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A Ton of Devilman Problems

WeeklyBattles

WeeklyBattles

VS Battles
Retired
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14,693
Okay, so there's a lot of problems with his page.

1. His base form is Building level and Hypersonic with no justifications whatsoever

2. His High 6-A stat has no calc to back it up, and the current feat is referring to damage that took place over the course of 20 years instead of as a single attack

3. He is Sub-Relativistic for a feat with no calc or even a timeframe

4. He is 5-B for what amounts to a feat of hax and range, not AP

Not, MrKingOfNegativity has stated that Devilman has shaken the entirety of Hell with his punches and did this to the Earth, and Arekusuripa stated that he can reduce a mountain to ash with a single attack, so if those can be calced, the profile can be adjusted accordingly.
 
WeeklyBattles said:
Okay, so there's a lot of problems with his page.
1. His base form is Building level and Hypersonic with no justifications whatsoever

2. His High 6-A stat has no calc to back it up, and the current feat is referring to damage that took place over the course of 20 years instead of as a single attack

3. He is Sub-Relativistic for a feat with no calc or even a timeframe

4. He is 5-B for what amounts to a feat of hax and range, not AP

Not, MrKingOfNegativity has stated that Devilman has shaken the entirety of Hell with his punches and did this to the Earth, and Arekusuripa stated that he can reduce a mountain to ash with a single attack, so if those can be calced, the profile can be adjusted accordingly.
Click to expand...
ðíorrection: not single attack just casuall attack, as a consequence of the his last battle with Satan. And I have to say: most of the destruction of the Earth's surface were made in the final battle, between Satan and Devilman, while most of the troops of both side were ruthlessly destroyed by the consequences of their fight with each other.
 
Do you have a scan of the attack?

And thats still damage over time, so its still unquantifiable.
 
So I remembered something just a moment ago.

For one, the thing about Devilman that makes things about him...weird, is the fact that there are multiple iterations of him that are part of the same canon, but exist in different AUs/timelines. (It's complicated...)

But the more important thing is, the timeline which shows Amon's best feats (including the one I posted a scan of) has a fairly in-depth respect thread which was made about it a good long time ago. I dunno how accurate the ratings themselves are, but the feats are as real as I remember.

Some highlights include:

  • The aformentioned feat of melting the surface of the planet. This is actually an ability he has that more or less boils down to 'turning things into a liquid-paste form with nothing but his aura', and it works on everything from guns, people and other demons to towns, cities, Egyptian pyramids and (when he's at his full power) the entire planet's surface.
  • The aforementioned Atlantic Ocean feat. To answer the question about how many nukes are seen, the answer is simply 'too many', as every frame which shows the warheads effectively fills the panel with them. And the reason we in know for a fact that it's the Atlantic Ocean specifically is because, once the ocean is vaporized in its entirely, we actually see the city of Atlantis at the ocean's floor.
    • Another demon tanked the same blast with zero injury, and Amon proceeded to punch him hard enough to deal serious damage to him.
    • Also of note here is that this universe's Atlantis was actually a country, and an immediate character statement tells us that Amon sank it himself.
  • The feat of flying towards the Earth from space. It shows him crossing a fairly massive distance in only two panels.
  • Numerous feats of blocking laser weaponry on-reaction using telekinetic barriers.
Also, I remembered that the shaking of Hell comes from the Devilman Lady manga, but my memory's starting to grow fuzzy on whether or not he did it directly or caused it through some other non-stat-related means. If he did, however, I'm pretty sure Hell was portrayed as particularly vast in size in that timeline.

The main problem is that the character's power fluctuates massively across each of these iterations. The original was a Tier 8 at best who later showed Tier 7 capabilities (I remember a feat which I'm trying to locate now), Devilman Lady's incarnation was somewhat stronger, Amon in 'The Darkside of the Devilman' was easily Tier 6, and then there's Devilman Grimoire, which I haven't even had the chance to read yet...
 
@King Thats great and all but in order to calc this stuff we need actual scans of it.

