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So I read "Final Crisis: Superman Beyond" finally, and I just wonder why the Monitors aren't considered 1-A.

Before I go over what was actually in the comic, I want to mention that the generic map of the multiverse that everyone has see says that the Monitor Sphere is a realm that contains all that can be thought, implying that only Unknowable things like beyond the Source Wall. It even says that Dream, the realm where the Endless dwell, is below the Monitor Sphere.

Here, Zillo Valla said that her world (either referring to Nil or the Monitor Sphere, itself) were to disappear, so would all existence. Here, she refers to the Monitors of Nil as the Masters of the Overvoid. They mention needing 4D vision, but that's definitely inconsistent with everything else we see in the comic. Here, Zillo Valla reveals that her heart is what powers the ship and allows it to sail through the Overvoid. Even Limbo is a place where matter and memory breaks down, on the shores of oblivion, nowhere, where nothing matters, nothing ever happens, and stories and time don't exist. We do see later that the Overvoid "exists" there, but he's obviously beyond Limbo. Here, we see that the Overvoid created a concept (presumably the first, predating time, space, dimensions, et cetera) to contain the first flaw, and here, we see that that concept is Mandrakk, and there is also a statement that implies his first death caused the defeat of the Great Evil Beast, Overman implies that he came from the Overvoid here, and even his machines came out of the Overvoid, these same machines are referred to as his eyes, threatening all existence, and the fight against said machines was breaking all of the rules of existence, and they came from "beyond reality".

If this isn't solid enough, "likely 1-A" should still be reasonable.
 
We have already been talking about this elsewhere. You can ask Sandman31, Quantu, and Matthew Schroeder to comment here if you wish.
 
I don't think they qualify as 1-A at all.

Destroying all reality in this context would be High 1-B at the highest. And I don't think baseline Monitors are that strong.
 
What do you think Matthew? Should they get before and after being contaminated by stories keys?
 
Also if not plain 1-A, I suggest making two keys.

One for before they got contaminated by the "germs" and one after. (Zillo Valla said Pre-Contamination, they were faceless, storyless and timeless)
 
Not being able to just wish away the multiverse of time and space may be plot induced stupidity similar to that the Beyonders overpowered the Living Tribunal, but were killed in turn by universe-destroying bombs.
 
@Quantu

Yes, but we cannot do everything at once. There are so many franchises to take care of in this wiki at once, that changes generally move very slowly individually.
 
Hence, I mentioned "thats a whole 'nother ball game". But my bad if you think I'm being urgent.
 
No problem. I am just mentioning this in general.
 
Sandman31 said:
place at the very edge of art where all these forgotten ideas live.
Oh, this is useful information.

But what is wrong with the Monitors being 1-A? The information provided for the Monitors being 1-A is more solid than the Endless being 1-A.
 
I thought we were talking about the Anti-Monitor and Monitor here and I was worried until I read the post.
 
The Monitor Sphere does exists beyond the story of DC, its an archetypal realm beyond the DCU proper. The Monitors are beings of pure thought, they are primal Forms that lives in fundamental world.
 
^ This, sided with the fact that they have many feats and going into and maneuvering throughout the Overvoid should make them qualify for 1-A.

The whole "threatening all existence" thing was just me showing how powerful Mandrakk's eyes were. This is basically him glancing at creation and a bunch of machines start breaking all laws of reality.

Morrison: Yeah. Again, on the very edge of the art and the edge of the mind of God there are these two big concepts fighting ― Superman and Mandrakk, Predation and Protection, Greed and Preservation, Ugly and Beautiful, Youth and Age, Good and Evil, Black and White, Is and Isn't and all the others. Beyond that crumbling ledge in Monitor-World, those concepts don't exist and it's all non-dual Monitor mind, or God, or Kirby's Source, in which all contradictions are resolved into unity. It's funny, the more I talk about it, the more I'm getting into it!

Here, we have Morrison talking about how Cosmic Armour Superman and Mandrakk basically embody all concepts.
 
