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Some Arceus revisions (and some thing(s) for the CT/LT)

The_real_cal_howard

The_real_cal_howard

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Well, aside from the fact that the coalesced nothingness and therefore Mid Godly regen thing needs to be further discussed, there were a few more things.

1) What I said above. The regen. That or Type 8 immortality via reliance on it. Or at least Abstract Existence via being literal nothingness. Bottom line, Arceus being a "physical" void that fused with itself should allow it to have some form of ability to bring itself back from it. Like trying to kill a being made of water more water, trying to put Arceus to nothingness should have the same futility. And us not giving abstract existence to the Creation Trio's true forms was a bit inane, given that we fully accept that they are the concepts of time and space and antimatter incarnate. Looking at the definition and who has said ability, why they don't apply is beyond me. However, this one I'm willing to drop if need be (the point on AE for the CT, not the void stuff)

2) Immunity to matter manipulation, and resistance to void manipulation. A void isn't made of matter, and even if Arceus wasn't a void, he still predates matter and isn't made of it, along with the CT, and debatably the LT. Resistance to void manipulation is again, because he's a void with awareness.

3) Conceptual destruction. If we say that Arceus made the concepts and laws of the world, gave some of them physical forms and awareness in Palkia, Dialga, Giratina, Uxie, Azelf, and Mesprit (and the types, but there a non-factor, and can subsequently beat the s*** out of them, why is it too much to say that he can kill them? Unless we're saying that he can't unmake the two Trios...

4) Give Arceus all the abilities of the CT and LT that we didn't yet. They are confirmed to be aspects of him rather than just creations. No different than the Chaos King and Oblivion.

5) I'm not sure about what this is, but it goes for all four of the big ones, or at least Giratina and Arceus. See, Giratina was stated to have the capacity to distort the theory of the world. Emphasis on theory. This seems different than basic reality warping, as theory is more intertwined with concepts of ideas. I don't know if that's conceptual manipulation, law manipulation, or information manipulation. Or maybe it is just reality warping.

6) Maybe push Giratina higher than the other two, rather than an equal. In the Generations episode starring them, Giratina was able to break the Red Chains, which was visibly restraining Palkia and Dialga, with a single Shadow Ball to each. Giratina also apparently beat both of them in Adventures.

7) Somethig simple. Resistance (well, immunity, but...you know) to poison and acid manipulation for Dialga and Arceus. Typing for Dialga, and Arceus via Iron Plate. While I'm at it, Arceus should be immune to paralysis, spores/powders, and getting burned via the Zap/Earth Plate, Meadow Plate, and Flame Plate respectively. And the Pixie Plate should render attacks from dragons null as well. Lmk if I missed any.

8) Z Crystals also change Arceus' types, so maybe add them to standard equipment? If so, the Arceus should also have the ability to create black holes via the Dark one (Black Hole Eclipse), and AZ attacks via the Ice one (Subzero Slammer). Actually, should ice Pokémon (well, all Pokémon, but I'm not that picky) resist AZ, since they can survive this? I'm not so sure, given that Sheer Cold is still an OHKO. If anything, I'm doubtful.

9) Note: Even I don't agree with this. I just thought I should bring it up. Apparently, researchers found technology they believe to from beyond time. Which implies that there's a civilization beyond time, hence 4-D. Which would also imply that Arceus and co. transcend them as well, making them 5-D instead of 4-D. Again, this is very speculative, and only like, <5% of me has any faith in it. Just thought it would be something nice to mention. Even in the lore itself, this is highly debated upon by researchers. If somehow accepted, it'd be no more than a possibly. Not even likely.
 
2. Predating Matter doesn't instant give you immunity to matter manip. He'd need to transcend the concept of matter for it. And proof for Arceus not being made out of matter?

3. P r o o f s

4. Where tho? Just curious, where

5. Waaaay too vague
 
Actually now that I think about it, why hasn't Arceus ever gotten the types of just the actual pokemon types upon becoming them? For example

If Arceus becomes a psychic type he should have mind manipulating right there. And it can upscaled to a large degree above any pokemon, even Mewtwo.

Not that this would be at all impressive in his tier, but I wanted to bring this up.

For now im neutral so I can see what others say.
 
1. Cal, bruh, just drop it already. Absolutely nothing in the text implies that Arceus is made of nothingness, just that his egg appeared out of nothingness.
 
Changing types only makes Arceus defensively said type though. He doesn't gain sudden psychic type moves upon becoming psychic type (Not counting judgement)
 
The Everlasting said:
1. Cal, bruh, just drop it already. Absolutely nothing in the text implies that Arceus is made of nothingness, just that his egg appeared out of nothingness.
Click to expand...
Ever, I love ya. You my bro forever. I trust ya with a lot of things, and find you a really close friend. But no, I don't agree, and believe you're wrong on this. Arceus egg was formed from nothingness, where it was becoming one with itself. Common sense. @Saik, same for the conceptual destruction. Common sense.
 
Never implied, though. It was just (Paraphrasing here) "at the heart of the chaos, where all things became one, appeared an egg". That's it.
 
Saikou The Lewd King said:
Changing types only makes Arceus defensively said type though. He doesn't gain sudden psychic type moves upon becoming psychic type (Not counting judgement)
Click to expand...
Maybe but pokemon are able to gain the [insert here] manipulation based on them just having the attribute itself too, not just from actual moves. A pikachu will be able to still manipulate electricity without needing thunderbolt. Same thing with a charmander and flame thrower.

In addition, iirc, Arceus in the manga was able to legitimately use the power of pokemon attributes through the plates, not just defensively. But i'd probably need to recheck that to be 100% sure.
 
Because Pikachus generally manipulate electricity.

And most Pokémon have attacks of their own types.