- The melting itself appears to have happened over time, but a short and consistent enuough time to likely still be viable

- That would likely be a tier 7 feat at best

- That could possibly be a viable feat but im not entirely sure, im not too familiar with sinking feats

- This is going to require a scan

- Lasers in fiction vary drastically in speed. Them just being lasers doesnt give them a set speed.

- Even if Hell were planet sized it would only be a 6-C feat at best
 
I linked the respect thread in the comment. It has all of the scans you'd need.
 
No worries.

But again, our main problem is that we're treating all of these incarnations of the character as being the same even though they're wildly inconsistent in terms of power. We need keys for each one, not a massive composite profile trying to cram them all together into one entity. The canon itself doesn't work that way.
 
Also looking through that thread, the space flying speed and melting feats seem calcable, feel free to put a request in the calc request thread
 
Well, from what I remember, there are numerous incarnations of this character. The original manga incarnation, Devilman Lady's incarnation, Amon in DSotD, and Devilman Grimoire's incarnation are the ones I know of offhand. A few like the Violence Jack and Shin Violence Jack versions are non-canon IIRC, but I haven't followed Go Nagai's catalogue in years, and the state of what's canon/non-canon in the franchise (which, again, has multiple timelines) is a ******* confusing thing if you're a newcomer.

We need a baseline for each version of the character. At least one feat from each manga which firmly establishes their tiers. We can build from there, but trying to locate every feat for every version of Devilman will take us far too much time to do at once.
 
I am obviously fine with if WeeklyBattles wants to improve upon the page.
 
I'll message TheEverlasting about this as well, he's somewhat familiar with the series and he can likely help us get this sorted out
 
Arekusuripa said:
But Akira confirme in Devilman Lady that he's save memory about past life.
Click to expand...
He keeps the memories, yes, but his powers vary drastically. In the original, he could perform low-superhuman feats and took 20 years just to level the surface of the world. Meanwhile in DSotD, Amon sank a country and melted the entire surface of the world like it was nothing. Beyond that, even if he's the same person in each timeline, the fact that he gets stronger and weaker depending on the timeline means that we need to separate these versions into their own keys.
 
MrKingOfNegativity said:
He keeps the memories, yes, but his powers vary drastically. In the original, he could level small cities by himself, but took 20 years just to level the surface of the world. Meanwhile in DSotD, Amon sank a country and melted the entire surface of a world. Beyond that, even if he's the same person in each timeline, the fact that he gets stronger and weaker depending on the timeline means that we need to separate these versions into their own keys.
Click to expand...
Sounds reasonable, in that case, you should divide them by the stories:

Demon Knight, Devilman, Shin Devilman, Devilman Lady, Amon: The Darkside of Devilman, Neo Devilman, Devilman vs. Hades, Devilman Grimoire, Devilman Saga, Devilman Crybaby
 
Christ, yeah. That sounds about right. Good God, I forgot how many of these things were made...

Oh, also. I found the feat I was looking for. Original!Devilma created an explosion which encompassed most of a city. There're two scans from another really messy respect thread I found.

Moderate NSFW warning

No need for a warning here

Those hazy-looking structures at the edge of the explosion are skyscrapers.

EDIT: This wasn't the original. It was a later incarnation. Sorry...
 
Would it be easier to seperate them into seperate pages entirely to avoid confusion?
 
Actually, yeah. That's probably a whole lot better than keeping them in one page. Especially since a number of them are alt-timelines of the exact same story-arc.
 
WeeklyBattles said:
Would it be easier to seperate them into seperate pages entirely to avoid confusion?
Click to expand...
...or simple to put different keys for different stories, because many set in one sequence.
 
If we try to fit all of those stories into keys on one profile, it's going to be the most massive profile on the wiki.

Better idea to just separate them into new pages entirely.
 
MrKingOfNegativity said:
If we try to fit all of those stories into keys on one profile, it's going to be the most massive profile on the wiki.
Better idea to just separate them into new pages entirely.
Click to expand...
Go Nagai's story set in one continuation, with time loop and warping reality.
 
