Metal Gear Solid: Scaling

Consider the following

AP Scaling

Raiden, after a heavy fight, with one arm missing is capable of stopping Outer Heave

4 Gekkos working together are able to completely restrain Raide (this is actually referenced by the calc linked in raidens' profile) in his best condition. Analyzing the fight, we can see that while Raiden outclasses the Gekkos 1v1 and is able to overpower them, he is however, unable to damage them enough to the point they would explode, comparatively a damaged Rex that has been abandoned for almost a decade just by walking, is able to damage Gekko's so much they explode from the damage recieved, and with actual weaponry they just get completely fodderized.

With this in consideration it is fair to say that at the very least A damaged REX = Healthy Raiden (MGS4) and that his even his most casual movements are at least 1/4th of Raiden's physical might.

with that in mind Gray Fox is perfectly able to hold back the steps from a Metal Gear Rex in prime conditio

In short, the likes of Gray Fox and Metal Gear REX should be scale to a certain extent, if not scale outright to Raiden's feat during the events of MGS4.


EDIT: While we are on the topic I decided to also include some revisions about speed - 20/01/2019

Speed Scaling

-Liquid piloting REX was able to defeat Gray Fox, this alone warrants it having the same level of speed in combat.

-According to a codec call in MGS1 Rex can launch warheads with its railgun at 100 km/s that means his attack speed with the railgun should be Massively Hypersonic.

-With that in mind, Metal gear solid database states that the railgun Used by Crying wolf and Snake is a miniature version of that, and is noted to have a kinetic energy of 10 Megajoules. Considering the fact REX can launch nuclear warheads likely weighing in excess of hundreds of KGs at speeds 100 km/s, these railguns should be capable of launching smaller projectiles at similar speeds. In short, railguns in MG are at least 100 km/s in muzzle velocity, this affects this calculation here bumping the speed to ~20 to 50x times of what was originally calculated.

So Metal Gear Rex & Gray Fox would be "At least 8-B"? I can get behind that.

bump.

bump, again

I can get behind that.

Theglassman12 said:

I can get behind that.

Click to expand...

Seconded this.

MGS4 Raiden wrestling with 4 Gekko's with ease is where the calc came from, him being unable to damage Gekkos was considered PIS and/or game mechanics iirc. So I'm unsure about Gekko's being 8-B individually. Also, vehicle scaling in general is a bit more iffy than character scaling; not saying it's impossible, just saying there's different details to consider. Not sure about REX, but I will mention the next part.

Raiden was much weaker back in MGS2 than he was in 4, and was evenly matched with Solid Snake back then. Snake can also go toe to toe with Gray Fox; which MGS4 portrays Raiden as being much stronger than Snake. The speed upgrades look legit though. And furthermore, the 8-B durability calc still needs evaluation, but could lead to just about all of them being 8-B for sure.

I'll wait for more input though; Dark649 and Matt probably know more.

Doesn't Raiden's 8-B rating actually come from halting the movement of Outer Haven in a near-death state?

RebubleUselet said:

Doesn't Raiden's 8-B rating actually come from halting the movement of Outer Haven in a near-death state?

Click to expand...

Yes

Wrestling the4 is a lifting strength feat

Oh yeah it was, my bad; paying too much attention to old Vs threads. Where some other users sometimes spread misinformation. And actually, Gekkos would still be at least Large Building level+ looking at the same blog which Rex should be much higher and still in the 8-B spectrum. But still unsure Fox or Snake scaling.

But sounds reasonable for everyone to have High Hypersonic combat speed.

My point is that Raiden should be "At least 8-B" with that alone in mind.

DarkDragonMedeus said:

Oh yeah it was, my bad; paying too much attention to old Vs threads. Where some other users sometimes spread misinformation. And actually, Gekkos would still be at least Large Building level+

Click to expand...

Gray Fox being 1/4th of an extremely weakened Raiden (given the fact we know REX's stomps should be on that level) doesn't sound like much of a stretch imo, but lets see what others think.

