ZZZ: Ether Abilities Expansion, Class M upgrade for Agents, Missing Abilities for existing Profiles

[Naito-desu]

So today's agenda is simple:

Elaborate Ether's effects beyond 'Corruption'

For all present Ether characters to gain these as abilities, and for the rest of the Agents to receive resistances to the following hax outlined in this blog.

ZZZ: Ether Corruption Expanded

vsbattles.fandom.com

Now I don't feel like justification and evidence are sorely needed, but any evidence that this is the same Ether as what is used in combat by Ether users. Zhu Yuan's Ether bullets and Ether weapon in-lore recharge from the Ether in the air inside Hollows. All the effects and hax in the blog are directly linked and cited to their in-game effect.

Now this can either happen through linking the blog itself or by listing the bullet points under Ether Manipulation.

Upgrade Void Hunter & Agent Lifting Strength in Battle with better existing feats

Miyabi and other Void Hunter tiers to a higher end of Class M with this calculation (~11,000 tons), while bringing the other agents up to speed with a lower end of Class M (~1313 tons) This should be the case now that heroes scale to the Dead End Butcher who should be in the same ballpark as the Sacrificial Jester in terms of strength.

Add missing minor abilities for existing Agents

Astra Yao's Mindscape 1 ability grants invulnerability to allied agents through Intangibility, so I propose adding the following to her profile

Intangibility (When singing, Astra Yao makes herself invincible and immune to all forms of attacks. Astra's Mindscape Cinema 01 - 12-Tone Equal Temperament: Can also grant this ability to others with her Ultimate.)

This isn't the only thing, and it can be expanded if we feel that other profiles are missing abilities.

Additional: Review Section 6's rating and explore the possibility of an 8-A rating for them

This isn't something comprehensive, but it has been discussed, and I just want thoughts from other supporters

 

[Hizack123]

Nice, agree

 

[ShroobWasTaken]

I'm with this

 

[Voidnether]

Sure ig this works yea

 

[Kisaragi_Megumi]

Agree as well

 

[Sooshirohl]

nice stuff, agree

 

[Naito-desu]

Alright for formatting reasons with Ether, do we just link the blog. I'll need to know when I edit the profiles

 

[XxZetsuxX]

Verse specific stuff requires 10 abilities or more iirc

 

[Naito-desu]

Aight so we're just listing it on every profile

 

[Naito-desu]

Alright, just so we're clear on what will be implemented before I call in a mod

• Link the blog (it does have 10 abilities, so ig it can just be linked as a blog) to Zhu Yuan, Astra Yao, Nicole, as well as implemented in future profiles of Ether Users
• Add 11,000 tons calc to Miyabi, add the 1,313 tons calc to other agents
• Add Intangibility to Astra Yao's profile
• Section 6 reserved for a later CRT

 

[TegamiBachi25]

Was going to make a matchup with Miyabi but I guess I'll wait first then to pass

 

[Reiner04]

Proposal looks fine to me

 

[Naito-desu]

Thank you for the approval, we just need one more, then?

 

[Sooshirohl]

bump

 

[Reiner04]

Thank you for the approval, we just need one more, then?

I think so, yes.

 

[Naito-desu]

Realized I forgot to include Miasma in the blog but it's aight nothing much interesting that isn't already in the regular Ether hax

 

[Sooshirohl]

bump

 

[Sooshirohl]

bump

 

[BiggestOpp]

I’m new to the wiki so I may not know what’s acceptable or not so so bear with me.
Do we accept pure gameplay elements when there’s actual lore behind the abilities and strength of the characters?
Like giving Astra invulnerability when it’s clear in lore that she doesn’t actually have the ability to do such a thing.
Aside from that I disagree with some of the proposals.

1. There’s no reason to believe any of the VH scale to Bringer’s LS feat. There’s no direct showing of Miyabi overpowering him in lifting strength. There should be more evidence for this.

