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Major Medaka Box Revisions: The Sequel

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@Matthew Schroeder

So, you are saying many characters on VS Battle that haven't shown actual feats and yet still get into certain tiers because of scaling is acceptable?

However, when a certain character has an ability to that can be demonstrated but due to the purpose of the story is unable to do so is not allowed to get into a certain tier is unacceptable?
 
Okay, let me explain my point:

1) Medaka's Create a Universe skill.

Firstly, it is important to clarify what counts as something being shown here. For something to count as shown or proven, it has to happen, preferably on-scree. Why are Goku and Beerus Universal? Because they almost destroyed the universe. Why is Flash Massively FTL+? Because he's ran at these speeds. Why is Palpatine a Mind Hax monsters? Because he's been shown to mind-hax Planetary to Galactic amounts of minds.

In the case of Medaka Box's ability lists, I absolutely understand that they are meant to be real within the story, but they are not applicable for a VsWiki context. The abilities are often incredibly exaggerated and hyperbolic, such Najimi having abilities such as "Become God", "Transcend Dimensions", etc.

And they are not accepted as valid. Why? Because they've never been shown on-screen. We just gained their names on a spread-list of hundreds of abilities, each more absurd than the last, as something to make fun of OP characters.

The "Create a Universe" skill from Medaka is much the same thing. It is never properly shown, and it is literal lightyears ahead of anything Medaka's demonstrably proven to have.

2) The All Fiction Statement.

I have already explained myself over and over. And once again, I don't doubt that the statement was meant to be taken as true, but for a VsWiki authorial intent is constantly ignored in favor of feats and statements. And in the case of this statement, how about I use a metaphor.

Picture Dragon Ball. Now, imagine that the highest destructive feat in the series is Piccolo City Busting. And then they introduce Beerus out of the bloom and say that he can destroy entire universes. But they just say it once and he never destroys even a planet.

Would we accept it? No we wouldn't. We would never accept a statement in these conditions. We accept statements when they are either repeated to exhaustion, or proven, or consistent with feats.
 
I agree with Matt

Plus in context she used the Universe Create skill to beat her step brother in the last few chapters of the manga when she was leaving the academy and everyone threw a farewell party for her.
 
@ Matt

Valid arguments.

Thank you for addressing my point, and now that you put it that way, I agree.

I still think the possibly route is best, but I will no longer belabor the point. Do as you will, I've said everything I can.
 
I agree with Matt on this. Here's my opinions regarding this post:-

1) Statements without any showings or feats should not be taken seriously especially in a Metafictional parody like Medaka Box. Otherwise we'd have Low 2-C Neo Acacia.

2) Regarding the Hero, it seems to be just Plot Armor. So Passive Plot Manipulation is okay and only Iihiko and Medaka should have that.

3) I 100% agree
 
Matthew Schroeder said:
She has never shown the ability to create a Universe, thus it is invalid.
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Goku has never shown the ablity to destroy the universe, this he should be downgraded.

Cell has never shown the ablity to destroy a solr system, thus he should he downgraded.

Cthulhu Mythos in general.
 
Goku was literally destroying a universe with Beerus and directly fought people with universal feats.

Cell scales upwards to much weaker characters who are at least Small Star level and his statement is in every single source.

Cthulhu Mythos read the blog.
 
Wait when did we see Goku and Beerus nearly destroy the universe?

GOING OFF OF VISUALS ALONE:They sent there ki across the entire macrocasum, and destroyed like a star a few lightyears away

That would be solar system MFTL+ feat.
 
They would destroy the whole universe in six punches. Did you watch the episode? Your bias is blatant. And don't derail this thread.
 
Matthew Schroeder said:
Snip
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The only universal feat in db would be shaking the void, and Zamasu.

Regardless, these would be descriptions of fights/events, like Medekas universe creating skill towards that dude whos name i forgot.

The diffrence between small star and solar system is 10,000× if i recall correctly. And again, just statements.

Not really gomna debate on Mythos, as ive just started getting into it, but i ak aware that its a heavily statement based series.
 
Matthew Schroeder said:
They would destroy the whole universe in six punches. Did you watch the episode? Your bias is blatant. And don't derail this thread.
Click to expand...
I agree with 2C Goku, and pretty much agree wuth the wiki on db.

Im just pointing out that ignoring author intent and statements would severly downgrade db.
 
Anyways, I guess I'll reiterate my opnion.