Although I think it is reasonable to wait and evaluate more feats to say for sure everyone else scales.

I already made a request about evaluating two feats in order to upgrade the characters and the scaling i propose is 8-B to at least 8-B with Hypersonic+ speed and High Hypersonic combat speed for most characters.

The thing about the Gekkos restraining Raiden is that's not only a matter of strength- but of how Raiden can apply it. Having four people pulling on a single chain holding you back isn't the same as four people pulling on four different chains to hold you still.

Because of his binding- Raiden cannot throw around his weight properly. Once said bindings let him free enough to properly utilize his weight and strength to take them down- he did so in a manner that certainly indicates adding more shouldn't have been very difficult.

Also I disagree in general with reverse-scaling feats to events earlier in a story, much less entire games set decades before said feat existed. Raiden stopping Outer Haven visibly took far more effort than he was giving off against the Gekkos and even Vamp, arm missing or not.

Volgin lightning is 8-B, so the reverse scaling is not a problem and he punched through the Shagohod, MGS4 Raiden gets the at least.

Friendlysociopath wrote:

The thing about the Gekkos restraining Raiden is that's not only a matter of strength- but of how Raiden can apply it. Having four people pulling on a single chain holding you back isn't the same as four people pulling on four different chains to hold you still.

Raiden stopping Outer Haven visibly took far more effort than he was giving off against the Gekkos and even Vamp, arm missing or not.

The Gekkos restrained each one of his limbs in a position where it would have been easy for him to just do a pushing motion to shake them off, but he couldn't, even with the logic you present you cannot restrain someone with such strength without having comparable strength yourself. Also doesn't adress the fact that raiden needs intricate tactics and strikes to take out Gekkos Whereas REX just fodderizes them with something as casual as walking.

And what does effort have to do with anything? You do realize that the level of effort he has to put into something is reliant on his condition? So of course pushing outer heaven took far more effort, he was throroughly injured by vamp and was missing a limb at that point.

The Gekkos restrained each one of his limbs in a position where it would have been easy for him to just do a pushing motion to shake them off, but he couldn't

You mean wrapped the wires multiple times around each limb? You're just going to "push" in what direction exactly to shake them off? Raiden cannot apply anywhere near the full strength of his body to any particular Gekko so saying all four scale to 1/4th of him is unfounded. Try and lift a weight while sitting and only using your leg or, better yet, lie flat on your stomache and lift something with one arm. You need the whole body available to use your full strength and Raiden very clearly when restrained didn't have such access.

This becomes especially obvious once the moment he's free he grandstands the crap out of them in about as impractical a manner as you possibly could using a human body.

We also know full and well Raiden wasn't using his full strength because later in the same fight we see his suit augment itself farther in order to give him more power. Swells up when the lone Gekko harpoons him and he yanks the thing over.

So what do we know? We know Raiden was not in a position to use his full strength against them and we also know Raiden had the potential to be stronger than he was when they captured him. Both of these make scaling the Gekkos to any of Raiden's feats implausible- let alone one that's orders of magnitude greater than what he had when he fought them.

You mean wrapped the wires multiple times around each limb? You're just going to "push" in what direction exactly to shake them off?

Multiple wires being wrapped around a single limb don't enhance the strength they're exherting over him, only their grip.

Push to the front like when you do chest extensions, I don't need to do your experiment because Raiden was standing up when he was being restrained, meaning he had far more leavarege than one would when laying flat on the floor.

We also know full and well Raiden wasn't using his full strength because later in the same fight we see his suit augment itself farther in order to give him more power. Swells up when the lone Gekko harpoons him and he yanks the thing over.

Nope, he was using his full strength through the entire fight unless you're going to argue he let himself put into that position on purpose, and the example you brought up was vs a Gekko whose leg he had just cut off and still had to put visible effort (muscles swelling) into overpowering.

Your argument boils down to Raiden being in a poor position to exhert his strength in one particular scene, except if he was so vastly superior to the gekkos he wouldn't have gotten trapped by them in the first place.

