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Night of the Ants (Version 2.0 or Rematch)

Which abilities can Baam use in this key?

It seems Meruem is outclassed in everything. His AP is casual 1.46 megatons but it's higher to an unquantifiable amount and Baam is more than twice powerful than casual Meruem. Baam has the versatility edge just looking at his profile.
 
If Meruem's opponent is only twice higher than his casual AP, I believe the difference shouldn't be significant. Let's not forget Meruem's "tens of kilometers" range through Nen techniques, capacity for clairvoyance and extrasensorial perception in a much finer degree than Baam's. Baam's speed is calced from the fact that Baam is far superior to Mach 836 individuals, while Meruem is superior to Mach 256.78 Pitou and increased his speed threefold, making him higher than Mach 770, so Baam does have a speed advantage, but from an initial distance of 4km it's no longer a significant advantage.

And let's not forget Meruem's greatest asset. His big trump card isn't any power or ability, or statistic. The whole reason he is an immense threat to the entire world he came to exist in is his peerless intellect. He can analyse someone's patterns with an efficiency unparalleled by any character in an anime that's all about battles where planning, adaptability and wits are everyone's main reasons for not being dead yet, where even the fodder is highly intelligent and the characters typically outsmart enemies stronger than them who scale to that level of intelligence (Yeah, powerscaling of intelligence in Hunter X Hunter is pretty much a thing given the way the verse works).

He can deal with and vastly outsmart people who are perfectly used to turning the tables on those far stronger than them. What can an enemy whose mind is not even as keen as Netero's do?
 
@Calaca Vs

In this version Baam can use all his skills except the Shinsoo Orb, Twenty-Fifth Night Style and Baam-Style. Baam's AP in this key is 3.1 Megatons and was also casual, since he simply used Baangs of Shnisoo for the 3.1 megaton calc and his special techniques are far superior to his Baangs.

@Mand21

Well, the advantage of Range to Meruem is not going to be the problem for Baam, since if Baam looks at Meren's Nen techniques at least once, he will be able to copy the techniques and may have the same Range as Meruem. Do you know Shinwonryu?It is a technique that pervades that Baam nullufy energy attacks of opponents thousands of times stronger than him, for example: Baam has already used the Shinwonryu to dissipated an energy attack of a character At least High 6-C+, so attacks without being physical will be useless against Baam.

Baam is also very intelligent, Baam has also fought equally against swordsmen who had no weaknesses and managed to defeat them, people who can use invisible weapons and beat them, he was trained in various martial arts and mixed them, trained with professional assassins and copied their techniques.

Well, Baam's resistance will be one of the biggest advantages in this match since Baam can fight and train for 1 month non-stop and characters on the same level as he can fight normally after losing an arm while Meruem gradually dies because of poison.
 
Um... The feats you presented aren't that impressive.

A stamina difference is important if and only if the battle lasts long. With this difference of two times, it's enough for Meruem to get fully serious as soon as he notices Baam's power, and yet not need to waste too much time. Also, if it's a technique, all Meruem needs to do is use I and hit Baam with an invisible attack that is protected from extrasensorial perception. Don't claim something will be useless against Baam without him being utterly immune to it or you'll see him defeated by exactly that. Most likely, Meruem will know to use In, since at this point in Hunter X Hunter any hunter who doesn't know to always be using In and Gyo is fodder.

The feats you showed me make Baam's intelligence seem fodder-level compared to Meruem's. These are feats that I'm pretty sure Killua and Gon could do better, and Meruem is vastly smarter than them. Actually, Killua and Gon can presently no-diff users of invisible attacks even if all they do is use invisible attacks. Killua has low-diffed an opponent so far stronger than him that he couldn't damage him with normal (physical) attacks. Meruem has fought Netero in equal footing and in the end his victory was due to reading Netero's patterns even though they couldn't be called a bias and outsmarting him, and Netero is such a chessmaster that puts the protagonists to shame. Seriously, saying Baam is "also very intelligent" when comparing him to the extraordinary genius Meruem is simply makes you seem like you don't know what you're talking about: Meruem is just far too smart. He makes combat geniuses look dumb.