I would rate them Unknown, possibly universal (It was stated that she created a universe. However, since she comes from a metafictional parody manga, it is uncertain whether or not this should be taken seriously) for medeka, and a similar description for the rest of the characters being discussed.
 
Whatever the decision ends up being. I just want to make sure any future vs threads that may contain said Medaka Box Character against another character that happens to be a higher tier should not be immediately closed as a stomp in favor to the character of a higher tier especially since the final decisions were made in Thread:1087383 to show unless a certain character has particular hax resistance they aren't guaranteed victory.

So any hax character of a low tier in from any verse are allowed the chance to have the fight against a higher tier character.
 
Hm. You know what Matt, that is fairly reasonable. I guess its just a policy thing. Really here is my main issue:

The only reason I am so adament about this is because the VS threads with these characters get closed for immediately being assumed stomps before any argument can be made within the threads, due to the 'unknown' rating. As far as I understood it, hax characters will generally have Unknown as statistics for abilities that bypass durability or attack, but a stomp was not assumed because of it. Here is the real question, and depending on the answer I will decide to argue against the statements not being viable enough or take this and we can move on to another issue:

Is it the wiki's policy to assume stomp matches from Unknown statistics based on hax or should threads remain open to discussion long enough for the level of hax to be argued in each specific match?

Really so long as it is the latter we should not have any problems. I was essentially forced into Part 1 of these upgrades just so I could get a fun match done without getting my thread closed
 
On a seperate note, I think that "The Hero" should be out down as Passive Plot Manipulation, as most agree, but that passive PIS inducement should also listed

However, I would also like to propose that a restriction be put on "The Hero" unless the enemy characters are able to counter it or have a similar ability. What do you all think?
 
IMO "The Hero" is just plot armor, aka a character created by the author who would be undefeated in his or her own story due to being protected by the Author. Like Ajimu stated she cannot be beat Medaka no matter what because she's the main character in the story. A similar vibe is felt from Saitama where he is seemingly unbeatable in his verse due to plot armor. If Saitama fights, say, Fate/Extra CCC Gilgamesh in a VS B match, Saitama would get utterly demolished because his plot armor goes out of the window since the Author 'One' isn't creating the match up but we are. However, if Gilgamesh were to be introduced in OPM series by 'one' as a villain and opponent to Saitama, his haxes won't affect Saitama and he'd get One Punched to Oblivion by Saitama. Why? Because of plot armor from the author.

So what I'm trying to say is that "The Hero" should'nt apply in VS Matches against Characters from other verses as even tho it's Passive Plot Manipulation/PIS Inducement, at the end of the day it's still Plot Armor created by the Author to serve as a plot point for his verse. If people agree with allowing this then many characters with Plot Armor should be allowed too in VS Matches against characters from other verses
 
Except in Medaka Box, being "The Hero" is an in universe power/status and explanation, whereas in OPM, Saitama beating everything is just because "he's really strong".

What happens in universe is what matters, not real life authors writing someone to win.
 
I agree with Matthew. We should preferably just focus on adding passive plot manipulation to Medaka and Iihiko (possibly a link to the plot-induced stupidity page as well), and perhaps find better character images. Then we can close this thread.
 
Antvasima said:
I agree with Matthew. We should preferably just focus on adding passive plot manipulation to Medaka and Iihiko (possibly a link to the plot-induced stupidity page as well), and perhaps find better character images. Then we can close this thread.
Click to expand...
I agree with this as well. I always have my 2-C headcanon profiles, after all OvO.
 
Antvasima said:
I agree with Matthew. We should preferably just focus on adding passive plot manipulation to Medaka and Iihiko (possibly a link to the plot-induced stupidity page as well), and perhaps find better character images. Then we can close this thread.
Click to expand...
Alright, tho it definitly does need to be addressed at some point on another thread what the policy is on what I mentioned above. It kinda is a pressing issue, since its what forced this whole thing and cuts out many possible matches
 
Monarch Laciel said:
Except in Medaka Box, being "The Hero" is an in universe power/status and explanation, whereas in OPM, Saitama beating everything is just because "he's really strong".

What happens in universe is what matters, not real life authors writing someone to win.
Click to expand...
Except Ajimu's fourth wall breaking dialogues indicate that "The Hero" is just plot armor and this is most likely the case considering the genre of the verse itself is a Metafictional parody manga. And OPM too Is a parody manga that has some plot armor. Saitama beating everything isn't because "he's really strong", it's because he has plot armor too. Even in the last chapter aka ch. 134 of the manga, Dr. Genus's convo with Zombieman confirm that Saitama was completely a normal human and doing only his regular training of "100 push-ups, situps and squat" he became a tier 5-B lvl being who effortlessly beats everyone in fights without even getting injured. Even by fictional logic it isn't possible unless it's a gag/parody manga with plot armored Characters.