Your argument about being in a poor position to exhert his strength also holds true for the Outer Haven feat by the way, Raiden is standing on top of a slab of loose concrete with one arm missing and trying to push against something with his feet sliding from the ground because they don't provide the friction necessary to keep him in place. Realistically the feat is physically impossible, so clearly writers don't care about realistic positioning for feats to happen and I see no reason for us to do the same.

Also you don't adress the fact that Raiden still required actual strikes and copeira moves coupled with his H.F. blade to incapacitate Gekkos one or two at a time while REX does so to an overall greater number just by doing something as simple as walking.

I suppose Aquila makes sense now, I agree with the upgrades; especially if the 8-B lightning calc gets evaluated and accepted.

Push to the front like when you do chest extensions, I don't need to do your experiment because Raiden was standing up when he was being restrained, meaning he had far more leavarege than one would when laying flat on the floor.


Both legs were also bound and pulled so no, he did not have full leverage because he couldn't control his legs either.


Nope, he was using his full strength through the entire fight unless you're going to argue he let himself put into that position on purpose, and the example you brought up was vs a Gekko whose leg he had just cut off and still had to put visible effort (muscles swelling) into overpowering.


Frankly, given the line about not fearing death, him putting himself into the position just to get a lot of attention including Vamp makes sense.

But otherwise no, we have visual evidence that Raiden could be stronger than he was when bound, which means you simply don't get to scale the Gekkos to his highest strength when you cannot prove he was using that same level of strength.


Also you don't adress the fact that Raiden still required actual strikes and copeira moves coupled with his H.F. blade to incapacitate Gekkos one or two at a time while REX does so to an overall greater number just by doing something as simple as walking.


Because Rex is like 20x the size of the Gekkos in that clip? Of course it can crush them under its feet- Gekkos aren't somehow immune to being crushed.

Raiden had an entire game where he ran around with a H.F. blade slashing everyone and everything to pieces so clearly him using a blade doesn't have to mean his opponents are anywhere near his level of power.

Also you can stop with that "as simple as walking" bit because the clip only ever showed Rex destroying those by charging forwards and hitting them. They sometimes took a delay to explode but at no point does Rex clearly just walk forwards and cause them to explode.

Raiden using his sword doesn't automatically mean he could have defeated his opponents with just his bare hands. That bit is true, however, it did legit struggle against 4 Gekko even if somewhat where as REX stomped them harder than Raiden did. Alternatively, as mentioned above, Snake and Gray Fox might get upgraded to 8-B anyway scaling from Volgin's lightning.

Both legs were also bound and pulled so no, he did not have full leverage because he couldn't control his legs either.

He was standing on solid ground in a position where it's completely feasible for him to move his arms and torso, yet was completely inmobilized. He was also in a position where he could have attempted to pull down the gekkos grabbing to his arms, his legs being bound is utterly irrelevant since the most basic pulling excersises only require upper body strength.

Again this argument about him being in a poor position to exhert his strength is silly because he was in an even worse position and condition to do that when he halted outer haven.


Frankly, given the line about not fearing death, him putting himself into the position just to get a lot of attention including Vamp makes sense.

Extremely unlikely given he explicitly stated he came to protect snake "this time".Tell me how does getting caught by Gekkos and having to be saved by Snake achieve that? not at all, not to mention one needs to make a lot of assumptions for your interpretation to make logical sense, whereas the idea that gekkos eventually overwhelmed him and put him into that position only requires one to take the scene at face value.

we have visual evidence that Raiden could be stronger than he was when bound, which means you simply don't get to scale the Gekkos to his highest strength when you cannot prove he was using that same level of strength.

The scene you cite as evidence for your claims doesn't even support your own argument, raiden had to tense his muscles and move his entire body to overpower a gekko with a missing leg, if anything this ultimately proves that he has to put actual effort into beating them.

Because Rex is like 20x the size of the Gekkos in that clip? Of course it can crush them under its feet- Gekkos aren't somehow immune to being crushed.