Only scans from Darkside of the Devilman are in that thread I linked, by the way. It doesn't cover any of the other iterations outside of that one.

There are a ton of scans in other respect threads I know of, but one of those is completely unorganized and the other only covers the original version of the character.
 
Arekusuripa said:
Go Nagai's story set in one continuation, with time loop and warping reality.
Click to expand...
I know this. But the versions themselves are much different from each other in terms of stats, and the continuity itself resets and changes with each iteration.

I'd liken this case to how we treat Marvel and DC characters. They have so many different iterations that we can't possibly fit them into one profile. So we don't.
 
Also, I misfired earlier. The city-busting feat I linked isn't from the original. It comes from some later iteration in the franchise.

This thread has just about all of the feats from the original manga. It's as thorough and well-sourced as a ComicVine respect thread is ever going to get, so we can use it for whatever profile centers around the character's first appearance.

This is the weakest version of the character.
 
It's going to be a major pain in the ass.

But, even in saying that, I'm up for it if it means we have better and more functional profiles for his characters.
 
Thank you to everybody for helping out.
 
No problem.

I read up and saw the bit about Ever knowing something about this franchise. I think he's working on other revisions, but if we can get him to help us, I believe our chances at pulling this off will be that much more solid.
 
NSFW Respect Threads:

Akira: About his feats in human persona.

Devilman: His feats in general. [Has a Sub-Relativistic feat from quickly returning to earth from space, ODB calced his Neo DEBIRUMAN Explosion 4 at Country level. (60.5 teratons) and has a 5-B hax feat like Satan]

At the end Satan separated after reincarnation Devilman/Akira in:

Violence Jack, Lady and Kid Jack.

Complete Devilman: This Devilman is the merge of all Jack's, which easily defeated Satan [Who fought evenly with EOS Devilman and Reality Warped Devilman Earth into Violence Jack Earth] and Xenom.

Note: Devilman needs other renders.
 
Dark649 said:
At the end Satan separated after reincarnation Devilman/Akira in:
Violence Jack, Lady and Kid Jack.

Complete Devilman: This Devilman is the merge of all Jack's, which easily defeated Satan [Who fought evenly with EOS Devilman and Reality Warped Devilman Earth into Violence Jack Earth] and Xenom.

Note: Devilman needs other renders.
Click to expand...
I almost forgot that this Devilman defeated full power Satan and Zenon only ONE HAND!
 
The problem with the Devilman respect thread (which is actually the "messy" one I mentioned earlier) it that it doesn't tell us which feats come from where. There are Tier 9-8 feats from the older itierations mixed with with Tier 7 and Tier 6 feats from the later manga installments. (Some of the latter are even casual feats)

It also attaches the wrong context to some of them. The feat of how he 'broke the Moon' for example appears wrong; it just looks like a shading technique that shows most of said Moon in shadow. The Violence Jack respect thread has a similar problem with some of its feats; a few of the visuals don't match up with the thread's descriptions of them.

This'll probably sound like a lot of work, but we're better off sourcing most of the more important feats ourselves. That way we'll know which versions of the character did what, as well as know their full context.
 
That's true, Devilman has so many counterpart with different feats, so canonicity could be a problem.
 
Pretty much. Weekly effectively compared it to the Godzilla situation when I talked to him about it, and I consider it almost identical to the problem we have with Marvel/DC characters who span multiple iterations. It's better for us if we separate them into pages based around each individual counterpart.

Which is going to take a fair amount of time and a lot of reading, I know, but it's what's going to net us the best results as far as this goes. Like I said before, we just need to start off by finding one or two good baseline feats for each version of the character. Then we can build from there. (We should be covered as far as the original series and The Darkside of Devilman are concerned)
 
We'll probably have to, yes.

Anywho, I'm going to track down Devilman Lady and Devilman Saga. I remember DMLady being comparatively short, and I'm thinking Saga will be the same. I'll probably make profiles from whatever I find in those.

It'll probably take a bit of time, since I'm in the process of compiling another fairly hefty revision at the same time as this one. But I'll get through it.
 
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