Baam's stamina won't help him at all. Meruem is proficient at severely punishing tiny little mistakes from opponents, or even using the most slight of biases and imprecisions that aren't even sufficient for immediate punishment, to slowly corner them or predict a future blunder, or guide them towards a disadvantage or opening. That's what he did with Netero, that's what made the chairman of the Hunter Association ultimately unable to defeat him with his own power. A difference of two times in power simply isn't enough to make an attrition battle with Meruem feasible.

EDIT: Never forget that, in HxH's verse, every single hunter is highly intelligent by necessity as you need that to pass the hunter exam and even that is insufficient to survive in the Greed Island game if one doesn't pass trainings such as developing a keen eye for enemy weaknesses and being able to think as fast as one's reflexes, yet these are treated as fodder and easily manipulated in the hundreds by the time we reach the Greed Island arc. Meruem treats the main characters who outsmarted these manipulators as fodder in every single aspect, even the intellectual one. And that's before his battle with Netero, which he now has the experience from, and he's a beast of learning capacity who can beat world champions in tabletop games like chess after a few matches, typically less than a day.
 
Meruem seems to have one advantage, that being his intelligence, though I do not think that it's enough at all.

For one thing, reverse shinsoo flow has not been brought up at all. Baam has used it the most so far in the series, and could certainly use it to stop Meruem in his tracks, and use his AP and speed advantage to greatly whittle him down. Intelligence is nice, but it doesn't stop him from being bombarded with Danmaku from a distance, from having to counter his own up close fighting style should they get close, or from the shinsoo black hole sphere, which would one shot him. In spite of his intelligence, there hasn't been a plan of attack suggested to show how Meruem would actually win. Whereas Baam is fully capable of copying his techniques, paralyzing him, bombarding him with danmaku, and using the black hole sphere to one shot or guard against ranged attacks that outrange his own. This also doesn't take into account Baam's latent speed advantage, which would aid him as his speed would actually allow him to outmaneuver Meruem a bit, slightly countering the intelligence gap. And his shinsoo enhancements can allow him to grow even faster and stronger, further widening the gap. Intelligence will only get you so far when the opponent has basically every other advantage.
 
The problem is that while Baam has every other advantage, none of them is sufficient to guarantee victory against Meruem, and Meruem's intellect is just massive.

Meruem's range is greater, so chances are that he will be the one bombarding Baam from afar. Despite the difference in stamina, don't you think that the need for Baam to approach before attacking would make him get significantly hurt before closing the 4km distance with Meruem? By that point, he might even be weakened enough that the physical advantages will be severely mitigated.

Versatility and Intelligence are good counters to each other, but if Meruem attacks from afar with his rage blasts and aura emission, potentially controlling them on their trajectories, he can attack Baam from a distance while reading his movements and weaknesses, and land several blows before that distance is closed and Baam finally has Meruem in his range. His intelligence and range advantage allow for just that.

Upon closing the distance, it's not like copying Meruem's fightiing style will do much. Meruem's fighting style does barely exist: he's always just foreseeing the opponent's movements, analysing them and making the best move possible. Baam may be either unable to copy it, or end up using it with blunders and mistakes that Meruem wouldn't commit, and thus getting severely punished, which would be completely lethal for him. If Baam can use speed to try to outmaneuver, Meruem's clairvoyance would allow him to see through Baam's movements before they happen, perfectly countering that speed difference, possibly excessively so.

Now, I'd like an explanation on how the reverse shinsoo flow works. It isn't well explained on Baam's profile in terms of how it functions and range. There is also no mention to the Shinsoo Black Hole Sphere. Regardless, with Meruem's intellect he should be able to counter simple defenses from ranged attacks, and he has a lot of room for error with that range difference. If Shinsoo enchantments can raise the gap further, Meruem could use things like Ko or charged attacks to momentarily sacrifice his defense but increase his strength and perhaps velocity for the span of one blow, which wouldn't open any significant weak spots during its execution, since he'd time and execute it perfectly as to hit Baam so that he can't counterattack.
 
Honestly, the range advantage is mostly nullified by the shinsu black hole sphere, which is the same as the Shinwonryu. It's specifically been shown to take attacks from those stronger than Baam, including Karaka and Data Zahard before Baam powered up. He could use this coupled with the mobility granted to him by Blue Oar to close the distance. Not to mention that he can cancel out the majority of Meruem's ranged options with his bangs. Though Baam doesn't necessarily have to get into CQC range, just enough to continuously pelt him with danmaku that are faster than he is.

