Sans vs Flowey

Numbersguy · Dec 16, 2015

What if Sans decided to take out Flowey by himself?

Sans is bloodlusted (let's say Flowey killed Fritz for real).

Flowey is bloodlusted.

They fight on a neutral universe

Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot · Dec 16, 2015

Is this base Flowey or Omega Flowey?

Omega Flowey OMGWTFBBQROFLmurks Sans...hard. Not really a fair fight.

I assume we're using normal Flowey, and if that's the case, then I don't know. Flowey did say that he loathed Sans due to how many times he beat him and caused him to reset, but Flowey did beat him, eventually (the exact number of times he did this is unknown). If he's going into the fight with that knowledge, he may already know all of Sans' moves. Sans may be able to read people's expressions crazy well, but Flowey can see people down to every last variable.

Gnomishness · Dec 16, 2015

I'd guess Flowey for several reasons, but primarily due to Flowey's EXTREME depth of experience compared to Sans.

Gnomishness · Dec 16, 2015

Still, it wouldn't be easy for either of them.

Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot · Dec 16, 2015

Gnomishness said:
Still, it wouldn't be easy for either of them.

Pretty much this.

Squid_peanut · Dec 16, 2015

while KR would destroy Omega Flowey like nobodies buisness (souless and 9999 LOVE) sans' would have to relie on reading Flowey to dodge his attacks, which given Flowey's nonsencical expression and severe lack of tells he probably wouldn't, also save scumming, that sort of makes sans winning impossible

Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot · Dec 16, 2015

Squid peanut said:
while KR would destroy Omega Flowey like nobodies buisness (souless and 9999 LOVE) sans' would have to relie on reading Flowey to dodge his attacks, which given Flowey's nonsencical expression and severe lack of tells he probably wouldn't, also save scumming, that sort of makes sans winning impossible

Hence why I'm assuming the battle is against base Flowey.

Squid_peanut · Dec 16, 2015

Azathoth the Abyssal Idiot said:
Hence why I'm assuming the battle is against base Flowey.

then I say that not much will happen since technically Flowey would have killed no one so his LV and KR would be super low and sans could dodge anything thrown at him. Base Flowey is much more expressive than Omega Flowey

Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot · Dec 16, 2015

Squid peanut said:
then I say that not much will happen since technically Flowey would have killed no one so his LV and KR would be super low and sans could dodge anything thrown at him. Base Flowey is much more expressive than Omega Flowey

True, but remember Flowey has killed Sans, before. Granted he lost quite a few times beforehand, but he eventually won due to being able to read everything Sans was going to do.

Promestein · Dec 16, 2015

Well... Base Flowey eventually killed Sans anyways.

Probably more than once. Probably countless times.

So...?

Squid_peanut · Dec 16, 2015

Azathoth the Abyssal Idiot said:
True, but remember Flowey has killed Sans, before. Granted he lost quite a few times beforehand, but he eventually won due to being able to read everything Sans was going to do.

so we're having it where Flowey has already fought and beaten sans? doesn't that sort of defeat the purpose of them fighting at all?

Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot · Dec 16, 2015

Promestein said:
Well... Base Flowey eventually killed Sans anyways.
Probably more than once. Probably countless times.

So...?

"I've done everything this world has to offer.

I've read every book.

I've burned every book.

I've won every game.

I've lost every game.

I've appeased everyone.

I've killed everyone."

We don't know how many times he did it, but we know he eventually did.

Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot · Dec 16, 2015

Squid peanut said:
so we're having it where Flowey has already fought and beaten sans? doesn't that sort of defeat the purpose of them fighting at all?

I mean, he's done all of this before the game even begins, so probably. Unless it's specified they have no knowledge of each other.

Squid_peanut · Dec 16, 2015

yes, actually does Flowey ever say that he's beaten sans, I sort of saw it as whenever Flowey tried to genocide to get enough LV to beat Asgore and get the souls, sans stopped him.

