DBS tier "revision" (I'm sorry)

First of all, I want to clarify that I'M NOT TRYING TO COMPLETELY CHANGE THE TIER.

What I'm trying to do here is to "lower" the tier of some characters from "Low 2-C" to "At least 3-A, possibly Low 2-C", because I think it's much more consistent. Current victories and losses won't be affected.

I'd like to specify that I like the series, and I'm not doing this because of spite or anything like that, but because I sincerely think that this would be the most accurate tiering for it, which to me is more important than having a verse you like on an high tier via wanking.

I would also like to ask not to close this thread by simply saying "It has already been discussed". I think that most of my points are fair, and since the series ended this could be an occasion to put an end to this. If everything gets debunked you can just link this discussion to whoever tries to do the same thing after me.


Now, let's get started.


I think that a 3-A rating is much more consistent of the current low 2-C one, because the latter doesn't have enough evidence to support it. The current tier scales from Infinite Zamasu, who fused with the universe.
Although it's not relevant to my main point, I'd like to give my opinion on this feat:

1. If a characters shows a feat infinite^2 times more powerful than everything we've ever seen in the series, and no other character (including those supposedly stronger than him) has ever replicated anything of that sort, the feat should be treated as a possible outlier. This is even more true when we have a statement that suggests that he may actually be weaker than before (Goku thought that with Senzus they would've had a chance), which actually seems to make more sense logically (Black was a mortal, so merged Zamasu should've lost half of himself).

2. Omnipresence doesn't scale to ki. Even if Zamasu is low 2-C his only way to attack is by using ki blasts, since he's incorporeal. Those ki blasts don't seem to be 4D (he barely hurt base Goku and Vegeta) and there's no reason to assume that his ki became infinite times more powerful since his soul is still the same as before.

3. Even if we assume that he was a low 2-C with low 2-C power there's a chance that the characters didn't realize that (it would be weird for a 3D character to be able to perceive 4D power, and even the authors don't seem to understand that the difference between universal and universal+ is infinite). Goku's statement about defeating him with a Senzu seems to confirm that. While this doesn't affect Zamasu's tier, it's useful to mention this for later.


As I said before, Zamasu's tier is not the main post of this thread, and even if everything is debunked that would be irrelevant to the following point. The reason I'm trying to "downgrade" the characters is that I don't think we should scale everyone to him.


We currently do so due to Shin saying "He's different from anyone we have faced before. He's strong, plain and simple". However:

1. Scaling 30 characters (Goku, Vegeta, Kefla, Jiren, Toppo, the Grand Priest, 12 angels and 12 GoDs) to Zamasu due to a single statement that's not supported by feats should be avoided, and may look like favoritism.

2. Jiren himself was hurt by 17 (who also managed to block his attack by self-destructing), Hit and SSJB Vegeta, and knocked back by base Frieza and SJBKKx20 Goku (pre-limit break) who are all 3-A. If feats are more important than statements in this wiki it makes more sense to say that Shin's statement is inconsistent rather than say that all of these feats are incongruent with it.

3. Universe 9's kaioshin (who certainly knows Sidra better than we do) stated that Sidra wouldn't be able to erase Frieza easily, and even Sidra himself seemed scared of him. It wouldn't make sense if Sidra was infinite times stronger than Frieza, it's safer to assume that they're at least loosely comparable. This undermines the assumption that all GoDs are low 2-C.

4. Jiren didn't bother to block SSJ2 Goku's attacks, but he started reacting when he transformed into SSJ God. If the difference between them was truly infinite this wouldn't make sense and it looks like Goku closed a finite gap instead (albeit slightly).

5. As I said before, it's possible that the characters did not realize how strong Infinite Zamasu was, which means that the statement could simply refer to merged Zamasu (the 3-A one) as their strongest opponent.

6. The statement doesn't even necessarily mean that Jiren is the strongest enemy they ever fought. "He's different because it's strong, plain and simple" may just mean "He's different, because he doesn't need to rely on time stop, immortality etc. to kick our butts", which would be a comment on what kind of strength he has, not its magnitude.


In short, a single statement about Jiren being stronger than Zamasu is not enough proof to scale 30 characters to him, especially since DB is notorious for its incongruences and both Zamasu's feat and the statement seems to be contradictory with everything else. Even if everything gets debunked there's still not enough proof to confirm the low 2-C tier.

"At least 3-A, possibly low 2-C" would be a better fit. Angels and the Grand Priest should have a "possibly higher" after that. Zen'o is obviously still 2-C. Zamasu's tier is irrelevant to the others so I'm fine with whatever you decide, although I think that "At least 3-A, likely low 2-C, possibly 2-C over time" would be the most accurate.