Baam is also able to read movements. While perhaps Meruem may be able to make better of these movements, Baam's better ranged options make most of what Meruem would do to actually hurt Baam much more difficult. In particular since Baam holds the AP advantage, and that gap can be raised with shinsoo enhancements.

Baam would actually be very unlikely to use his fighting styles with blunders and mistakes considering that A) That's actually never happened before even when fighting those with experience literally hundreds of times above him, and B) The fact that he's not unintelligent. I know no one here has made Baam out to be stupid, but to be able to efficiently use a technique in the mist of battle that one has learned by seeing is quite impressive, and its employment requires intelligence. Not to mention that if Baam manages to copy Meruem's ranged options then the range advantage would be null and void, and he isn't so stupid as to attempt, or remain in CQC with someone who is clearly superior to him. And given his speed and constant slew of projectiles, a tactical retreat would be a simple matter for him if this situation actually does come about.

As for reverse shinsoo control, it's essentially manipulating the shinsoo in a person's body, reversing its flow to halt their movement. Most regulars and rankers in tower of god resist it by default (Somewhat similar to reiatsu crush from Bleach), but Mereum should hold no such resistances. In particular as Baam holds the AP advantage here regardless.

As for these perfect attacks Meruem is capable of executing, part of the reason these attacks worked against Netero is because Meruem held a decent speed advantage, able to blitz Netero and take off his limbs the moment he spotted an opening. Yet he doesn't hold the speed advantage here, and Baam is fully capable of reinforcing himself with shinsoo such that he won't lose a limb. Not to mention that he should be able to react given his higher speed. And the fact that he is fully capable of widening that gap. He also has extrasensory perception in addition, and would likely be able to tell that Meruem is looking for an opening given that he's done that thing before against Kaiser.

Another reason why this kind of attack would be difficult is because Baam's attack can home in on him, such that there would be a clear trading of attacks in the worst case event. Given Baam's Ap advantage of about 2x, and the fact that he can widen this gap, such a trade doesn't seem favorable for Meruem.

Essentially, Baam can nullify many, if not all of Meruem's ranged options with the shinsoo black hole sphere, without nullifying his own. His extrasensory perception and capacity to use the combined with his speed and flight to dodge dangerous attacks at the last minute would lend him a great deal in working to not be terribly injured attacks Meruem would unleash granted the Chimera Ant's higher intellect. Baam not only being superior in every attribute, but having the capacity to widen the gap he already has, in addition to being able to win without even having to get into CQC range should be enough for him to take a win here.
 
baam for Teon's reasons. Meruem is definetly Baams most skilled tactical fighter he has ever faught and that will give Meruem a huge advantage but Baam's verstitile abililies both offensive and defensive will be able to lessen that advantage.

I do see this as a difficult battle for both sides. Meruem is a skilled and smart fighter, while Baam is a well rounded and balanced fighter with a good offence and a good defence.
 
I don't think the black hole tatic alone would be sufficient to nullify or almost nullify Meruem's capacity to control his attacks after shooting them and read through an opponent's movements as well as feelings (via Clairvoyance) and his ultimate advantage on intellect. Indeed, I am not painting Baam as dumb by any means: he may as well be a combat genius, but the thing with Meruem is that throughout the series he makes several geniuses look and feel dumb by surpassing them at their own games (literally, as he challenges tabletop game masters such as chessmasters) and stomping them with sheer analytical prowess and learning capacity. It is not until he finds an extraordinary genius who also progresses supernaturally fast during play that he stagnates with a single enemy. It is also not until he faces off the superhuman combat genius Netero who never makes mistakes that he faces any difficulty or recognizes anyone's skill. When someone makes combat geniuses feel stupid, that someone isn't going to be easily faced off by a "mere" highly intelligent or gifted fighter. I do believe Baam is going to struggle to fight like Meruem correctly, to at least some extent (enough for Meruem to severely punish his imprecisions, since he can see through biases and guide an enemy towards a vulnerability even when such bias is insignificant), and that he's going to take damage at every phase of this battle, even if Meruem can never one-shot him.