FTW395 · Dec 16, 2015

What would Sans' tier actually be? Because he's just rated as Unknown...

Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot · Dec 16, 2015

FTW395 said:
What would Sans' tier actually be? Because he's just rated as Unknown...

Pretty hard to actually define.

Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot · Dec 16, 2015

Squid peanut said:
yes, actually does Flowey ever say that he's beaten sans, I sort of saw it as whenever Flowey tried to genocide to get enough LV to beat Asgore and get the souls, sans stopped him.

Flowey's definitely killed Asgore and Sans, before. They're part of "everyone". You have to remember that the problem wasn't beating Asgore. It was getting Asgore to reveal the souls, which Flowey could never get him to do. Without those, it was just kind of pointless.

Squid_peanut · Dec 16, 2015

Azathoth the Abyssal Idiot said:
Flowey's definitely killed Asgore and Sans, before. They're part of "everyone". You have to remember that the problem wasn't beating Asgore. It was getting Asgore to reveal the souls, which Flowey could never get him to do. Without those, it was just kind of pointless.

we need specification then

is Flowey permited the memories of having previously faced sans

has Flowey done a genocide route before Fighting sans

for if Flowey could beet him, is there any actual evidence that he did.

Angry_Dummy · Dec 17, 2015

1) Giving Flowey the memories of fighting Sans before means that one side has an unfair advantage in prep-time. This is a simulation of his first run.

2) That's probably the only way that this could have happened.

3) Undertale relies a lot more on words than actual evidence, leaving a lot of things fairly abstract. All we know is that Flowey killed "everyone" at least one time, and now he is purposefully keeping his existence a secret from Sans after a scuffle with him.

This flower is likely getting dunked on.

Omega Flowey, on the other hand, wins by virtue of being able to do so instantly kill someone with a lot more health, Frisk, at the end of a neutral run right after the epic troll-face.

He verifies this about nine more times afterwards in rapid succession.

[1]

Northern_Wind00 · Dec 17, 2015

I see no reason to not believe that Omega-Flowey and Sans have fought before, and that Sans won the first match. Allow me to explain my reasoning.

Assuming Flowey never got his leaves on the human souls before leaves a big gap in the "Experienced every possibility" story he tells the player in a Genocide run. Given that Flowey expresses significant frustration at his many defeats by sans, it's safe to assume that Flowey would have attempted, at some point along the line (and indeed, necessarily must have, if his story is to be believed), to aquire the human souls after aquiring Asgore's trust, THEN genociding. If that is the case then he would have, indeed, should have been able to kill sans without difficulty, which would eliminate the element of frustration in Flowey's speech about having been forced to reset more times by Sans than anyone. I propose that rather than treating these things as incidentally separate, we look at the combined conclusion.

Sans was able to defeat Omega Flowey, even at full power, until Omega Flowey figured out how to defeat him.

Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot · Dec 17, 2015

@Northern Wind00

Doesn't Flowey make it pretty clear that he was only ever able to get the souls because Asgore revealed them to Frisk? I doubt he could have gotten them, before. There's also the fact that, had Flowey gotten the souls before and Frisk hadn't been there to stop him, there wouldn't really be a world, anymore. Just Flowey's special hell.

I have sincere doubts Sans would even be able to fight Omega Flowey, as the only reason Frisk even survived him plunging the game into oblivion (which seemingly nobody else did) was their massive amount of Determination.

Northern_Wind00 · Dec 17, 2015

Azathoth the Abyssal Idiot said:
@Northern Wind00
Doesn't Flowey make it pretty clear that he was only ever able to get the souls because Asgore revealed them to Frisk? I doubt he could have gotten them, before. There's also the fact that, had Flowey gotten the souls before and Frisk hadn't been there to stop him, there wouldn't really be a world, anymore. Just Flowey's special hell.