Yes he is and he can, what's the problem with this exactly?

Raiden had an entire game where he ran around with a H.F. blade slashing everyone and everything to pieces so clearly him using a blade doesn't have to mean his opponents are anywhere near his level of power.

We are talking about Raiden's performance vs the Gekko's and comparing it to REX's own, it's very clear that while Raiden is overrall superior to them he isn't at the level where he can incapacitate them without putting any thought into it like REX. He utilizes his H.F blade and precise strikes to take them out as opposed to just one-shotting with normal basic movements

Also you can stop with that "as simple as walking" bit because the clip only ever showed Rex destroying those by charging forwards and hitting them. They sometimes took a delay to explode but at no point does Rex clearly just walk forwards and cause them to explode.

My bad, I assumed the clip I linked showcased what I've been saying because it is something anyone can do during that section of the game. This clip better showcases what I intended to show.

They only ever explode after they've been damaged by REX though, so there is a clear correlation. and evidently whatever damage REX does to their mainframe is indeed greater than Raiden's if the latters attacks don't cause them to explode as a result.

Eh, I didn't make the thread with that calc in mind, imo it's probably better to just rate REX to be at least 8-B along with Raiden and bump Gray Fox and the like to High 8-C by virtue of REX stomps being > Gekkos, barring the calc getting accepted of course.

Another thing to consider is that in order to beat REX in MGS1 Snake had to destroy its radome so its cockpit would be exposed, so basically Liquid in the second half of the fight would have endured several stinger missiles to the face and also this explosio which seemingly covered the entire hangar they were fighting in.

I agree with the upgrades.

Extremely unlikely given he explicitly stated he came to protect snake "this time".Tell me how does getting caught by Gekkos and having to be saved by Snake achieve that? not at all, not to mention one needs to make a lot of assumptions for your interpretation to make logical sense, whereas the idea that gekkos eventually overwhelmed him and put him into that position only requires one to take the scene at face value.


Because he's drawing attention to himself instead of the helicopter and the people in it? Something that can easily be taken down with modern weapons and especially running and jumping cows that have heavy machine guns attached as a matter of principle? And to boot he appears to suffer no long-term injury from being repeatedly stabbed by both Gekkos and Vamp?


The scene you cite as evidence for your claims doesn't even support your own argument,raiden had to tense his muscles and move his entire body to overpower a gekko with a missing leg, if anything this ultimately proves that he has to put actual effort into beating them.


Given that my argument is, "You cannot prove Raiden used the same strength against them that he used against Outer Haven because he can change how much strength he has" no, my argument is quite supported. Also him having to pump up to best one when previously he threw two around easily would mean his strength in relation to the Gekkos is not consistantly portrayed.


We are talking about Raiden's performance vs the Gekko's and comparing it to REX's own, it's very clear that while Raiden is overrall superior to them he isn't at the level where he can incapacitate them without putting any thought into it like REX. He utilizes his H.F blade and precise strikes to take them out as opposed to just one-shotting with normal basic movements


First of all, REX does not think and won't portray effort because it's a machine. And as I pointed out Raiden will proceed to do this all through Revengeance too- a game entirely based around him being stronger and faster than almost everything he comes across. Him showing effort does not mean the thing he's fighting is anywhere near his level- he's quite lovably inconsistent like that.

REX is quite capable of stepping on Gekkos to kill them because he's so much larger. No special strength is needed and that's an assumption to say so. Particularly when regular guns work against Gekkos so there's only so superior they can be to modern weapons of war- which REX would also be able to destroy just by stepping on them.


My bad, I assumed the clip I linked showcased what I've been saying because it is something anyone can do during that section of the game. This clip better showcases what I intended to show.

They only ever explode after they've been damaged by REX though, so there is a clear correlation. and evidently whatever damage REX does to their mainframe is indeed greater than Raiden's if the latters attacks don't cause them to explode as a result.