The Monitors were also said to be primal forms that lives in an archetypal and fundamental world

Morrison also said that the Monitors are writer gods, Grant Morrison believes that gods are primal forms, expressions of big ideas that have been here long before us and will remain long after, that they represent Platonic Ideals or archetypal human experience.
 
Yeah, but I've already brought that up on another thread and it was rejected, the gods are not going to be upgraded to 1-A but will have something called "false Platonism"
 
(On phone and a bus sorry for speling trash) so the Monitor sphere is outside of the DC story (TR had to create his own hyper story to survive or smthn like that), described as Nil,blank and where form and meaning surrender to the overvoid. Monitors are primal and fundamental forces of existence and platonic according to gm

Monitors were timeless, faceless with no beginning or, storyless end and transcended the concept of time. Even limbo is merely a spec to TMS and it contains the book with the Infinite D multivers (all stories) in it.

Seems pretty 1-A to me :)
 
1-A contradicts the established power levels of the New Gods too much. I also doubt that Grant Morrison intended them to be able to wish infinite-dimensional multiverses in and out of existence.
 
Anyway, let's wait for Matthew to get the time to properly analyse this. I trust his sense of judgement regarding these topics.
 
Just one thing I wanna say

The Sphere of the Gods isnt a spatial dimension but a metaphysical layer (which means it contains more than one dimension), it shouldnt just be 5D or 6D considering that it contains the Silver City which was created in the darkness before time, predating the infinite dimensional Creation of the Presence (Because the Presence created the Silver City before Creation)

I'm not saying that all of the inhabitants of the Sphere of the Gods is 1-A/High 1-B, it's just that I've seen upgrades in the past that got shot down because "He's/She's from the Sphere of the Gods so he couldnt be this strong"
 
The Sphere of the Gods has no proof of being 1-A, or having multiple dimensions. This is pure speculation. The Silver City being created before the multiverse (Which isn't exactly true. It was created when the multiverse was still new) doesn't mean it is 1-A.
 
Analyzing the OP:

  • The Monitor Sphere is the highest level of reality, the most primal and fundamental level. But it isn't beyond reality.
  • This is a High 1-B feat. If the fundamental of the multiverse is destroyed, the rest goes with it.
  • "Masters of the Overvoid" is vague, and seems like a boost. Mandrakk died when he touched the Overvoid.
  • Moving in 1-A space =/= Being 1-A.
  • "Shores of Oblivion" is used in relation to Limbo because Limbo is a place devoid of stories. It is "Nowhere" from a narrative sense.
  • Mandrakk being the "First Flaw", or First Villain works from the perspective of those within the multiverse. But he obviously cannot scale upwards from the Great Evil Beast.
  • Again, machines floating in the Overvoid =/= 1-A.
  • Mandrakk being able to destroy all of existence = High 1-B.
 
I always interpreted the "concept made to contain the flaw" to be the monitor sphere itself, since that's what the monitor sphere does; it contains the "flaw" that is DC creation. And yeah Mandrakk didn't die from touching the overvoid lmfao idk why people think that, it explicitly said the mind of monitor made the conscious desicion to erase Mandrakk.

Overall though I'd have to say I don't agree with things like scaling him from TGEB but for the overall tier yes.
 
GM said that the orrery of warld was the concept the Monitor-Mind made to contain the flaw
 
@Matthew

What I'm trying to say is, why does being from the Sphere of the Gods means you cant be higher than 5D when beings much higher than High 2-A lives there? I've seen upgrades debunked just because "It cant be that powerful because its from the sphere of the gods", which is what I dont agree with

Also, the Silver City was created before time and space itself
 
Vertigo and regular DC Comics standards have a tendency to contradict each other though.
 
Antvasima said:
Vertigo and regular DC Comics standards have a tendency to contradict each other though.
Well, Lucifer and Sandman reference mainstream DC a lot.

And Vertigo Cosmology was present in 90s JLA, Spectre and Supergirl.
 
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