I have sincere doubts Sans would even be able to fight Omega Flowey, as the only reason Frisk even survived him plunging the game into oblivion (which seemingly nobody else did) was their massive amount of Determination.

Flowey never says anything of the sort, which is relevant. He only says that he could never have gotten past Asgore without you. That's really odd, considering that he's beaten Asgore in the past, supposedly. Also, once he killed Asgore, there was literally nothing stopping him from taking the souls at his liesure. Sans would be unwilling to engage until the endgame as well, which leads to a muddling of the storyline unless we assume the two of them fought like this.

Also, there's a very common misconception that Flowey/Sans/Asriel are fighting Frisk/Chara alone. They're not. They're fighting a being from a higher dimension; The player. This is why Sans' ultimate goal in the fight is to appeal to the humanity within the monster he's fighting and to try to force the PLAYER to QUIT the GAME. Sans cannot reasonably expect Chara to 'quit', since 'quitting' is an out of game action that requires the player to literally exit the program that is the game, thus bringing them to the title screen and there, the option to true-reset. This is why Frisk is not wiped out with the rest of the timeline, when both Flowey and Asriel do it as well, because the source of the Determination seen throughout the game is not Chara nor Frisk, it is you, the player. Chara wrests control from the player to destroy the universe at the endgame of a genocide run, and Asriel is forced to accept that the Player is not Chara and that he can only interact actually with Frisk. You, either way, leave the picture shortly after with one final choice, to determine the ending. Flowey, after a pacifist run, speaks to you directly about this, not Chara, but you, telling you that you are the one who can undo all of this.

Also, Floweytale still takes place inside the game, It's a separate room existing within the core code, which is used to establish canon. It is highly likely that it functions similarly to a pocket universe, rather than a separate game entirely, and therefore Sans, if this world were to come about, would eventually get his shot at fighting a megalomanic Flowey hell bent on killing everything in the entire game.

I rest my case on this, even with this capability; it would appear that sans STILL managed to frustrate flowey, across many resets. It's entirely possible sans COULD beat Omega Flowey, especially since Sans' magic would be super effective against his LV 9999 Souls.

Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot · Dec 17, 2015

Yes, he could never have gotten past Asgore in this timeline, because it's unlikely he gained enough Lv to challenge him. In the genocide route, when Flowey is talking to you in New Home, he doesn't say, "I could never defeat Asgore". He talks about how he could never get Asgore to reveal the souls to him. He couldn't absorb them if he didn't know where they were, and thus it is unlikely he ever became Omega Flowey before this.

I am aware the player is a separate, canon entity, but I'm not sure what that has to do with this scenario, in particular.

Yes, it's possible Sans could have fought Flowey eventually, but my point is that it is unlikely he did it, beforehand. As I said, it is implied Flowey never acquired the six human souls until Frisk arrived. This also means that every time this world was created, regardless of the number of times, would always lead to Frisk fighting Omega Flowey, not anyone else.

Sans definitely managed to frustrate Flowey. I never argued that. Simply that he wasn't Omega when this was happening. I don't doubt Sans could lower Omega Flowey's hp to 0 if he got enough hits on him, but actually defeating him is pretty much impossible, as Flowey would just reset his health back to maximum, every time. Hell, Frisk couldn't even defeat him. They needed the souls to rebel.

Northern_Wind00 · Dec 17, 2015

Azathoth the Abyssal Idiot said:
Sans definitely managed to frustrate Flowey. I never argued that. Simply that he wasn't Omega when this was happening. I don't doubt Sans could lower Omega Flowey's hp to 0 if he got enough hits on him, but actually defeating him is pretty much impossible, as Flowey would just reset his health back to maximum, every time. Hell, Frisk couldn't even defeat him. They needed the souls to rebel.

Pardon me, but doesn't that mean that Frisk and Chara win absolutely everything ever because they cannot be beaten permanently? I think, in the case of entities that can reset battles, we cannot apply that ability to any fight. To the death is the fairest measure, because anything beyond that is making any character that can reset functionally impossible to beat?

