Yukari Yakumo vs Sans

[DontTalk]

So after some stuff is taken care of let me argue a bit for yukari in round 2:

Up to this point the main argument for her loosing is that she get blitzed. I don't fell that is the case out of various reasons:

For one thing both characters are capable of teleporting themselves and each other. They also are both mid-range characters. So combat speed in and of itself isn't that much of an advantage.

Yukari actually does have the reaction speed to react to sans attacks and by using teleportation/barriers/counter danmaku/ border manipulation can defend against them.

Furthermore we assume karmic retribution would one hit yukari, but it is actually not an attack known to one hit (as far as I know). It may be stronger in yukaris case then against the protagonist in undertale, but do we know that it is that much stronger?

So all in all I don't think Yukaris is defensifly this much in a disadvantage and actually gets to play out her offensive advantages.

 

[Drac32Drac]

It all depends on how fast Sans' attacks are. If we are to believe that the bones and blasters are much faster than light(I remember reading a calculation that claims as much) then Yukari won't be able to react fast enough to do anything about it. Sure, Yukari won't go down in one hit(no one will because KR doesn't actually kill) but if the attacks are just too fast, then she can't avoid them. This is the same argument that was used against Suika, who only stood a reasonable chance due to mist/regen shenanigans.

Also, if Yukari gets by due to barrier shenanigans then Beerus/Frieza need to be considered for Ki barriers by the same logic.

 

[DontTalk]

It all depends on how fast Sans' attacks are. If we are to believe that the bones and blasters are much faster than light(I remember reading several calculations that claim as much) then Yukari won't be able to react fast enough to do anything about it. Sure, Yukari won't go down in one hit(no one will because KR doesn't actually kill) but if the attacks are just too fast, then she can't avoid them. This is the same argument that was used against Suika, who only stood a reasonable chance due to mist/regen shenanigans.
Also, if Yukari gets by due to barrier shenanigans then Beerus/Frieza need to be considered for Ki barriers by the same logic.

Hmm.. as far as I know none of those calcs are accepted. Specifically Papyrus attacks were argued to probably be just relativistic+, so sans attacks are likely not far from that (given that his normal stats at least are lower, I believe and that they are overall similar attack wise). So I don't believe they are that massively faster. His blasters specifically also are slow on set up, so they are hardly a problem for touhou characters, that are masters of dodging either way.

 

[Drac32Drac]

Well, if they are no faster than light speed, Yukari has a pretty good chance then... She can set up barriers and Sans can't really bypass that without running out of steam. Actually, a lot of 2hus could eventually win by that logic as long as they have some way to get the final blow in.

Heh, now I'm envisioning Cirno freezing Sans' attacks as they come in, dodging the blasters, and finally, freezing Sans himself!

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

Sans' bones should likely not be faster than light (though he is at the higher end of rel+ at the very least), but the Gasterblasters should easily be so. Even without any sort of pixel scaling, the attack appears instant to beings who can otherwise perceive light.

 

[Drac32Drac]

Sans' bones should likely not be faster than light (though he is at the higher end of rel+ at the very least), but the Gasterblasters should easily be so. Even without any sort of pixel scaling, the attack appears instant to beings who can otherwise perceive light.

Correct, but the fire delay should make it dodgable by touhou speeds, if everything else is consistent.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

Correct, but the fire delay should make it dodgable by touhou speeds, if everything else is consistent.

Oh I didn't say it was undodgeable. Just that's his one attack which should be some degree of FTL with certainty.

 

[Drac32Drac]

Alright, if we're going to debate this, lets go over a few details.

Teleportation: Both of them have it, but Sans' is instantaneous and completely absurd. Combined with his incredible spatial awareness, I'd say that Sans has better teleportation hax. Enough so that he can out-teleport Yukari.

Prediction: Yukari is extremely intelligent, but Sans is extremely away of his surroundings. It would be difficult for either of them to land a direct blow on the other.

Stamina: Yukari has this aspect in the bag. No need to go into this too much.

Ability to hit the other: Sans has his, whatever you call his gravity thingy, to maneuver his opponent into his attacks... but Yukari can counter that with gaps... but Sans can counter that with teleportation... but Yukari can erect a barrier... but Sans can maneuver Yukari so that the barrier is facing the wrong way... but Yukari can gap the attack away from her... but Sans can...(argh!!! I can keep going all day long!)

 

[Yamatohime]

Isn't Yukari has her own Duplex, Quadruple and Omni-Directional barriers which mess battlefield all around.

 

[DontTalk]

I would have to check, but yukari might have a bit of a range advantage in teleportation. I believe she can use her gaps to go to other realms, like the netherworld. Not entirely sure though.

Well, if yukari has time to do stuff border manipulation is basically a sure hit. Instead of doing something to sans she can to something to concepts he is involved with. Her broder manipulation is known to work on concepts after all...