In neither of your clips did I see explicit proof REX causes them to explode just by walking around. First-person prevents any view of what's going on.

Also the damage does not need to be greater at all- merely in an area prone to explode such as fuel cells or ammunition storage. Crushing a Gekko would be far more likely to achieve this result. Raiden stabbing at whatever brain the things have obviously will not make them explode while REX crushing live ammunition (prone to exploding) or fuel cells (prone to exploding as well) via just being massive is quite possible without having to jump through a bunch of strength hoops.


In addition to all of this- we've seen the Gekkos in combat plenty of times over the series- never do they come close to replicating the Outer Haven feat. They are, in fact, portrayed as pretty much exactly what they are; walking tanks with legs. They'll kick a car to move it or knock over a truck- not send them flying through the air. Interestingly- this is exactly what Hideo Kojima referred to them as, a jeep or tank, not a Metal Gear.

Because he's drawing attention to himself instead of the helicopter and the people in it? Something that can easily be taken down with modern weapons and especially running and jumping cows that have heavy machine guns attached as a matter of principle? And to boot he appears to suffer no long-term injury from being repeatedly stabbed by both Gekkos and Vamp?

You have zero evidence that he intended to get caught, you draw this conclusion from your theory that he would rather attempt to get the attention of the Gekkos by getting caught instead of just killing them off which is far more effective and simplistic than leaving open the possibility of actually getting killed by Vamp other Gekkos attacking the chopper while he is unable to do anything

He got overwhelmed and got caught, it's far more simplistic and takes less assumptions than the contrived scenario you're trying to push.

Immidieatly after he stopped fighting he started puking out blood and having convulsions because of the injuries he recieved during that fight (and was incapacitated for the remaining half of the game to boot), not to mention Vamp could've very easily just stabbed his brain and finished him when he was unable to move, you need some serious headcanon to assume Raiden would be dumb enough to put himself in such a vulnerable position on purpose by holding back, when he fully intended to help Snake and the others.

Given that my argument is, "You cannot prove Raiden used the same strength against them that he used against Outer Haven because he can change how much strength he has" no, my argument is quite supported. Also him having to pump up to best one when previously he threw two around easily would mean his strength in relation to the Gekkos is not consistantly portrayed.

That scene doesn't support the idea that Raiden can vary the strength he has though, so really all you did was provide another scene that shows Raiden requiring substantial effort to overpower a Gekko, we don't deem something inconsistent based from one or two scenes, we infer what's consistent based on the sum of them, and him needing to use his weapons, needing to use intricate maneuvers and precise strikes, getting caught to the point of being completely helpless and finally having to exhert considerable effort into pulling down a single Gekko demostrate he is not at the level where he can kill the gekkos casually with brute force.

First of all, REX does not think and won't portray effort because it's a machine.

Semantics, it's clear what I mean when say REX can do something effortlessly- it doesn't require Snake to command it to use any special attack or use some of his weaponry or other things explictly aimed towards causing destruction, just the extremely basic function of moving is enough to kill the Gekkos.

And as I pointed out Raiden will proceed to do this all through Revengeance too- a game ntirely based around him being stronger and faster than almost everything he comes across. Him showing effort does not mean the thing he's fighting is anywhere near his level- he's quite lovably inconsistent like that.

If you're talking about average enemies he encounters in-game, they don't have enough screentime of them fighting Raiden for us the reliably infer what their abilities, or the level of difficulty Raiden had taking them out. Comparatively he has enough scenes vs the Gekkos in MGS4 for us to rate his performance and judge where they stand relative to one another.

If for example, one character in that game were to finish a RAY with a single blow you can bet he'd be rated higher than Raiden was at the time because despite overpowering it, he never showed enough strength to one-shot it.


REX is quite capable of stepping on Gekkos to kill them because he's so much larger. No special strength is needed and that's an assumption to say so.

He can destroy stuff he gets the AP attributted to him, that's the standard on the wiki. Being large doesn't diminish your feats, and in fact being large is often reason enough for one to assign a tier.