Also, Sans can destroy those souls directly, Frisk could not.

Also, also, My point is, because Flowey literally states to the player in a genocide run, that he has killed EVERYONE that would include Asgore. Once Asgore is dead, there is literally nothing stoping Flowey from finding the souls. After all, he can go basically anywhere and do basically anything at that point. The souls are in the underground, and he's killed everyone multiple times, and he's also become everyone's friend and trusted buddy multiple times, which implies that he could have easily gotten where they are out of Asgore through simple means of asking his "best friend". Once Flowey knows about the souls, the question becomes, in order to have experienced everything to the point where he was bored enough to let time pass to when the player hits the scene... Wouldn't that mean he absolutely would have had to have had a run where he killed Asgore first, took the souls for himself, then fought everyone else? That seems to make sense in my head. Am I just crazy?

WarriorWare · Dec 17, 2015

Doesn't Flowey say that Sans has forced him to reset several times, implying that Sans has canoncially beaten him?

I think Sans would just beat Flowey the same way Frisk did, but with more lasers. He just needs to last long enough for the human souls to turn on him.

F0rZ3r0 · Dec 17, 2015

I'd say personally, Flowey wins or it's draw. Flowey has said before that if he's not lying (which is a high chance that he isn't, because he has SAVE and LOAD). According to what I've seen though, apparently Flowey has had trouble against Sans and vice versa (can someone point me to a source in which this is said somewhere?).

There's a few ways this can go, based on what Frisk does in the story: Frisk kills Asgore, letting Flowey become God Flowey. If this is God Flowey vs Sans, I'd say it's possibly in God Flowey's favor because as said on his page, he can literally have a command the fabric of space-time. Sans has a chance at dodging God Flowey, but whether or not KR applies here, I'm unsure. That, and Sans can't SAVE and LOAD, but he knows about it. He's pretty much screwed here.

Normal Flowey, I'd say it's a draw. Flowey can SAVE and LOAD even out of God Flowey. Flowey normally has a lot of unknown abilities, but it can be assumed that he doesn't have the souls in this scenario, so it could be a draw.

God Flowey - Win if his memory is intact from other timelines, win or draw if he doesn't. He has much more control and has witnessed everything (if his memory is retained after manipulating the other timelines). Especially since Sans can't keep up with Flowey in this form, he'll have a very bad time.

Flowey - Draw if he still has his memory from other timelines, loss if he doesn't. I'd say it's because Flowey will not have the experience of killing others, and we only know of those two attacks, which could kill Asgore and bring Frisk close to death. Sans theoretically could do this too, as he's much quicker than Asgore and keeps up with Frisk in the genocide fight.

In the case that Flowey does have his memory, as other people have said (which I still want to see a source for), these two have fought in Flowey's other timelines and have lost and won against each other. Whether or not this would occur again is unclear, but he will probably be fighting either sloppier, more focused, but definitely at his highest since Frisk is killed in this. It can be assumed that Frisk was important to Sans if he is bloodlusted, so in terms that Frisk went TP. This one is more unclear as so little is known about base Flowey.

Flowey - I'd say a draw.

Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot · Dec 18, 2015

@Nothern Wind00

Yes, Sans did kill Flowey MANY times. Flowey confirmed this. However, this was base Flowey we're talking about. Not Omega Flowey. People seem to forget that base Flowey can indeed fight and gets stronger the more exp he gains. He's not just a Flower. There's also the fact that Frisk resets once they die. Omega Flowey does not. He's not even dead when he resets the timeline and ROFLmurks Frisk repeatedly just for his own sick enjoyment. He just wanted to give Frisk a false sense of hope.

