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Some Tensei Revisons

Celestial_Pegasus

Celestial_Pegasus

VS Battles
Administrator
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Gonna go over a couple of things here, namely spirits magic, and true dragons.

Spirits
So i already went over what a spirit is in my blog i made for Tensei Shitara Slime Datta Ke.

Summarizing what's there, the great spirits function like type 3 concepts, their respective elements only came to exist once they were born.

There are other spirits besides the great spirits exist, but i didn't think they scaled from them until this was brought to my attention:

"By the way, great spirits did not have ego―they were masses of energy. The Fire Spirit was just an excess fragment of the entire mass. Like a monster, this fragment gained self awareness. And this self-aware fragment of pure energy thus became a monster."

The Great Spirits are concepts, and there are fragments of them, which are the other spirits, so basically excluding the great spirits the others are fragments of concepts is what i gather.

This means Rimuru Tempest absorbed a concept when he absorbed Ifrit.

Magic
Magic is an idea projected into reality, which also allows the user to kill spiritual beings who can't be physically harmed:

U29
U30
U31
U32


Rimuru couldn't harm a devil due to them being spiritual beings so he attacked with idea of severance.

Hakurou also does the same thing:

Hakuro spirit combat


I think this gives everyone who can use magic Reality Warping, magic also allowed adventurers to be able to attack spirits like Ifrit and spirits as i said above are concepts. So everyone who can use magic should have reality warping, and the ability to kill conceptual beings.


True Dragons
True Dragon never die, they just reincarnate when killed:

True dragon reincarnation


They still reincarnate, even when their conceptual selves are destroyed:

True dragon conceptual


This means true dragons have really good reincarnation
 
Well rimru should be able to regen from conceptual erasure then.Also rimru should have concept addition with the haki thing and eos rimuru should have improved concep addition
 
The way i see it magic is reality warping and with it, you can harm conceptual beings. But i think that's about it, so reality warping, and can harm conceptual beings will be what everyone gets.

True dragons just have really good reincarnation which allows they to come back from concept erasure, spirits can't come back from that though.
 
"Concept Addition". The name is somewhat self-explanatory, but can you explain what you mean by that?
 
Will Rimuru Get That Ressurection too (Maybe Better (CIEL))? since he ate 2 of them and become one of them
 
OpMasada said:
"Concept Addition". The name is somewhat self-explanatory, but can you explain what you mean by that?
Click to expand...
the ability to inbue a concept onto something.An example will be inbuing the concept of absulote cutting into a sword to make it able to cut through anything
 
@GLHF Rimuru isn't a True Dragon in the strictest sense, so no. He is like the unofficial 5th true dragon, unofficial cause he is a psuedo dragon and not a true one.
 
@GLHF From what i remember he only has power comparable to a true dragon, he doesn't even have a dragon form.

@Setsuna Ideas aren't equal to concepts, magic is an idea projected into reality, not a concept projected into really, so i don't think concept addition applies here.
 
@CP

But Even if he is not True Dragon his has every ability that True Dragon Capable of such as Ressurection thing i guess

Then it could possibly even be called the 5th, another younger brother(?), but strictly speaking it wasn't a "True Dragon".
And if it was to be classified, it's something with the ability of a "Dragon".

The performance was……God tier.
God tier? God tier was it ~ I see……wait, Huh?!
This was what it meant to be shocked stupid.
In other words, the part of my body ――the flesh of my main body――had this kind of ridiculous defensive capability. Well, since my body was rebuilt into a "True Dragon", it was only natural I would have this kind of defensive capability.This was all the result of a successful operation.
In short this was all thanks to Wisdom Lord Raphael-san. This was really well done, truly befitting of Sensei.
 
Actually relooked on somethings, Rimuru obtained the powers and nature of a True Dragon, so resurrection for him is fine with me.

I am iffy on ideas being concepts though, ideas are concepts, but the reverse isn't true, reality warping works best here imo.
 
Celestial Pegasus said:
Actually relooked on somethings, Rimuru obtained the powers and nature of a True Dragon, so resurrection for him is fine with me.
I am iffy on ideas being concepts though, ideas are concepts, but the reverse isn't true, reality warping works best here imo.
Click to expand...
I agree with this point and the OP.
 
With the addition of manga/ln stuff to WN, this should also give beginning rimuru Magic Resist (self explanatory) and Magic Interference: "Under Magic Interference, we believe the effects of all magic are greatly reduced. What's more, the biggest difficulty lies in how it annuls any sort of flight-based magic. Try to make contact with it, and you'll lose your magic and crash to the ground. Losing the advantage of height makes it a very difficult enemy to fight."

