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Pokémon: Abomasnow's Storm downgrade

Kepekley23

Kepekley23

VS Battles
Retired
15,332
7,563
We have a lot to cover here.

This calculatio was used to reupgrade Pokémons to High 6-C+. However, it contains errors and is a high-end. Let's see what we get out of this.

1: Storm Speed
Firt of all, the diameter of the storm (79+ kilometers) is used to calculate its speed instead of the radius (39+ kilometers), which is wrong. Both halves of a storm expand equally, and due to that, only the radius that was spread can be used to calculate the kinetic energy.

This basic principle can also be seen in other types of KE calculations, such as Toneri's moon split, where the distance has to be divided by two because each half travels the distance equally.

All planetary storms need to divide the diameter of 40,000km in half because of this exact premise, too.

That means the speed as it is basically gets cut in half, and the result gets cut in four. However, that brings me to another issue...

2: Timeframe
The timeframe used to calculate the feat is the in-battle timeframe of Snow Warning. This is an abuse of Game Mechanics. Every single battlefield/weather changing ability is scripted exact same amount of in-game time

Rain Dance takes 2 seconds, so does Sandstorm, and so does Sunny Day/Drought, and so on, which is done so they can fit on a single turn of the battle. It's not the actual timeframe.

Looking at the anime now. In the battle against Wulfric, it takes between five and six seconds for the low-scale Snow Warning to be activated. I can't post a link to the episode due to FANDOM rules, but it's the 119th X and Y episode and it happens roughly 5:30 in.

  • 40000m / 5.5s = 7272m/s.
  • KE = 0.5*8,899,305,061,000*7272^2 = 2.35e20j, or 56 gigatons of TNT.
Downgrade.
 
I'll repeat my arguments from before, namely:

You keep on saying there's two halves of the storrm. There is no half of the storm. I can't get any simpler than that. The only way that the 79km would be halved is if Abomasnow was at the center of the town. Abomasnow is at the mountain outside of town. The 80km is only one direction.

The timeframe thing is nitpicking, plain and simple. As I said before, the beauty of the calc is that it only takes information from the games. And you're saying it's rife with game mechanics with even then, the anime scene is a couple seconds longer. And so what if Drought, Sunny Day, and Sand Stream activate as quick?
 
And you keep misinterpreting what I mean even though I have explained it rather cleanly several times by now.

You used 80 kilometers for the storm's total length. If it extended to another side, it'd be 160 kilometers, which it isn't. That's unbacked speculation that the original OBD calculator chose to ignore.

Your method ignores the actual physics behind such calcs. It can not be 80km because that's the storm's diameter.

A couple seconds longer, downgrades them to where they used to be. So it's very relevant.
 
Also, you do realize that this feat doesn't scale to anyone other than the Mega Evolutions? It's outright stated that this Abomasnow has energy levels far above average, therefore this feat can't be scaled to anyone without proof.

Which means they go from 9.5 gigatons to over 56 gigatons.
 
We can scale safely scale Mega Evolutions to this Abomasnow's feat. Everyone else would go back to 9.5gtt+, I believe.
 
Again, which is why I didn't calculate that. I understand what you're saying, I just vehemently disagree with you. The physics of which you keep going on literally only apply if the storm started in the center of town. It did not. With your logic, regardless of whether the storm started in the center of town or on a mountain not on the town, it'd be 59 gigatons regardless (we'll get to the timeframe later), which is outright false. The calc only takes into account the spread from left to right, not left and right. If a cold front moved from Maine to Florida, would you say that it only travelled half the length of the east coast?

I've said it a few times now, the calc takes nothing from a non-game source to increase its legitimacy. We'd only use other mediums to get information as a last resort, which there's absolutely no need to. You're claiming it's game mechanics due to other like abilities working that fast, and that has no grounds.
 
Kepekley23 said:
Also, you do realize that this feat doesn't scale to anyone other than the Mega Evolutions? It's outright stated that this Abomasnow has energy levels far above average, therefore this feat can't be scaled to anyone without proof.
Click to expand...
Again, false. Unless it's in a different scene than the one linked in the calc, the most that's said is that it's a fine specimen and that it's brimming with energy, not that it has energy levels far above average.
 
If 80 kilometers was the storm's radius and its diameter was 160km (which is the only way for the full 80km to be usable for speed), you'd be right.

But since the storm's full diameter is 80km, only the radius is usable for the speed calc, because both halves travel the diamweter equally. This is the exact reason why UMR asked if 80km was the distance traveled or the radius. It is only valid if it's the latter, and in this case it isn't.

Try and get the storm's diameter to 160km (somehow, because nothing in the game suggests so) if you want, but as it stands, 40km is the correct value for speed.

It's game mechanics because every single weather ability is scripted to only take a turn so it doesn't bypass the game's coding for a single turn. Battle mechanics are definitely unusable, straight out. Both the anime and the manga support it being above that.
 
Also, if you don't mind, I want to know what is the source calc for Dendemille Tow being nearly four times New York City's size? It isn't listed in the OBD calc.
 
You need to stop treating it like it's omnidirectional. The calc doesn't have it as that and neither do I. Call it Harry Styles, because it goes only one direction for the calc's purposes. The calc for the lowball assumes that it starts from Abomasnow and goes to the end of the town. Because that's what happens. And on the other end, it disperses from Abomasnow to the end of the town after Abomasnow stops getting bullied. The only way you'd be right is, for the fourth time, if Abomasnow started in the middle of the town. Which it didn't. Whether or not it's a 158 km storm isn't my problem, as I wasn't arguing for it.