Souls can be reset with time, so that would hardly matter to Flowey. Sans also couldn't attack his soul directly, because Flowey doesn't have one. He'd be basing his attacks on the EXP of the six souls, individually.

lol No, you're not crazy, I just don't think it's as simple as that. Flowey's grown bored with everything. Yes, he could find the six human souls, but it would likely take him an eternity and wouldn't accomplish anything. Since Frisk wasn't down there yet, Flowey wouldn't have a seventh human soul to take (and he needed Frisk to get his "replacement" souls, as well), so he couldn't go and slaughter humanity directly, which he wanted to do in an attempt to feel something. So searching for those souls wouldn't get him anything. He'd become Omega, and that was it. Considering he implied just giving up every time he couldn't get Asgore to show him the souls, I doubt searching all of the Underground for them was on his agenda.

@WarriorWare

Yes, Sans canonically killed base Flowey. There is nothing to suggest he ever fought Omega Flowey, or that Flowey ever even became Omega Flowey before Frisk's arrival. Assuming he did it speculation at best, especially considering Flowey's mentions of never getting Asgore to show him the souls.

Northern_Wind00 · Dec 18, 2015

Azathoth the Abyssal Idiot said:
so he couldn't go and slaughter humanity directly, which he wanted to do in an attempt to feel something.

That's not true at all. It only takes one Human soul plus one monster soul to cross the barrier. With the six human souls and Asgore's soul, it's more than necessary that Flowey could, indeed WOULD have destroyed all of humanity multiple times as well, because he wouldn't need to destroy the barrier to do so. He would just need to pass through it and destroy everything outside

"There is nothing to suggest he ever fought Omega Flowey" ...I wouldn't say that. Looking over the evidence I just gave, it would appear that the only reason flowey didn't Omega immidiately against You/Chara/Frisk is because he wanted his friend to become stronger. Also Sans is more than capable of killing a human soul with 1 LV in 2/3 of a second. That's something that could easily force a reset, if Flowey's souls were all being destroyed.

Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot · Dec 18, 2015

Ah, right. Completely forgot you could pass through with one human and one monster soul. Thank you for correcting me. However, wouldn't Asgore need to be alive, for that? Since killing him would almost instantly destroy his soul. I mean, I suppose Flowey could take it while he was alive, but still. He'd have to get around Asgore, find the souls, then take Asgore's soul.

Wait, do you mean in the true ending? Or the neutral ending? Because I'm pretty sure his reasons in the true ending were because he was waiting for everyone to fall into his trap.

Yes, Sans is capable of destroy a powerful human soul, but also one that is pure, unbridled evil. We don't have any idea how many monsters the other humans killed, if any at all (save for the ballerina).

Northern_Wind00 · Dec 18, 2015

Azathoth the Abyssal Idiot said:
Wait, do you mean in the true ending? Or the neutral ending? Because I'm pretty sure his reasons in the true ending were because he was waiting for everyone to fall into his trap.

Yes, Sans is capable of destroy a powerful human soul, but also one that is pure, unbridled evil. We don't have any idea how many monsters the other humans killed, if any at all (save for the ballerina).

I'm referring to any ending. He spends the entire game trying to coax you into gaining LV, because he believes you're Chara, and when you refuse hard enough, he does it himself, once to prove his power over you, and when you spare him, again to show his ACTUAL power over you, the fact that you won't ever give up trapping you in his cycle, even though you have endless determination.

Also KR isn't the only damage Sans' bones do. They do, before KR, one point of non-mitigatable raw magic damage per frame, that not even Temmie Armor helps against. A pure soul with 1 LV would still die in 20 frames to one of Sans' bones.

Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot · Dec 18, 2015

Okay, but he does immediately go Omega in the neutral ending. He doesn't in the true ending, due to waiting for everyone to fall into his trap.

Yes, but doesn't Omega Flowey have thousands upon thousands of points of hp?

Northern_Wind00 · Dec 18, 2015

Azathoth the Abyssal Idiot said:
Okay, but he does immediately go Omega in the neutral ending. He doesn't in the true ending, due to waiting for everyone to fall into his trap.
Yes, but doesn't Omega Flowey have thousands upon thousands of points of hp?