2. No agent should have resistance to ether effects because all of them can be affected by it. Aptitude is just a set amount of time you can be under those effects before they start applying to you.
It doesn’t help to you resist those effects it just take longer for them to apply to you, as once they do occur there’s no stopping it unless you escape. The effects only occur once you are actually corrupted, as on then do those mutations start to occur.

3. There are a couple of characters that don’t actually attack with ether in lore but have ether gameplay, should you really be giving them abilities that are gameplay exclusive?

 

[Naito-desu]

Do we accept pure gameplay elements when there’s actual lore behind the abilities and strength of the characters?
Like giving Astra invulnerability when it’s clear in lore that she doesn’t actually have the ability to do such a thing.

We do, it's what's done with other video game characters. It's almost always a mix. If you check other gacha profiles, you'll almost always find in-game and gameplay effects indexed along with in-lore abilities.

There’s no reason to believe any of the VH scale to Bringer’s LS feat. There’s no direct showing of Miyabi overpowering him in lifting strength. There should be more evidence for this.

Miyabi can deflect the sword swing with her in-chain parry in her moveset, so can Yanagi.

No agent should have resistance to ether effects because all of them can be affected by it. Aptitude is just a set amount of time you can be under those effects before they start applying to you.
It doesn’t help to you resist those effects it just take longer for them to apply to you, as once they do occur there’s no stopping it unless you escape. The effects only occur once you are actually corrupted, as on then do those mutations start to occur.

Ether Aptitude lets you avoid those effects by letting it build up before having a perceivable effect.The mere fact that it builds up before having a tangible effect should be proof enough that it's a resistance because anyone without a resistance would be feeling those side effects instantaneously

There are a couple of characters that don’t actually attack with ether in lore but have ether gameplay, should you really be giving them abilities that are gameplay exclusive?

The current consensus is to use both gameplay and lore. This isn't really new because going for a strict lore approach would just mean arbitrarily ignoring what you're seeing.

 

[BiggestOpp]

We do, it's what's done with other video game characters. It's almost always a mix. If you check other gacha profiles, you'll almost always find in-game and gameplay effects indexed along with in-lore abilities.

If those gameplay exclusive abilities contradict in lore scaling and showings are they still usable? At what point is something deemed unusable.

Miyabi can deflect the sword swing with her in-chain parry in her moveset, so can Yanagi.

No she can’t. You can’t parry that sword strike in game. In this boss fight he only uses that sword strike when you fail to destroy his hand.
During that invulnerability phase you don’t have the option to parry the attack.
In cutscenes none of the characters are shown parrying that attack or holding it back.
Nobody should scale to it.

Ether Aptitude lets you avoid those effects by letting it build up before having a perceivable effect.The mere fact that it builds up before having a tangible effect should be proof enough that it's a resistance because anyone without a resistance would be feeling those side effects instantaneously

The game describes these effects as mutations in the body.
After a certain point of ether buildup mutations occur in your body which causes these effects. These effects are the byproducts of mutations in the body, not vice versa. It would be different if these effects were described to be resisted in the sense that they are occurring but to a lesser extent due to aptitude, but that isn’t the case. It just takes longer for the actual mutation to occur but once the mutation occurs the effect is set in stone. That doesn’t sound like resistance because they don’t actually resist these effects once they take place.

The current consensus is to use both gameplay and lore. This isn't really new because going for a strict lore approach would just mean arbitrarily ignoring what you're seeing.

If the gameplay contradicts lore wouldn’t this be a problem? Astra clearly doesn’t have invulnerability. There’s other examples that can be brought up but at the end of the day, gameplay is just that, gameplay. I find it hard to believe that there’s no limit to what’s acceptable or not when it comes to applying strictly gameplay related feats to character profiles. Could a staff member confirm this?

 

[Naito-desu]

The game describes these effects as mutations in the body.
After a certain point of ether buildup mutations occur in your body which causes these effects. These effects are the byproducts of mutations in the body, not vice versa. It would be different if these effects were described to be resisted in the sense that they are occurring but to a lesser extent due to aptitude, but that isn’t the case.