Game Mechanics. You seem to be abiding by the last sentence right now (not my intent if that sounds rude). There's no reason for your belief of the moves to be battle mechanics, and it doesn't matter that the other weather moves activate as quickly. If it was supposed to be gradual, charging moves have existed since Gen 1. Plus, the anime does have some moves acting differently, like Thunder not coming from a cloud.
 
The only way you would be correct here is if 80km was only half of the storm's diameter. You said yourself that it wasn't. That automatically invalidates it as the value for the speed calc.

If we're going to rewrite basic 2nd grade Kinetic Energy principles, then might as well start by multiplying every single storm calc by four. Then multiply all planetary storms by 4, and so on. That's your proposal, afterall.
 
Kepekley23 said:
Also, if you don't mind, I want to know what is the source calc for Dendemille Tow being nearly four times New York City's size? It isn't listed in the OBD calc.
Click to expand...
"Treating the cloud expanse as a uniform rectangular cuboid in shape, the volume formula is simply length*width*height.

For cloud thickness, I'm assuming the cloud type is nimbostratus and following the direction of Flutter's wonderful cloud blog entry, going with a thickness of 2500 metres.

79540*44620*2500 = 8,872,687,000,000 m^3"

As you can see, 79540 is the length used, and KW, iirc, got the length & width using Dendemville Town and its French equivalent.

Also, NYC isn't the biggest city...
 
Okay then. The entire metropolitan region of Shanghai is only a bit above 60 kilometers.
 
Maybe it did cover the distance from Abomasnow to the edge of the town. Idk. That's the values that was accepted, even by ChaosTheory.
 
Kepekley23 said:
The only way you would be correct here is if 80km was only half of the storm's diameter. You said yourself that it wasn't. That automatically invalidates it as the value for the speed calc.

If we're going to rewrite basic 2nd grade Kinetic Energy principles and write a new paper detailing new revolutionary discoveries in Kinetic Energy properties, then might as well start by multiplying every single storm calc by four. Then multiply all planetary storms by 4, and so on. That's your proposal, afterall.
Click to expand...
Stop assuming that the storm has to spread out in a circular fashion from the radius. Not every storm has to do that, and if I wanted to do that, then this result would be multiplied by four. We see clouds move. We see cold/warm fronts move. We see hurricanes move. This isn't some new scientific foundry. It's basic kinetic energy. Something moves 79km, it moves 79km.
 
The value that was accepted is 80km, not the 160km that you say you don't agree with but keep implying. It was also accepted as Gravitational Potential Energy, which has nothing to do with this issue.

I can ask Chaos, Iwan, EM and the others about this issue. I was corrected on this before, afterall.
 
What does being accepted as gravitational potential energy have to do with the size of the town and the cloud? Yes, technically the radius of the cloud is 40km. You're not wrong about that. That's how math works. The center is the radius. What you are wrong about imo is that the storm could only travel outwards from the radius and can't cross distances normally like many other storms in real life do.

Considering how they are against KE being used for the feat at all, that immediately puts me at a disadvantage.
 
I...pray to god you didn't see what I typed before I edited. Man, that was wrong...

I meant to say that France is the second largest country on the continent, not planet lol.
 
Because you say that's the value that was accepted by them as if it had weight on the discussion here. This value would only be relevant here if said 80km value accepted by the OBD was Kinetic Energy-related.

Also, I still don't know how they got the town at 80 kilometres when it is literally a dot on the Kalos wideshot, with Kalos itself being ~450km from north to south, east to west. The mere implicatio is astounding, and not in a good way.
 
Kalos is interview stated to be a little less than half France, which is 936 kilometers north to south.
 
Neat. So Kalos should be roughly 480 kilometers north to south.

Picture 1 (map of Kalos)

  • Kalos = 655px = 480km
  • Westernmost portion = 145px = 106.25 kilometers.
Picture 2 (map of all cities)

  • Westernmost portion of Kalos = 80px = 106.25km
  • Dendemille Town = 9px = 12km.
So Dendemille Town is 12 kilometers wide going by mapscaling, which makes far more sense with both our reality, where 12km is a sizeable city, and the anime portrayal. Even Luminose City, the largest in Kalos, is very small comparatively.
 
List each and every one, then. The visible portion of Kalos that we've seen so far and I used to scale is the northern half of France, that is hardly even debatable and has been confirmed numerous times.
 
Literally the interview I linked, as well as the other one with Masuda, says it's France. No mention of Norther France. Is Unova now New York + New Jersey, even though it's been stated by the creators to be based on New York? And Hawaii has more than 4 islands.
 
https://cdn.bulbagarden.net/upload/...omparison.png/450px-FranceKalosComparison.png

You can even see Alderney Island (the two little dot islands in the northernmost part) in the Kalos shot. Paris is a perfect match with where it is located on northern France.

The interview you linked says they based Kalos off of France. Nothing about Kalos being the size of the entire France, which is contradicted by common sense.

It's extremely consistent that the towns are in the low kilometer range. Lumiose City is consistently portrayed as well below <30km in radius. A random town off the center being 80km would be a literal logistical nightmare.
 
I'll admit I was wrong about one thing. And the only thing I'll admit being wrong about was that the original calc didn't take into consideration the distance from Dendemville Town to Frost Cavern.
 
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