~8000 HP

Let's do the math on that, not factoring KR, on a ten minute timer, which Sans is usually on, we assume that 50% of sans' time is offensive and 50% is Defensive, where his defensive attacks are at a 50% effectiveness to his offensive ones, and only 90% of the time on either of these actually CAN hit Omega Flowey. With his fight in mind, we take a base of 600 and... I forget if it's 30fps or 40 for the sans fight, so, I'll run my calculations off of 30.

600 x 30 = 18000

18000*.9 = 16200

16200/2 = 8100

8100/2 = 4050

4050+8100 = 12150

Not factoring any KR, assuming Flowey cannot dodge, we come to a total of about 12150 damage caused within Sans' 10 minute timer. Assuming Flowey CAN dodge, he would need to dodge 34.16% or more of every attack Sans throws in order to win.

The point about the difference in Omega choice comes down to the simple fact that you beat him in Omega form before and he knew he would need more power to overcome you. That seems to make sense in my head.

Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot · Dec 18, 2015

Yes, but unlike Sans, Flowey would only need to hit him with anything once, and I'm fairly certain the RNG in his attacks, like the rest of the coding, is canon.

Northern_Wind00 · Dec 18, 2015

Azathoth the Abyssal Idiot said:
Yes, but unlike Sans, Flowey would only need to hit him with anything once, and I'm fairly certain the RNG in his attacks, like the rest of the coding, is canon.

It really depends on how good Sans actually is at dodging, but considering he can do it at Relativistic+ Speed while asleep, I think that says alot about his chances here. I dunno, it's a close call, but I'd give the advantage to Sans unless Omega Flowey knew what everything Sans was going to do in order, which he wouldn't the first time around.

Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot · Dec 18, 2015

Isn't the whole deal with Sans that he can dodge almost anything, but "can't keep dodging forever"? Considering Omega Flowey's powers, he literally has forever to hit Sans.

Northern_Wind00 · Dec 18, 2015

Azathoth the Abyssal Idiot said:
Isn't the whole deal with Sans that he can dodge almost anything, but "can't keep dodging forever"? Considering Omega Flowey's powers, he literally has forever to hit Sans.

You are right about that, but "To the reset" would be a fair measure. in a one on one, to the first death, I think Sans takes it. that's my point.

Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot · Dec 18, 2015

Northern Wind00 said:
You are right about that, but "To the reset" would be a fair measure. in a one on one, to the first death, I think Sans takes it. that's my point.

For anyone else (including base Flowey), I'd agree, but save scumming is part of Omega Flowey's in-battle moveset. It's not really meant to be fair. He'll LOAD a SAVE even when he's not in trouble just to hit you with an attack you previously avoided.

Northern_Wind00 · Dec 18, 2015

Azathoth the Abyssal Idiot said:
For anyone else (including base Flowey), I'd agree, but save scumming is part of Omega Flowey's in-battle moveset. It's not really meant to be fair. He'll LOAD a SAVE even when he's not in trouble just to hit you with an attack you previously avoided.

Let's give him that capability and say that if sans ***** up reading WHEN that's going to happen once he loses. That seems fair to me, the only thing that can't be done is the full battle reset.

Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot · Dec 18, 2015

I can see that.

Retro_Ducky · Feb 17, 2016

So it all boils down to this: if it was just regular flowey, than Sans would kill him, piece of cake. If it was omega flowey, Sans would have a harder time beating him because it is a totally random bullet hell, so Sans couldn't predict it, and one hit would mean he was dead. But if he could get a hit on flowey than flowey would be wiped out because of his massive love. Also it wouldn't be very fair because of never actually getting to access the menu, you just have to wait for the fight action to appear. But if sans was able to attack flowey freely (in the same way flowey attacks you, with no turns) than sans would murder him.

Sans vs Flowey

Resurrection Lily

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