You're still resisting them to an extent because there's still a build-up. This is a matter of semantics at this point because you're trying to strictly assign your own definition of resistance onto something that's definitely a case of resisting but doesn't qualify by your standards.

Ether does this by default to a normal person with no Ether Aptitude, something clearly available to certain people; someone with Ether Aptitude can be exposed to it without suffering these effects right away, which should count as resistance. The mere fact it needs to build-up before having these mutations is resistance, end of story.

If those gameplay exclusive abilities contradict in lore scaling and showings are they still usable? At what point is something deemed unusable.

That's a really big IF because it would have to substantially contradict rather than just be an inconsistency, which verses more or less tolerate. Gameplay mechanics as a rule is implemented if it is a massive inconsistency. Astra having it in gameplay and not in any cutscene isn't a contradiction, we've simply never seen it used in such a way, which is really hard to find an opportunity for given how little individual characters get a chance to show off their full kit. Denying it on this basis alone is unnecessarily strict.

No she can’t. You can’t parry that sword strike in game. In this boss fight he only uses that sword strike when you fail to destroy his hand.
During that invulnerability phase you don’t have the option to parry the attack.
In cutscenes none of the characters are shown parrying that attack or holding it back.
Nobody should scale to it.

Miyabi has an in-chain parry in her moveset; it blocks the attack, so it should count. Let's just agree to disagree if you don't think so.

 

[Sooshirohl]

bump

 

[Oblivion_Of_The_Endless]

Looks fine.

 

[BiggestOpp]

You're still resisting them to an extent because there's still a build-up. This is a matter of semantics at this point because you're trying to strictly assign your own definition of resistance onto something that's definitely a case of resisting but doesn't qualify by your standards.

No, this is just wrong. I went back and checked quotes explaining corruption and my original interpretation is correct. Being under the influence of ether isn’t what causes those effects listed in the blog, the mutations that occur after a certain amount of exposure is what causes those debuffs listed above.
Aptitude doesn’t reduce the effects of the mutations, there’s no precedence of this in the game as far as I’m aware. You’d have to prove that aptitude decreases those effects otherwise it wouldn’t count as resistance.

Like, where did this consensus even come from, Corruption is mutations that occur. There’s no precedence of anyone resisting those mutations in any degree, especially not due to aptitude. There needs to be actual evidence for this otherwise there’s no argument to be made. Aptitude is not resistance to Corruption.

Ether does this by default to a normal person with no Ether Aptitude, something clearly available to certain people; someone with Ether Aptitude can be exposed to it without suffering these effects right away, which should count as resistance. The mere fact it needs to build-up before having these mutations is resistance, end of story.

People with no aptitude sustain mutations faster, this is true. Nobody is saying this isn’t the case. It’s entirely irrelevant though.
Ether as a base does not passively inflict those hax listed in the blog, Ether causes Corruption that is the result of mutations occurring after a certain amount of build up has happened. I repeat, Corruption=Mutations. These mutations can occur in different ways that’s classified as Corruption and has several known occurrences. Some of those are listed in that blog above.
For them to have resistances to those effects the mutation would have to occur, actively be taking effect but to a lesser extent, or to no extent at all. This is what you’d have to prove.

That's a really big IF because it would have to substantially contradict rather than just be an inconsistency, which verses more or less tolerate. Gameplay mechanics as a rule is implemented if it is a massive inconsistency. Astra having it in gameplay and not in any cutscene isn't a contradiction, we've simply never seen it used in such a way, which is really hard to find an opportunity for given how little individual characters get a chance to show off their full kit. Denying it on this basis alone is unnecessarily strict.

Astra was fighting random goons and had visible fear on her face when one of them nearly socked her in the jaw. Eve had to swoop in to save her, she clearly doesn’t have the ability to become invulnerable. Denying it due to cutscenes where she clearly doesn’t have it isn’t being strict, it’s just telling you how it is. She doesn’t have the ability canonically and the effect even comes from a mindscape, something she doesn’t even have access to normally.
I’ll take your word for now, but I’d like if a staff member can confirm that gameplay exclusive feats/abilities are applicable if they don’t follow the logic and consistency of the actual lore. I find it hard to believe that any game can have gimped out abilities like this due to gameplay exclusive experiences. Do any game character have invulnerability because they have iframes on some of their animations? What’s the limit of this?

