Transdualism

Well, gonna be honest with you:

Since I did this thread I was wondering...

Are there levels of Transduality?

The whole Taikyoku, book shelves in Umineko (from the Witch Senate), Lovecraft's Gates and even Lucifer Morningstar are transdual and yet there are characters "more" trasdual than others

I don't think that's accurate because the whole being "more" transdual is a duality: more and less. For me it's "you are transdual or you're not". But that's what I think... and I want to read other points of view.

For me Transduality/Nonduality is just like a power that allow you to have few powers of 1-A without being 1-A, at the end 1-A transcend everything; although, transdual means that you have power above dual system, something that 1-A do not have by default. But I actually ignore anything involving Tier 1, so I may be wrong.

The thing is that a lot of people think about the fact of transduality has levels. Levels? We are talking about something that doesn't has lows or highs, since those two are dualistic. But like I said before... I want to talk about this. For me past transduality (past? really?) just the AP, durability or, maybe, intelligence has relevance in that matters.

Yeah, I guess is true, you either transcend or you don't; but I guess people use Masadaverse as reference and is the one that used that nonsense like levels of transcendence.

CM uses the same.

If we consider the things about the incompressibility beyond the doors we can say that the Outer Gods or whatever resides below that, are not Omniscient and that applies to the intellect. Transduality? Yes, they are. More transdual passed the door? Transdual transdualism? Emmmmmmm... certainly Lovecraft consumed a lot of moldy bread.

As i already explained in the last thread, no one stated that there is a different degree of TRANSDUALISM, and using Trancendence and Transdualism interchangeable is wrong.

You are correct in that there is no varying degree of trandualism, you are either beyond duality or not. This has absolutly no bearing on how high you are on the hierachical ladder of your verse though.

And even being transdual dosnt mean that any motion/concept stops applying to them in a sense. Transdual beings still do things (Causality), exist (existence/nonexistence), have sentience (Mind/Mindless) and abid to higher concepts (Taikyoku, the Ladder of Witches, the Gates). The Dual concepts they are trancending are part of the lower reality, where Dimensions still govern, where concepts still exist as a rule of reality and where youre either are or not. Like the page you linked explains, being transdual is being above the system of your reality. Point is, Outerversal, transdual beings still do things, but those things are beyond the mere descriptive capacity of beings lower than them. WE, as users, can still categorize actions of Outerversal beings as Causality, witch is paradoxical to our transdualism page, but its not. Its taking into account that that the Outerverse of a verse > The reality of a verse. Outerversal beings can still damage and kill each other, its still something a lower, bound by reality being can perceive, as much as they cant perceive the actual beings and the actual realm/structure.

What is exactly my point? Im explaining how concepts that WE can perceive does not invalid the transdual status of a being, that is important because i will now explain what trancending into higher level means.

You raised a good point in that transdual beings should not be able to be higher or lower, because thats a dual concepts. I already explained why its possible, but just to be sure that everything connects. Yes, higher/lower is a transdual concept. But not when it comes to Outerversal structures and realms. Everything that exist in in such levels is self containet and has no to little concerns of the lower reality. We can categorize "attack" even though it would correspond to a concept, but connecting it with the concept of "attacking" in context of the verse is wrong.

I make a small analogy based on Uminekos author-lower reality system: In Umineko, even normal Humans can create lower realitys through Fiction. A author can decide how big the cosmology is, what concepts govern there and how grand and strong his characters can become. But hes (the author) is still unconcerned by the concepts below him. Now imagine that fictional verse to be real, its a reality below us. The concepts there are as real as here, but they have no bearing on the author, because they are lower. Now make the connection to the Outerverse in relation to the verse, minus the whole creating thing.

Tlr Transduality is not that grand in the actual verse and concepts in Outerverse=/=concepts in the verse. They only "true" utterly trandual beings would be our current T0 with our currently used T0 description, witch is gone soon. As they are, in most cases the source of all of reality, including outerverse in of the verse and dont abid any concepts whatsoeve, to the point where even we cant describe it. In theory at least, because Omnipotence paradox.

If there are still question regarding trancendence then hit me or users who are more knowledgeable than me in those topics, Such as Sera, Azathoth, DarkLK, Matthew and any other Staffmember that worked majorly on an Outerversal verse up. Just do me a favor and differentiate between Transdualism and Trancendence please. Thats the only thing i ask for this post...

@First Witch: thank you; danke ("thanks" in german); merci; hvala van ("thank you" in croatian); gracias

That approach of things are really constructive and you are right: I need to stop using "trascendence" and "transdualism" as synonynms. About the power level of things... That's something that is important in the thread that it belongs. Right here wouldn't be plausible to talk about how powerful is an entity in the outerverse.

And you gave me so much insight towards a matter that I found hard to explain.

"Being" transdual;

1. Completely beyond dimensional and binary conception of truths.

2. Self-existential, you are of self-origin. Though the ones who truly qualify for such are boundless. You cannot be hurt by mere power. Transcendence is not relevant.

Also, Transdualism is not a concept, because you are not describing something within the realms of comprehension.

First Witch said:

You are correct in that there is no varying degree of trandualism, you are either beyond duality or not. This has absolutly no bearing on how high you are on the hierachical ladder of your verse though.

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Be (1) or not to be (2)?

Being either transdual or not, or being beyond duality or not, is in itself dualism. A dualistic affirmation adjoined to something that should, by its very definition, transcend it.

This is absolute nonsense.

You gave your point of view. Now I don't pretend that you post a reply with eight paragraphs but there are things from your opinions I found interesting. To call something nonsense one must have arguments and I want to know yours.