P.S. I didn't mention the statement about shaking the world of void because I've read here that its infinite size may be a mistranslation ("eternal" darkness rather than "infinite)", although I'm not sure about that. It would make more sense in contest though, since Beerus had no reason to talk about the WoV's size, and it would explain his surprise (he was surprised because the world has always been like that, so he didn't expect the tournament to be held here).

P.P.S. I've followed the wiki for a while, but since I didn't have a fandom account I had to create one. Due to irl stuff I'm not sure if I'll be able to visit the forum in a while, but since I already stated all my points you can just reach a conclusion without me, I'll be fine with your decision.

P.P.P.S. I apologize if this post starts a shitstorm (which often happens when DB is involved), that wasn't my intention.

What a painful strike O_O . Firstly, we need someone, who's able to translate from Japanese to English.

@Firestrike You really didn't have to do that.

Honestly i'm just tired of seeing this tier resvisons for Dragonball which i thought would just end completely after 131.

Firestrike155 said:

Honestly i'm just tired of seeing this tier resvisons for Dragonball . which i though would just end compeltly after 131.

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Half of them these days are just jokes thread. But still, you have a point.

@Firestrike

that was extremely uncalled for and mean, if you don't agree with the OP then state why, if you don't like the thread you can ignore it, there's no reason to insult users like this

Can we not throw around insulting memes? I get that it is easy to do, and some of it can be funny, but doing it instantly and in a dismissive and condescending sense isn't really OK. I'll be deleting those; if you disagree say why. It should be pretty easy to debunk if you're able to throw dismissive memes at the thread so early.

What I want to know is how does this guy know so much on the tiering system, as well as how to add topics and all that jazz despite this being his first post.

@Glass he had been watching the wiki for a while before he created an account

Oh, well the the post was so long that I kinda skimmed through it.

But moving on i'll admit what i did was uncalled for and could have done something less rude to convey that i was tired of these threads but nevertheless to late to fix.

Interesting.

.

" a single statement about Jiren being stronger than Zamasu is not enough proof"

That's why we have multiple statements from multiple characters in the anime in multiple episodes with multiple supporting character reactions along with the promotional materials and extended previews of the final episodes.

1. Cell's best feat is Island level. We don't need just feats and feats alone. Reliable statements and powerscaling can also be used to rate people.

2. It is not "one single statement" like you keep insisting. It's that statement. Plus Vegeta's statement. Plus Goku's statement. Plus the fact that Beerus felt Infinite Zamasu's energy and thought little of it, whereas he practically crapped himself when he felt Jiren's supressed energy and was surprised one person could have so much power. Plus the fact that Whis only described Infinite Zamasu's ki as "tingly" yet was super impressed by Jiren and UI Goku's power. Plus the fact that the official promo called Jiren the mightiest foe in history.

3. If Supreme Kai says that Jiren is different from everyone else because he's strong, that obviously means Jiren is different from everyone since he's stronger than everyone else. He did not mean "Jiren may be infinity^infinity times weaker than Infinite Zamasu, but his strength is so much more impressive since he doesn't have immortality!" Occam's razor would not support this assumption.

4. You say it makes no sense for Sidra to be much stronger than Frieza and that they should be roughly comparable. Yet you're fine with an immortal kai being infinity^infinity times stronger than Grand Priest and every other Dragon Ball character besides Zeno fused together instead of saying that the god tiers of the series are at least roughly comparable to him?

5. Jiren was incredibly surpressed against SSG. His mere glare while not even showing a hint of his true strength deflected a SSBKKx20 Spirit Bomb. SSG isn't anywhere near Jiren's full, actual power. Same with Hit. Jiren was surpressed enough for only his effortless glare to deflect Hit's strongest attack. SSBE Vegeta is comparable to first impact UI, so him slightly stunning a, again surpressed, Jiren makes sense. 17's plot armor doesn't contradict how strong Jiren actually is.

So basically Jiren cannot be Low 2-C because when he is ridiculously surpressed to high hell 3-As can make him budge, a Low 2-C stunned him and a 3-A who had absolutely no business fighting him PIS'd his way into doing so? I'm sorry but I don't think those are good reasons.

6. Dragon Ball is an escalation shounen, and the most notorious one out there. Powerful characters become irrelevant over time. Anyone worth their salt made Frieza look like a sissy by the Cell Saga. Cell was nothing when Buu came along. Buu got blown out the water when all these guys from Super appeared. The same thing that ends up happening to every DB villain happened to Infinite Zamasu. I don't get why it's so hard for people to wrap their heads around this and why we need countless threads explaining why Jiren is stronger than Infinite Zamasu. This has been Dragon Ball's formula for decades.