Particularly when regular guns work against Gekkos so there's only so superior they can be to modern weapons of war- which REX would also be able to destroy just by stepping on them.

Normal weapons are only effective against the Gekkos when they're aimed at their weak spots though (barring heavier ones like the 50 BMG and missiles), and those guns are used to incapacitate Vamp who nearly killed Raiden on two separate occasions, and yes, this is considered a valid showing for those weapons which is the reason Snake and everyone else has a 8-B key to begin with.

In neither of your clips did I see explicit proof REX causes them to explode just by walking around. First-person prevents any view of what's going on.

It's very easy to infer from the clip I provided he is simply walking towards the Gekkos, and they get knocked forward and then explode as a result. if you ever played the game you should know this is a very easy thing to replicate. You can complain of my inability to find videos portraying it so clearly that one doesn't need to put any effort into analyzing what's going on, though.

Also the damage does not need to be greater at all- merely in an area prone to explode such as fuel cells or ammunition storage. Crushing a Gekko would be far more likely to achieve this result. Raiden stabbing at whatever brain the things have obviously will not make them explode while REX crushing live ammunition (prone to exploding) or fuel cells (prone to exploding as well) via just being massive is quite possible without having to jump through a bunch of strength hoops.

We've already seen what happens when their missile launchers get blown up it doesn't do substantial damage to their main frame, if their fuel cells were that volatile they would have exploded after Raiden smashed their entire frame against a wall after spending a long time building momentum, which didn't happe.

REX technically doesn't actually crush them, in effect he is just kicking them out of the way, and if he did that it would undoubtedly make him stronger than Raiden since the latter wasn't shown to even put a dent on the Gekko's armor.

In addition to all of this- we've seen the Gekkos in combat plenty of times over the series- never do they come close to replicating the Outer Haven feat.

Krillin has zero planet level feats of his own and yet he is rated at that level, powerscaling is a thing.

They are, in fact, portrayed as pretty much exactly what they are; walking tanks with legs. They'll kick a car to move it or knock over a truck- not send them flying through the air. Interestingly- this is exactly what Hideo Kojima referred to them as, a jeep or tank, not a Metal Gear.

Mundane objects in fiction are often portrayed to be far stronger than they can realistically can be, so Gekko's being likened to tanks is irrelevant.

You have zero evidence that he intended to get caught


Don't put words in my mouth. I said he was drawing attention, not intending to get caught and not intending to let Vamp repeatedly stab him in the chest during a fight to the death. It takes no headcanon to realize tanks that can run and jump and are all outfitted with heavy machineguns (which they can use to kill one another because they're NOT any different than normal military vehicles) would be quite good at taking down the relatively slow-moving chopper.


That scene doesn't support the idea that Raiden can vary the strength he has though, so really all you did was provide another scene that shows Raiden requiring substantial effort to overpower a Gekko, we don't deem something inconsistent based from one or two scenes, we infer what's consistent based on the sum of them, and him needing to use his weapons, needing to use intricate maneuvers and precise strikes, getting caught to the point of being completely helpless and finally having to exhert considerable effort into pulling down a single Gekko demostrate he is not at the level where he can kill the gekkos casually with brute force.


It very literally shows him bulk up and change his strength so yes, it does support that. You don't get to write off anything that contradicts your conclusion. You make a conclusion based on all the data, you don't make a conclusion and then toss out whatever data doesn't support it.

Also you're franking pulling a great deal of needless language out on your part to try and sell this scaling, "intricate maneuvers" indeed. Raiden does the same exact thing in Revengeance despite the base cyborgs standing no change at him at all. This isn't proof of anything unless it also proves each and every mook in Revengeance is at Raiden's level. Hell there's a QTE where he visibly struggles against one Gekko in Revegeance- are they so upgraded that even his advanced body cannot easily defeat them? Or does Raiden just show effort for everything? Seems like the latter given that every other feat we've seen for the Gekkos is multiple orders of magnitude weaker than 1/4th of stopping Outer Haven.