Along with Gravity manip
 
OpMasada said:
With the addition of manga/ln stuff to WN, this should also give beginning rimuru Magic Resist (self explanatory) and Magic Interference: "Under Magic Interference, we believe the effects of all magic are greatly reduced. What's more, the biggest difficulty lies in how it annuls any sort of flight-based magic. Try to make contact with it, and you'll lose your magic and crash to the ground. Losing the advantage of height makes it a very difficult enemy to fight."
Along with Gravity manip
Click to expand...
I also agree
 
I think Rimuru's Resurrection is better than True Dragon due to Perfect Memory EX except i miss something
 
The two words are synonymous, and often times used interchangeably, under the scope of its original language at least. You can even change it with the word that'd translate into "image" in English and it'd still mean the same thing in context. Even in its Chinese translation, the word being used in that particular part have the equivalent meaning to ideas and concepts (or something along those line) anyway. It's clearly not reality warping as you'd suggest
 
The one being argued, one that's translated into "ideas" in the English scan of the manga. You can convey it as idea or concept or even image in English, but it means the same thing.
 
THOK AST THOK said:
The one being argued, one that's translated into "ideas" in the English scan of the manga. You can convey it as idea or concept or even image in English, but it means the same thing.
Click to expand...
Here making an idea into reality is Reality Warping, Making concepts is Conceptual Manipulation, perhaps the best offensive abilities in his wiki, at best but it needs a lot more proof. It is easier to believe the feat is Reality Warping.
 
He doesn't warp reality in any form. He merely attach the concept/idea/image/vision/whatever word you want to use in English of strenght, destruction, and severance in the form of an aura as a coating. This isn't anything complex, it's as simple as it gets. Don't overcomplicate it with your personal conjecture
 
THOK AST THOK said:
He doesn't warp reality in any form. He merely attach the concept/idea/image/vision/whatever word you want to use in English of strenght, destruction, and severance in the form of an aura as a coating. This isn't anything complex, it's as simple as it gets. Don't overcomplicate it with your personal conjecture
Click to expand...
Personal conjecture? Nothing personal about it seems too far.

I may have stake, but I am fair about it. It needs a lot more evidence to accpted and not rejected. I can tell because I saw similar abilities for similar evidence being downgraded or outright rejected before.

Let say it is based on ideas or concept interchangeability, then it Conceptual Manipulation (Type 3; one of the strongest hax) than characters even fodder would have it which in many cases mean what called wank.

Since the word is interchangeable, it likely results in a downgrade.

Magic that has Reality Warping isn't far-fetched and many cases in fictions exist.
 
Agree with OP but I'm skeptical on the Veldora's reincarnation part. Veldora says having their Conceptual Selves destroyed isn't the same as Death but if interpreted it could also mean that True Dragons would reincarnate even after being destroyed metaphysically as long as their ideas exist which is why death won't come to them. IDK I have not read Tensei (Yet) but seems like they aren't getting their literal concepts destroyed and reincarnated.
 
And as i've said, it's not reality warping. Hes not warping anything in any form. If he does, then he can just apply it directly unto the demon without bothering to cut it with his blade. Which is clearly not the case here.

You said this

"Here making an idea into reality is Reality Warping, Making concepts is Conceptual Manipulation, perhaps the best offensive abilities in his wiki, at best but it needs a lot more proof. It is easier to believe the feat is Reality Warping."

I'll break this down for you

"Here making an idea into reality is Reality Warping"

Which isn't the case because Rimuru isn't making anything abstract into reality.

"Making concepts is Conceptual Manipulation"

Hes not creating anything new, hes using an existing concept to coat his blade.

"perhaps the best offensive abilities in his wiki, at best but it needs a lot more proof. It is easier to believe the feat is Reality Warping."

Which is false. There's nothing that indicates that Rimuru was warping reality. Your last sentence is practically you saying we should take a wrong info over the right one because the former is easier to believe. Which is ironic considering this is an indexing wiki that should thrive to present actually accurate info based on a given works, not some make believe conclusion based on conjectures. It just come off as indecisive and unprofessional. What makes this an actual case within the story aside from Celestial Pegasus, whom you seem to agree with, claiming it as such?

You were agreeing with this point

"I am iffy on ideas being concepts though, ideas are concepts, but the reverse isn't true, reality warping works best here imo."

Aside from someone's opinion, do tell how this particular feat that happen within the story is reality warping.

This particular feat being reality warping reeks of personal conjecture.