Also, Meruem does have what it takes to resist this manipulation, if we recognize verse equalization. That's because Hunter X Hunter also has an equivalent of reiatsu crush, which is the emission of powerful psychological pressure in one's hatsu (emitted aura). The hatsu of an unexceptional Nen user can be tanked by pretty much anyone just by being a Nen user and holding to their Te. Meruem upon absorbing Shaiapouf could intimidate a person to the point of accelerating their ageing, plus if verse equalization makes so that the "vital energies" from every verse are vaguely similar, then he should be able to perfectly parry or even also resist by default this kind of technique. So yeah, not gonna work that way.

Baam's AP advantage is the one that has quite the chance of becoming insignificant, you know. That is, should Meruem simply never let himself get hit by Baam's attacks and always deflect or evade them, punishing every small gap. I am fully aware that he can never do such a thing as ripping off a limb like he could with Netero, but what about disjointing an arm? Breaking a small bone? Hitting a bodily weakspot or a nerve? And to mention again how Meruem's intellectual advantage is reinforced on his post-rose form by the fact he had now a clairvoyance capable of reading a person's thoughts and feelings, as a part of his En, a skill which by itself already greatly reinforces one's senses and ability to see through someone's movements.

Oh, and what is stopping Meruem from camping Baam out until he wins? If Baam simply fails to defend one in ten attacks (might be more than that given how nasty Meruem's intelligence is), he can keep backing off and attacking until Baam dies. We cannot know how in-character this is, but it's by no means impossible.
 
Ugh, my comment got deleted. I'm just gonna give a brief rundown, I don't feel like retyping everything.

Essentially, I think Baam's extrasensory perception is being underestimated. He should be more than capable of dodging Meruem's attacks, given that, against Kaiser, he was capable of dodging dozens of invisible attacks moving on abstract angles, and could even perform such with his eyes closed at one point, catching the attack. These attacks are faster than Meruem, and also do more damage, comparatively speaking, than Meruem can do. Not to mention that Baam can tank the attack to an extent, like what he did against Kaiser, and attack as he's being attacked. And if he uses a black hole sphere or flare wave explosion, which has piercing properties, it would certainly inflict lethal damage.

I also made a point that in the situations above, Meruem had tools comparable to that of his opponent. In chess he also has a set of chess pieces. Against Meruem he had a speed and strength advantage. Yet all he has here is his intelligence and range. And his range can be mostly rendered null by the shinsoo black hole sphere, or otherwise cancelling with bangs.

I don't think Meruem would try to camp Baam out, but I also fail to see how he would be able to do such. Baam has the speed advantage, and can literally take a seat on his disk of shinsoo if he so chooses and fire off bangs at him without needing to move. And if Meruem tries to run to camp elsewhere, Baam has the speed advantage. And that doesn't even factor in the speed advantage the thorn gives him, which is rather large, allowing him to take on people who were previously beating him with moderate effort, and providing a much needed boon to all of his attacks.

I don't remember what else I said before. RIP me.
 
True. I also think I left out the whole argument about reverse shinsoo flow being mildly effective.

Oh, his regen got upgraded from Low? I didn't know that either. Okay.
 
I'm not sure. Plus, even if it's a grazing blow, he typically has to be hit by an attack to copy it (minus when he copied the necromancer iirc). I'm honestly not sure, I'd have to give it more thought.
 
Hmm, you're right. I vote Baam, high-diff.

And Meruem has low-mid by consumption, though I wonder who will he consume to use it. Technically it can be used in any life form, but he finds normal humans disgusting (literally anything that's not a Nen user is disgusting to him), so I guess it only works if he grabs a chunk of Baam's meat.
 
I'm not saying Baam will be a better fighter, just saying that he can learn his style and know what to expect. But even without that i still think Baam wins.
 
Gabriel 00 said:
can't this be added? i know it need's 7 votes but the discussion is over already.
Click to expand...
Well, always for a match to be added, it takes 7 votes, so we can not close this match until we have seven votes for Baam or Meruem, these are the rules of the Versus Threads.
 
Have I mentioned how Meruem's body is filled with radiation and getting close to him might mean death? So, good chance of an inconclusive.
 
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