Miyabi has an in-chain parry in her moveset; it blocks the attack, so it should count. Let's just agree to disagree if you don't think so.

Miyabi literally can’t parry the sword strike in game. Bringer is in DA so I went back to check if she should and she literally can’t.
It doesn’t trigger a defensive assist to allow you to swap in and parry it, and the parries tied to her BA don’t even register the attack as something that can be parried, the swings literally phase through her with no interaction.
There’s no basis for this scaling it should be dropped.

 

[BiggestOpp]

Looks fine.

You’re the final vote needed for this evaluation so I’d appreciate if you’d read my argument and then give your stance.

 

[Kisaragi_Megumi]

Honestly what Naito said are more believable and the whole gameplay mechanic being acceptable as an abilities are pretty much allowed

 

[BiggestOpp]

Honestly what Naito said are more believable and the whole gameplay mechanic being acceptable as an abilities are pretty much allowed

Gameplay mechanics being acceptable or not is irrelevant at this point, because the feat that void hunters are supposed to scale to isn’t a real feat.
You can’t parry the giant blade he uses. Bringer is in DA right now you can’t parry test for yourself. You can’t parry it so there’s nothing to scale here.

 

[Naito-desu]

No, this is just wrong. I went back and checked quotes explaining corruption and my original interpretation is correct. Being under the influence of ether isn’t what causes those effects listed in the blog, the mutations that occur after a certain amount of exposure is what causes those debuffs listed above.
Aptitude doesn’t reduce the effects of the mutations, there’s no precedence of this in the game as far as I’m aware. You’d have to prove that aptitude decreases those effects otherwise it wouldn’t count as resistance.

Like, where did this consensus even come from, Corruption is mutations that occur. There’s no precedence of anyone resisting those mutations in any degree, especially not due to aptitude. There needs to be actual evidence for this otherwise there’s no argument to be made. Aptitude is not resistance to Corruption.

Yeah, and they were able to handle exposure before suffering those debuffs. That's still resistance. You're resisting something by being exposed to it and not suffering its effects right away or needing a higher dose. This is how poison resistance works irl. What you're trying to posit is that resistance can only mean negation and immunity; this still counts. Furthermore, these resistances would be taken into account contextually and not be applied blanketly during a debate anyway, so why are we splitting hairs about what a resistance is if the context would negate its utility in a debate anyway? It's being indexed for a situation where it might apply, not as a situation where it would automatically counter the hax itself. This isn't a mindless build-up of abilities to make them stronger.

Astra was fighting random goons and had visible fear on her face when one of them nearly socked her in the jaw. Eve had to swoop in to save her, she clearly doesn’t have the ability to become invulnerable. Denying it due to cutscenes where she clearly doesn’t have it isn’t being strict, it’s just telling you how it is. She doesn’t have the ability canonically and the effect even comes from a mindscape, something she doesn’t even have access to normally.

The in-game events also had narratives of Astra roaming Hollows on her own with no real help or aid. Plot-Induced Stupidity is also a thing, and we can't assume that characters will always do what's optimal, especially if it doesn't suit the needs of the narrative.

Miyabi literally can’t parry the sword strike in game. Bringer is in DA so I went back to check if she should and she literally can’t.
It doesn’t trigger a defensive assist to allow you to swap in and parry it, and the parries tied to her BA don’t even register the attack as something that can be parried, the swings literally phase through her with no interaction.

Not her defensive assist, her attack chain parry should have an interaction, even if by sound and not animation. I'll check again, and if there's no interaction, we can just not implement it and substitute the DEB LS instead.

 

[Kisaragi_Megumi]

This has been applied now (sans Bringer LS as we went with DEB LS), this can be closed now