There is a reason why I didn't add Ice Manip to Delibird at first
 
The Everlasting said:
Never implied, though. It was just (Paraphrasing here) "at the heart of the chaos, where all things became one, appeared an egg". That's it.
Click to expand...
Yes, but what was that "all" again? Nothing. Now replace words. At the heart of nothing, where nothing became one, an egg appeared. What could that egg be made of, if it was formed in where nothing was becoming more nothing? There was no concept of space, so we can't say that it wasn't at the exact point where everything was fusing.

Take a bunch of snow, and crush it into itself. The resultant, regardless of the form, is still snow. The resultant is Arceus, and snow is the primordial chaos in this analogy.
 
@Saikou

I see. Well I don't want to stem further from the actual topic so whether it gets accepted or not I'll just make a separate post at another time so we can focus on this.
 
"What could that egg be made of, if it was formed in where nothing was becoming more nothing?"

Do you even know how common it is in fiction for objects/entities to spontaneously appear out of nothingness? By the logic you're presenting, every creator god has Mid-Godly Regenerationn.
 
Again, that nothingness isn't said to fuse with itself continuously. If Arceus was said to just appear out of nothing, then I would've never brought this up.
 
When was that stated, though?

In fact, if we're treating it as nothingness, it's probably just prose. If there's literally nothing, what is there to become one with?
 
"at the heart of the chaos, where all things became one, appeared an egg"


The way the sentence is structured implies that all things that were nothing had become "one" (this "one" being different from the egg) which means the egg that appears after the event can't be part of the nothingness that had already become one.
 
it was stated that "The powers of Plates are shared among Pokémon.", so, shouldn't arceus have all abilities of every pokemon ?
 
@Over

It was basically said that all pokémon and humans are part of the same presence in a few lines of dialogue that are unblocked after Arceus is obtained in D/P/Pt.

But it is better not to open the Pandora's box...
 
Agreed. We should try to stay on topic first before we talk about any thing else. The dinner plate has more than enough food to eat as it stands.
 
I agree with Giratina being stronger than Dialga and Palkia. It being equal to both comes from a single statement in the game, and in said game it literally pushed them backwards through sheer force of will.
 
1) From the Abstract Existence page:

"This term means that a certain character is an immaterial embodiment of a fundamental abstract concept, and is able to regenerate as long as the concept itself continues to exist.

It should be noted that simply being representative of a concept does not qualify a character for this ability, as it only applies to the ones that fulfill the above requirements."

When was it stated or shown that you must destroy the thing that they embody in order to kill the members of the CT?

3) As I said above, do you even need to destroy their concept to kill them? Embodying something =/= being immortal as long as said something exists. It could be "When the character dies the thing that they embody dies along with them". It makes sense when you consider that space/time expand/flow because of Palkia's/Dialga's body functions.

4) 6) 7) Ok

5) 9) Too vague

8) Yes to the standard equipment and abilities thing, no to AZ resistance for every ice Pokemon. Actually is Subzero Slammer AZ?

No real opinion about the other things.
 
Well, ice type pokémon are immune to Sheer Cold...

By the way, soul manipulation has not yet been added to creation trio
 
Also if we add Z-Crystals for Arceus's equipment he'd also get something like Bloom Doom which iirc makes an entire pocket dimension to fool around with the opponent in. Kinda fitting for a llama ovo
 
Because "distorting the theory of the world" could mean conceptual manip, law manip, physics manip, math manip, pick one. I'd just call it reality warping
 
Hmm I see. Well we could either just go with what it sounds like the best with a possibly or just reality warping.

Tho, shouldnt the CT be able to at least destroy stuff on a spiritual and mental level with their presence alone? USUM gives us a confirmation that Cyrus comes from a universe where he completed his goal of wiping out the Lake Trio's "spirit". And Dialga/Palkia were doing that feat just by being on spear pillar.
 
Depends. For example, if killing the members of the Lake Trio was enough to do that, Dialga and Palkia wouldn't need to destroy minds and spirits by themselves.

Basically the same thing as #1 and #3
 
The destruction of the Lake Trio is never mentioned in the games.

"... ... Everything is ready for the creation of a new world. Now, all will end. And everything will begin. With this, the Red Chain made from the crystals of the three lake Pokémon. And this, the Red Chain I replicated with technological means... With these Red Chains I will pry open the portal to another dimension. I command that you unleash your power for me..."

"Dialga, the mythical Pokémon, and the master of time! ...And the other. Palkia, the mythical Pokémon, and the master of space and dimensions!"

"I've waited so long for this moment, Dialga and Palkia. Shaping this world is a double spiral of time and space. Yes, the very things that you have the ability to control! You will do my bidding! I will have your abilities as mine! With the power I wield, I will create an entirely new world! The incomplete and ugly world we have now can disappear. I am resetting everything to zero. Nothing can remain. It is all for making the ultimate world. A world of complete perfection. Nothing so vague and incomplete as spirit can remain."

"...I should have expected as much. Uxie, "The Being of Knowledge." Azelf, "The Being of Willpower." And Mesprit, "The Being of Emotion"..."

"The Pokémon have come to protect Sinnoh? Pathetic and worthless. It takes the three of them, the three lake Pokémon that symbolize spirit, to balance either the Pokémon of time or space. But they can't maintain balance against the two. Not when both Dialga and Palkia are here. Their coming here is in vain. So much meaningless drama. Now, <player>. You've constantly interfered with my plans, but you will be forgiven. After all, there will remain no spirit for all time when I am done. All spirit will disappear. It will be ripped away... From you! From your Pokémon! From those precious to you...! It is time! My dream will be my reality!"
 
What NEO said. All the Lake Trio tried doing was stopping them, thats it. Dialga and Palkia were destroying the mind and spirit they made with just their presence on spear pillar by itself.
 
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