BleedingPeach said:

You gave your point of view. Now I don't pretend that you post a reply with eight paragraphs but there are things from your opinions I found interesting. To call something nonsense one must have arguments and I want to know yours.

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Who are you talking to? / What are you talking about?

TonySansNom said:

Who are you talking to? / What are you talking about?

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You and the stuff that you think, I always found interesting an opinion when the same has good arguments.

TonySansNom said:

Be (1) or not to be (2)?

Being either transdual or not, or being beyond duality or not, is in itself dualism. A dualistic affirmation adjoined to something that should, by its very definition, transcend it.

This is absolute nonsense.

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Honest question, did you actually read everything i wrote? Because i already indirectly adressed that. And while i woudnt take offense to it, saying whats actually nonsensical (my explanation or transdualism?) is more helpful.

The problem here is that youre applying our concept of Transdualism onto fiction, treating it like a second reality, instead of taking into account that it is fiction. We, as users, can naturally apply our concepts to outerversal beings. We describe we formless and abstraction of such realms without problems, despite them being, you know, formless and abstract. Heres the catch: Not for us, but for the reality inside that fictional story are they formless, unfathomable and abstract. For us readers, Hadou Gods clashes like normal human beings with super powers, but for the normal humans under them, its litteraly creation reshaping its form, its law through a unfathomable force they cant perceive. For us readers, its Witches writing fictional realitys, but for denizens of said reality, its like the will of the universe, fate or free will or a individuum that moves said story.

What does that have to do with Transdualism? Simply, Fiction is its own selfcontained reality. For us, its not truly transdual, because we can say they are or they are not. We can say they exist or they dont, we can say that they think or think dont think, but for the reality they trancend, the system of existence and non-existence, the system of causality, dual conception. But for the lower reality, they are exactly this, beyond their respective reality. This naturally dont apply to all Outerversal beings, not all outerversal beings are transdual. But those who are, have clear statements regarding that. Taikyoku is the source of all of reality, all its concepts, laws and forms, The Hierachy of Witches exist beyond the peak of concepts of the human domain, the Gates exist beyond reality, beyond dreams and thoughs. They still "exist", they still "do", they still "think", but only for us.

I know that my english is pretty lack luster, so if some things seems to be wrongly or weirdly worded, then ask for clarifications

BleedingPeach said:

TonySansNom said:

Who are you talking to? / What are you talking about?

Click to expand...

You and the stuff that you think, I always found interesting an opinion when the same has good arguments.

Click to expand...

This is not an "opinion", and there is no need for argument. It's just how it is. Just like there is no need to provide argument for the simple fact that we are retained on the ground, and not floating in space. There is no need for proof for such an absolute truth.

Transdualism is a term that is composed of two words with very specific meaning. And such a meaning is what the word is saying, the message that it conveys to you.

Transdualism means that is above concepts of dualism. And "being or not being" is of dualistic nature (you are, or you are not). Saying that "you can only be or not be transdual" is adjoining the opposite of this word very own definition and nature.

It contradicts the very meaning of "transdualism".

Basically, what I think is that there aren't levels of Transduality. @Witch explained to me the difference between trascendentalism and transdualism, and both are not synonyms. When I say that "you are or you are not" transdual I say that there's an absence of levels once you reach transduality.

Witch above said the interpretations in fiction not reality. Besides, in philosophy matters it's all about opinions. You think similar to me, the only thing that differentiates us is the interpretations.

First Witch
Sorry, didn't see yout answer.

I didn't see the "notes" on this power page. I just found it ridiculous we would apply to this power its exact opposite. But we can't really imagine a non dual concept so it is more a problem of humanity's limitation (assuming, transdualism is even possible in the first place and a "lack of reach/understanding" for us humans).

I know fiction likes to abuse such words. I think it's fine when for example, in a story of conflicts, Gods just "fight" when in reality they should be beyond such things. Because otherwise, we would not be able to write a story where characters do just that.

What if the being is between 1 and 0

Then wouldn't that make it dual? Being between "To Be" and "Not To Be" isn't what dualism is?

What Peach said. Its within Duality. Dont know examples from the get go, but i remember beings that could for example switch between Existence and Non Existence. But i dont know a direct example for a character who exactly exist bewteen 2 states.

@First Witch

Perhaps you should talk with DarkLK, Sera EX, and Azathoth about improving on our Transduality page?

There is no need to rewrite the page. The reason this thread was made was because a user confused Trancendence with Transduality.

Okay.

I was just thinking that there are recurrent demands to give any characters that are mentioned as transdual 1-A ratings, and clarifying that this is not always the case might be a good idea.

Quite, WoD has been accepted for Transduality.

So, now, it's down to if this makes them 1-A or not.

Ant, could you unlock the WoD pages, I was going to ask you to do this for me, but you closed the thread before I could ask.

What do you wish to change in the profiles?

Just adding Transduality to The Archmagi section, God's Power section, Caine's final key.

Which staff members accepted this?

Ultima Reality

Okay. If you write a list of the exact titles of he pages that need to be unlocked, I can handle it.

God (World of Darkness)

Caine (World of Darkness)

Mage (World of Darkness)

Udlmaster said:

Ultima Reality

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I don't wanna be that guy, but don't you need more staff members accepting that than just Ultima?

There was more people, but Ultima was a staff member who accepted it, and Ultima is very level-headed and reasonable, I believe people would agree with Ultima Reality.

Ok then.

I have unlocked the pages.