eye (Indicating that the Eyes amp both AP and durability), while Jubileus can damage Bayonetta in return, implying that she can use the power the upgrades give in combat.

Add on Aesir being powered by both Eyes, and yeah.
 
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