And how's this for incosistancy? REX can destroy the things just by stepping on them and instead of this being a clear example of the Gekkos being like normal military vehicles that would also be destroyed when REX steps on them, you're instead going to employ circular logic and insist REX is as strong as Raiden in order to back up why it could destroy Gekkos easily instead of the more obvious and less-assumption-filled version of them NOT being in any way comparable to Raiden.


Semantics, it's clear what I mean when say REX can do something effortlessly- it doesn't require Snake to command it to use any special attack or use some of his weaponry or other things explictly aimed towards causing destruction, just the extremely basic function of moving is enough to kill the Gekkos.


Again with the needless langauge. Everything everyone does takes 'some' effort. REX is also a machine- unless it literally has a button that says, "Go faster" it will use the exact same effort to do anything. Not that the clips show any such thing so far as I can tell.


He can destroy stuff he gets the AP attributted to him, that's the standard on the wiki. Being large doesn't diminish your feats, and in fact being large is often reason enough for one to assign a tier.


The standard on the wiki is apparently to change literally everything about a verse to fit scaling. Nothing is ever so weak X works on it, everyone always scales upwards. The Gekkos aren't as weak as normal tanks, they're super strong and the thing that happens to step on them and destroy them just like it would a tank is also super stronger than its size suggests. Even when neither the Gekkos nor REX ever have shown a feat remotely close to the feat they're being scaled to.


Krillin has zero planet level feats of his own and yet he is rated at that level, powerscaling is a thing.


When done well powerscaling can be useful. When you reverse-scale an entire verse to fit one feat instead of just acknowledging it might not be consistent- it's not useful.


Mundane objects in fiction are often portrayed to be far stronger than they can realistically can be, so Gekko's being likened to tanks is irrelevant.


Ah yes the, "Everything that does not support my scaling or calls it into question is irrelevant" defense.

You're not in any way trying to make a conclusion from the data, you are very literally dismissing anything that contradicts the conclusion that you started the thread with and any inconsistancies this raises are instead changed to fit the conclusion instead of being used as evidence against it. How very Vsbattles of you. Nothing is ever so weak that something else works on it- everything always scales up regardless of how few showings they have on the level of the original scaled feat.


If ever I needed a thread to sum up why putting myself on that Knowledgeable Member List was a mistake, this is it. Knowledge of a verse doesn't mean anything if both sides aren't going to use the knowledge the same way.

What the heck is even going on here?

There is a debate with Raiden and the Gekkos, which is pointless since Volgin electricity is 8-B and him punching through the Shagohod, which can take High 8-C attacks with ease should lead to an upgrade, but we have to wait for the evaluations.

Don't put words in my mouth. I said he was drawing attentio

That's exactly what you're implying by replying to that string of comments though, or did you think "that position" meant anything but the scene where he was caught by gekkos?

It takes no headcanon to realize tanks that can run and jump and are all outfitted...

What does this have to do with Raiden getting caught though?

It very literally shows him bulk up and change his strength so yes, it does support that.

It doesn't prove ANYTHING but the fact he tenses his muscles when doing stuff, you're grasping at straws by interpreting that scene as his strength being inconsistently portrayed.

I get to dismiss all of your talking points when they have no ground to stand on, Raiden having no leverage to exhert his force after being caught has no merit because the Outer Haven feat was performed with even worse leverage, Your theory of him having held back against the Gekkos is pure headcanon and goes against the context of the fight and his explicitly stated motivations, and "they're intended to be simple tanks" is not going to fly til the day we decide to downgrade every peak human in fiction to 10-A because that's how they're intended to be portrayed as.

Also you're franking pulling a great deal of needless language

Pretty much "I don't like the words you use".

"intricate maneuvers" indeed. Raiden does the same exact thing in Revengeance despite the base cyborgs standing no change at him at all. This isn't proof of anything unless it also proves each and every mook in Revengeance is at Raiden's level. Hell there's a QTE where he visibly struggles against one Gekko in Revegeance- are they so upgraded that even his advanced body cannot easily defeat them?