I'm sorry, but I may have to prematurely hakai this thread ;-;

.-.

I should mention that 17 only did damage when Jiren either had his guard down or was severely exhausted.

The Everlasting said:

when Jiren either had his guard dow

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But Vados said that Jiren doesn't have the weakness of having his guard down ovo

I still kinda feel that Jiren having his guard automatically makes him infinitely weaker seems weird.

I thought High 3-A would fit but.. meh ._.

this is DB after all, they dont follow our rules

DB characters being weaker with their guard down has been a thing since forever (Remember the infamous laser level Goku?).

but that's PIS


I mean we shouldn't bring that up

inb4 we get Kakashi could fight Goku while his guard is down and kill him with a kunai >_>

It wasn't PIS. They explicitly said Goku let his guard down hence why the laser even did anything.

KInda late with that gif Landon

Still hoping Base Goku becomes At Least 3-A for helping Final Form Frieza vs Jiren in ep. 131

BlackeJan said:

Still hoping Base Goku becomes At Least 3-A for helping Final Form Frieza vs Jiren in ep. 131

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Golden Frieza has an "At least" rating. Not base Frieza, and base Goku doesn't scale to Golden GOAT.

Anyway, this thread------HAKAI

AKM sama said:

Golden Frieza has an "At least" rating. Not base Frieza, and base Goku doesn't scale to Golden GOAT.

Anyway, this thread------HAKAI

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oh but what tier wouldr Base Goku be after going through MULTIPLE zenkai's & helping Final Form Frieza vs Jiren in ep. 131?


P.S: you might want to change the keys to Tournament of Power (Post Limit-Breaking) to Tournament of Power (Golden Frieza/Post Limit-Breaking) since im pretty sure some people will get confused on which Frieza we are talking about

The OP isn't exactly wrong, however I personally think the characters are fine where they are, for right now.

The issue isn't so much that these feats and statements are inconsistent within the show, but that the logic of the show does not work within any other set of rules

For instance, Goku and Jiren shaking an infinite realm (the world of the void) is a High 3-A feat. This would logically require an infinite amount of energy. However, the difference between Goku and someone like Krillin isn't infinite within the show's setting. Goku can just do this because the imaginary numerical value assigned to his power is bigger. If Krillin's power was also at this imaginary value, he would be able to do this as well, yet he wouldn't be infinitely stronger than he was before within the rules of the show.

Does this make sense? No, not at all. But it's how Dragon Ball treats these things.

Based on what we know right now, Infinite Zamasu could still almost certainly kill anyone else in the setting not named Zen'o, but this isn't necessarily because his "number" is bigger. Having a larger imaginary value means you're stronger than someone else, and that's about it. Assuming he had merged with the entire future timeline, Zamasu could still easily kill Jiren when he was a helpless child, or destroy UI Goku by already existing at a point where Goku's UI had run its course and drained him of his energy. Zen'o is likely the only one he can't do anything to due to the fact he doesn't actually have a way to hurt him, as he's probably just too damn powerful over all at all times.

Despite this, all three of the characters above, including the two who Zamasu could pretty easily kill, would still be "stronger" than him.

We kinda just have to go with it, as it's what the show pushes on us.

I completely agree with what Azazoth said, although my conclusion is different.

Zamasu could be "stronger" than anyone else despite having less "power". I don't think he's stronger than the grand priest (which is why I said that we should put a "possibly higher" after "possibly low 2-C" for angels and him, as I wouldn't be surprised to see them performing a 2-C feat in the future), but Zamasu's tier comes from being physically infinite and 4D, which doesn't mean he's "stronger" in the classical sense. In fact, Zamasu's ki blasts probably don't have even infinite 3D power, much less 4D. To put it simply, fusing with the space-time doesn't scale to ki, which is why having higher ki than Zamasu doesn't necessarily mean being on an higher tier.

Furthermore, the difference between a 3-A and a low 2-C does not seem to be infinite in DB, which is why I opened this thread in the first place. Even if we assume that Goku can perform low 2-C feats by powerscaling (and I'm completely fine with that) he still has finite power, which means that any High 3-A whose power is actually proven to be infinite would technically stomp him anyway. In other words, DB characters are 3-A characters that can perform low 2-C feats because of how the show works, which doesn't mean that they have low 2-C power. Leaving both the 3-A and low 2-C tiers seems the most logical compromise between this wiki's rules and DB's in-verse rules. Either that or listing them as low 2-C with 3-A stats, which could be more accurate (even Infinite Zamasu's ki blasts seem to be 3-A by scaling from the previous himself, due to having the same soul as before, and the characters he didn't oneshot, which is also supported by Goku's statement) but seems pretty weird.