I've already post 3 evidences in the discussion thread, of which you were there to witness it as well. Stop acting like there aren't any, you're practically being ignorant at that point. Not to mention you're also practically discredited my effort of posting those evidences in the first place by saying that.

Seems like you didn't get my point regarding the word used. My point is that arguing whether to take which word is just arguing semantic, might as well remove literally everything that has something to do with soul and spiritual lifeform as well because the word used in the original text also have the meaning of "mind" rather than "soul/spirit" and this one seem to be a recurring word that stay relevant far into the series judging by the WN info i've got on my hands. What matters is what the author was trying to convey, which was how soul plays an important part in the series and how a top tier character is just a being whose mainly spiritual (and other stuff regarding its nature). In this particular case, its how Magical Haki works by coating the blade with some concepts (or ideas, or other words with similar/equivalent meaning that correspond to the Japanese word in English. I like the word "idea" better myself) of the user's choosing. Pray tell, considering we're even arguing about this particular linguistic issue in the first place, why don't you rack your brain over "Mental Lifeform vs Spiritual Lifeform" too? Because it's literally the exact same linguistic issue with what we're having right now.

As i've said. This is nothing complex, it's as simple as it gets. No need to overcomplicate it with conjectures
 
Can't really say anything regarding Magical Haki. But i agree that it's not reality warping.

Though on the Mental Lifetorm and Spiritual Lifeform part. The TL from Asianhobbyist have a different TL in that their version use the former while Guro use the latter. This might be just an issue of differing TL and hence just arguing semantic like TAT said.
 
So, to avoid problems, use the original quotes (Japanese) for these scenes / moments, then try to translate it, in case you know of someone or someone who reads this (who are a lot I think ...) and have a good level of Japanese, they can help, so we will know better what in really tells us the information (in Manga, Light Novel and Web novel media), if one is someone who already knows about the work, much better, but always try to be objective and analytical.

Also wich translation from the media's (Manga, LN and WB) is more reliable/acurate and can uses with no problem.

My Opinion.
 
Don't think anyone is gonna be willing translate anything.

As far as i am aware the manga only has 1 group/person translating it, as for the wn guro is the most accurate.

Anyway after rethinking it, i do agree that magic isn't warping reality, just adding ideas to stuff, Rimuru added the ideas of strength, destruction and severance to his sword, hence the devil got cut. He didn't warp anything, he just cloaked his sword with ideas.
 
It is not Conceptual Manipulation, @THOK AST THOK

Non-Qualifying Concepts
Concepts that are not abstract or universal, such as those outlined in Idealism and Nominalism, do not qualify for conceptual manipulation of any kind. For a character to qualify for conceptual manipulation the character must be able to manipulate abstract and universal concepts.

Indirect manipulation of concepts, such as the universal changing of the object does not qualify as conceptual manipulation. The use of social influence or any non-supernatural power to achieve an alteration of a concept does not qualify as conceptual manipulation, as this is not a direct manipulation of the concept.
 
So we would just list it as something like "the ability to manipulate ideas" or something since it doesn't qualify? Or just say Concept Manipulation (Can manipulate non-qualifying concepts such as ideas).
 
Non qualifying concepts don't count as concept manipulation though.

Type 4 concepts are abstract, but do not govern reality, they are governed by the perception of these concept by sentient beings.

Non qualifying concepts are not abstract or universal, and do not qualify for conceptual manipulation of any kind.
 
Rimuru is not indirectly manipulation concepts also the concepts of strength,destruction and severance is definately not type 4
 
Celestial Pegasus said:
Non qualifying concepts don't count as concept manipulation though.
Type 4 concepts are abstract, but do not govern reality, they are governed by the perception of these concept by sentient beings.

Non qualifying concepts are not abstract or universal, and do not qualify for conceptual manipulation of any kind.
Click to expand...
After some research it like it would go under Information Manipulation like

Information Manipulation ( Can manipulate non-qualifying concepts such as ideas)
 
Nedge1000 said:
Celestial Pegasus said:
Non qualifying concepts don't count as concept manipulation though.
Type 4 concepts are abstract, but do not govern reality, they are governed by the perception of these concept by sentient beings.

Non qualifying concepts are not abstract or universal, and do not qualify for conceptual manipulation of any kind.
Click to expand...
After some research it like it would go under Information Manipulation like
Information Manipulation ( Can manipulate non-qualifying concepts such as ideas)
Click to expand...
Hmm... But he already have it

Is that really non-qualifying concepts or the same as Conceptual manipulation since no Types For That
 
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