Are you under the impression the average mook would be that far from Raiden's level in that game when they're perfectly able to kill you during gameplay?. Conversely, Raiden needs to chip away their armor before he can even slash them properly with blade mode, and this fact is alluded to in multiple codec convos vs many types of opponents.

That's not even the point though, the fact Raiden needs to do so many unnecessary moves will put him a tier below anyone who could just walk up to the enemies he wastes so much time fighting and one-shot them with blunt force instead of having to jump all over the place aiming at their weakspots. Raiden's ripper mode is rated several times above his normal level exactly because it can one-shot opponents he would normally take several blows to defeat.

REX can destroy the things just by stepping on them and instead of this being a clear example of the Gekkos being like normal military vehicles

REX being able to insta-kill Gekkos is simple proof of his ability to do so, nothing more.

why it could destroy Gekkos easily instead of the more obvious and less-assumption-filled version of them NOT being in any way comparable to Raiden. I'm not making assumptions though, it's clear as day Raiden struggled vs 4 gekkos and REX casually destroys just as many if not more on them just by moving.

Raiden serving backup means nothing since, at best, he is just cleaning up what little amount of Gekkos REX left in its path, nevermind that we actually don't see him doing anything in that scene.

Again with the needless langauge. "I don't like the words you use 2"

Everything everyone does takes 'some' effort. REX is also a machine- unless it literally has a button that says, "Go faster"

You were noting earlier that REX could dash, he can kill them with simple steps and without using any of his weapons, or any of the techniques that actually involves him using its full weight like he does against RAY. It's not rocket science to figure that REX destroying Gekkos is a casual feat.

it will use the exact same effort to do anything. Not that the clips show any such thing so far as I can tell.

I provided the video and reasoning, if you can't see it that's too bad, the thread being resolved doesn't hinge on you alone being able to piece it together or agreeing with it.

The standard on the wiki is apparently to change literally everything about a verse to fit scaling...

You aren't adressing the point of REX' size in any way influencing how his AP would be rated. This rant is out of place.

Ah yes the, "Everything that does not support my scaling or calls it into question is irrelevant" defense.

It is irrelevant what their intended role in a setting where superhuman feats are the norm, we don't have Batman or Cap at 10-A just because they're supposed to just be "peak human", I'm not going to adress this again.

You're not in any way trying to make a conclusion from the data, you are very literally dismissing anything that contradicts the conclusion that you started the thread with and any inconsistancies this raises are instead changed to fit the conclusion instead of being used as evidence against it.

You haven't brought up anything that would decisively make the showings unreliable though.

If ever I needed a thread to sum up why putting myself on that Knowledgeable Member List was a mistake, this is it. Knowledge of a verse doesn't mean anything if both sides aren't going to use the knowledge the same way.

No one is forced to take anyone's interpretations of events as gospel just because they put themselves on that list.

Dark/DDM seem to agree to wait until someone evaluates calcs regarding AP.

As far as speed goes, no one has any complaints about the changes so far, we just need a calc group member to upgrade the calc mentioned in the opening post with the 100km/s of the railgun.

Spoke too soon, Volgin's lightning calc was just accepted. So it seems the upgrades are all fair game.

So all we need is a calc for the railgun dodge and then this can be completed?

There is also this.

Btw, the railgun calc is pretty easy to do, since Xcano already did all the hard math. I got around mach 30 pluging the new numbers in the calculator.

Hypersonic+ with High Hypersonic combat and reactions speed would be fine for them.

Speed also seems legit.

So, can someone apply the changes? I would do it myself, but editing on mobile is a pain.

And I got to go to work soon, and but could afterwards.

I have updated the tiers, but there may need to be a new blog with the updated information about those railguns being 100 km/s or 100000 m/s before High Hypersonic can be applied. Unless there already is a another calc that exceeds Mach 25. Hypersonic+ is legit for now though.