I do agree that the hero is passive plot manip/PIS, but what I'm saying is how is it gonna be combat applicable to VS B matches in here?
 
I can edit to add the Passive Plot manipulation tmrw when I get up, and the PIS inducement if we agree on it, to the Power and Abilities Section

I can also give a brief description of the nature of "The Hero" is in the notable abilities section. We should also discuss if we are going to apply a restriction on it, and what the wording of that would be
 
Well since we are on the topic of Upgrades, I want to add that Iihiko should get Resistances to :- Causality Manipulation, Heat Manipulation, Ice Manipulation, Electricity Manipulation, Memory Manipulation, Damage Reflection, Power Nullification because of this:
Screenshot 20180227-131358
 
At this point, I agree with Matthew, if we're accepting statements as true in-verse but just don't take them into account for policy reasons I have nothing more to say, and tbh I'm already happy that we're accepting passive plot armor for Medaka and Iihiko.

In that regard, should we also give it to Zenkichi? I know that his case is different as he never showed that level of "plot armor", but he managed to defeat Iihiko "because that was his role" while stronger style users failed even using the same power. Maybe "possibly minor passive (oh god look at all those adjectives) plot manipulation" or something?

I'm not sure about giving Iihiko lots of resistances, since he resisted due to being "the hero". Giving him resistance to those skills may sound like any other skill would affect him, but it doesn't really work like that. Maybe it's better to simply clarify that his passive plot armor makes him immune to hax too or something like that.
 
Kami95 said:
In that regard, should we also give it to Zenkichi? I know that his case is different as he never showed that level of "plot armor", but he managed to defeat Iihiko "because that was his role" while stronger style users failed even using the same power. Maybe "possibly minor passive (oh god look at all those adjectives) plot manipulation" or something?

I'm not sure about giving Iihiko lots of resistances, since he resisted due to being "the hero". Giving him resistance to those skills may sound like any other skill would affect him, but it doesn't really work like that. Maybe it's better to simply clarify that his passive plot armor makes him immune to hax too or something like that.
Click to expand...
Zenkichi's Devil Style nullifies his abilities that come with his status. He defeated Iihiko because he is the perfect character for defeating "Heroes," Ajimu made this clear. He had the perfect cocktail of powers to counter every one of Iihiko's abilites.

1) Iihiko has "The Hero," Zenkichi has Devil Style. And if Iihiko were to ever break Devil Style, then Zenkichi's Hero status kicks in

2) Iihiko has his defensive hax, and Zenkichi has his style that can reach the unreachable.

3) Iihiko is far physically superior, but Zenkichi has odds reversal to flip that on its head

Iihiko was resisting them due to his built in hax. His plot armor is only defense against Ajimu's skills which his hax would likely only be able to repel with plot armor
 
I added The Hero to Medaka and Iihiko's profile. I'll type up a draft for the note for Medaka's profile and y'all can give your opinion on it
 
You shouldn't call it "The Hero", just Plot-Induced Stupidity and passive Plot Manipulation.
 
I know that Zenkichi was the perfect counter to Iihiko. However, he's also a main character and Anshin'in did all she could to make him more of a protagonist than Medaka. Devil's Style counters that (not sure if entirely or not) but that doesn't mean that he doesn't have a protagonist status. Personally I would add "possibly minor passive Plot Manipulation and PIS inducement (hovever, due to Devil's Style this ability is negated)". It wouldn't change anything in vs threads (unless the opponents erases Devil's Style), it's just for listing purposes. But since he never showed anything comparable to Medaka and Iihiko, I understand if it gets rejected.
 
Never mind. I suppose that "The Hero" is fine. Since the edits have been performed, should we close this thread, and re-lock the Medaka Box profiles?
 
If everyone disagrees with giving Zenkichi "The Hero" then yes, I think we're done with the upgrades. There's still the public image thing though.
 
Note 2: Be warry when using "The Hero" in VS Threads. Unless her opponent has some way to counter it or has other plot based abilities, it should likely be disabled for that match. The nature of the ability has the potential to allow those with the status to win against characters they would otherwise have no feasible way to win against, if the match would be inconclusive due to Medaka being carried by "The Hero" alone to make up for a stat difference, then those matches are unadvised. Matches with "The Hero" turned off may still be added to the profile without issue
 
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