So basically....everyone on this site agrees that they should had already been Low 2-C....but they cant b/c....of the show.....

No doubt many upgrades are vague and not really trusted, like upgrading Jiren to low 2-C just because of one line form Shin who isn't the most trust worthy character of course, for all we know Infinite Zamaus may be able to stomp anyone in the verse not named Zeno, but the show is too vague and full of BS that doesn't support each other but thats DBS for you

I can see where you are coming form but many staff here support the DB wank, you are only wasting your time trying to reverse the verse back to 3-A\High 3-A, at this point we are just taking and upgrading whatever we like

It doesn't make sense for 17 to hurt Jiren so we keep him at 3-A, same for Buu who fought 3-A characters but stayed tier 4 and same for 18 who also fought tier 3 but stayed tier 4, Gohan with 2 days training can go from tier 4 to tier 3 because of muh hidden potential

It just mess

So since people agreed to not downgrade, case closed?

There's no doubt that DB is full of incongruences, what seems weird is that everything that would "downgrade" the verse is considered PIS, while everything that would upgrade it isn't.

It pains me to say so since he's one of my favorite villains, but personally I think we should just downgrade Zamasu. First of all, being omnipresent in a 4D space-time doesn't make you low 2-C, otherwise characters like BB would be High 3-A to low 2-C as well. Even if he became the space-time itself that would only scale to speed and durability, because he still attacks with 3D ki blasts that never showed 4D power at all. We could keep saying "But that's PIS, he should've killed Goku with those", but why is that PIS while his feat itself isn't? Becoming infinite times more powerful by dying certainly seems outlierish as well. It seems like everything that shows 3-A levels of power is just considered an incongruence while everything that implies low 2-C power is legit. If 17 doesn't scale to low 2-C because showing low 2-C feats in just that one episode is considered PIS, why does Zamasu? Doesn't it make more sense to assume that it's just an outlier, especially since his attacks were ineffective against 3-As? Of course, I'm not saying that the most common interpretation is wrong. What I'm saying is that either of them can be PIS, so both tiers are possibilities, but neither of them is certain (because of the inconsistence of the verse itself, especially powerscaling wise). We can't just find every possible excuse to justify the higher tier and label everything else as PIS/incongruent when the bs is on both sides.

Jiren was not upgraded to Low 2-C because of Shin's statement.

Heck Jiren and Goku were High 3-A till Jiren was stated multiple times in the show and by ads that he was the strongest foe in DB history

@Poinciana1971 Objectively false. Jiren was upgraded due to the ramifications of Shin's statement as well as "transcending time" and existing at a level comparable to the GoD's, who likely already scale to Infinite Zamasu. The "mightiest foe in DB history" thing as well as UIS being confirmed to be likely > Beerus by Herms' translations definitely corroborates this, but is not the main reason why.

Fiction doesn't care about real world science. This tiering system is based on real world science which most works of fiction do not use. It's that simple. We try to make sense of the show's power levels according to our tiering system.

DB and most fiction don't treat the gap between 3-A, High 3-A and Low 2-C as infinite. And applying a real life standard to all fiction is something I don't think is correct. That's why I like the OBD's tiering system more as it is more flexible.

In DB, being a certain finite amount stronger than a 3-A makes you Low 2-C. It's that simple. In which case, any High 3-A whose power is proven to be infinite will get stomped by Goku because it doesn't matter if the PL of that character is infinite, according to DB, Goku needs a finite PL to be stronger than a High 3-A of another verse.

And applying your logic of "infinite", I can also say that Kid Goku is infinitely stronger than Farmer with shotgun because between 5 and 10, there are infinite numbers i.e. 5.1, 5.11, 5.111 ... so by this logic of infinite we should get High 3-A Kid Goku?

And I seriously think there should be a discussion rule against this Jiren/IZ thing. It's getting really repetitive.

High Universe level: Characters who have an infinite degree of 3-dimensional power. Alternately 4-dimensional power that is shown as completely qualitatively superior to 3-Dimensional beings, but is less than universal in scale. Or that allows them to create large parts of a universal continuum. Take note that 4-D power should logically always be superior to countably infinite 3-D power, so characters within this tier are not necessarily comparable. Also take note that we consider most small scale time-space abilities as hax, not as AP. Tier 2: Multiversal 2-C: Low Multiverse level This category is separated in the following manner:

Universe level+: ("Low 2-C") This is for characters who can destroy and/or create the entire 4-dimensional space-time of a single universe, not just the physical matter within one. For example, an entire timeline.


Zamasu never FULLY became one with the universe timeline. He should be High 3-A, and eventually Low 2-C.