 

[Drac32Drac]

I would have to check, but yukari might have a bit of a range advantage in teleportation. I believe she can use her gaps to go to other realms, like the netherworld. Not entirely sure though.
Well, if yukari has time to do stuff border manipulation is basically a sure hit. Instead of doing something to sans she can to something to concepts he is involved with. Her broder manipulation is known to work on concepts after all...

That is true, border manipulation can work directly on Sans... but what borders can she manipulate to win the fight? Be careful not to assume that she can do something she has never been shown to do. For instance, manipulating the border of life and death may not actually kill... even without the spellcard rules. So which borders would do the trick for sure?

Both combatants can use hax from pretty absurd ranges it would seem. Yes, yukari used a gap to go to the moon, but there is reason to beleive that her use of that is not as impressive as it might seem at first, considering the link between the two places as 'spiritual realms'. I would be hesitant to say that one can really outrange the other.

As for 'omnidirectional' barriers, wouldn't it be possible to teleport Yukari in such a way as the attack is inside the barrier? It's really complex to think about the interactions.

 

[Yamatohime]

As far as I understand Reimu's own duplex barrier it moves with the user. Reimu moves really slow though.

 

[DontTalk]

to be honest, I don't see the reason to limit to the explicitely shown effects, given that we basically understand how it works. Something like manipulating the border between truth and lies, reality and fantasy, human and youkai, life and death, awake and asleep, day and night, winter and spring etc. should very much enable her to do such things. She is also said to be able to use her gaps to travel into pictures, others' dreams, and even stories.

I don't think there is a good reason to assume that there is some sort of special exception, if we know that she can manipulate concepts like that to such degree. There are enough examples of borders she can manipulate after all and there are various statements to her being able to manipulate the borders between all things or remove the borders between all things.

Her ability was also specifically suggested to be destructive in nature, if she removes boundaries between things, as they would stop existing as seperate objects. Or in the opposite she can create objects by seperating them through a knew boundary. That as well is know.

So for short if the mechanisms are known explicit uses can be concluded and that is what should be done here.

 

[Drac32Drac]

That makes sense... but what isn't clear is what such manipulations actually do. And only Akyuu made the claim that Yukari can actually create and destroy these borders, either before or after Yukari herself edited it.

edit... it's reasons like these why I say to be cautious of using PMiSS as a reference.

edit2... For instance, if she manipulates the border of Life/Death, then instead of killing the target, she might put them in a state of both unlife and undeath... not really a winning move by itself.

 

[DontTalk]

As I already explained for PMiSS if it isn't mentioned to be wrong information it likely isn't.

For the life/death thing. There is an important difference between the border between life and death and the border between things that are alive or death and those that are not.

Shifting the border between life and death can only put one on one of the two sides, either life or death. That just is simple logic, a border always speperates between exactly two states and no others.

So shifting the border between things that are alive or death and those that are not is what would put you in a state of neither.

I might also mention, that we know what happens if the border between life and death gets thin. Beings from the world of the dead begin to be able to easily pass to the world of the living (and likely also the other way around). So the undeath theory hardly applys.

Similar the border between truth and lies for example. She famously used it to make it so that a reflecting of the moon was not a lie of the moon but the truth, so that one could go on the reflection and by that be on the moon. The logical reversal of this is taking something true and making it an illusion/lie/refelction. Liek taking the moon and turning it into something that actually not existis.

As said border manipulation isn't something complicated and abigious. It is quite clear what it can do, even through the applications are extremly large and variation in uses are imaginable.

 

[Drac32Drac]

PMiSS also claims that outsiders want to be eaten, without anything contradicting that other than the reader's common sense. It was Akyuu's own side notes too.

 

[DontTalk]

PMiSS also claims that outsiders want to be eaten, without anything contradicting that other than the reader's common sense. It was Akyuu's own side notes too.

And your point is? A readers common sense is something an author can use to make clear that something is a warped perspective. The text here particulary implies that it is a deduction from the fact that they don't run away.

Text sholdn't always be taken literally as stylistic devices are a thing (like in this case) and something being a lie can later on be shown through new evidence.

But in general an author depicts things in such a way that a reader will in the end certainly know what is the truth and what not, because for an author there just isn't a difference between the perceived truth of the reader and the actual truth.

One may also say, that if you have a general doubt against a whole work of an author, you basically say he went and wrote a book full of things that the reader shoudn't assume to be true, so that after reading it he has gained absolutely no kowledge of things. That is just unrealistic.

 

[Drac32Drac]

I understand this. But it is canon that Yukari herself edited the work and that Yukari herself is known for being dishonest. So her entire section should be taken as shady at best.

edit... I shouldn't say dishonest, more like, misleading.

edit2... Most importantly is to never forget what PMiSS is actually meant to be. An inside look into what the villagers generally see these characters as, whether true or not.

 

[DontTalk]

Why? Its not like the info on there seems to be specifically false. It all lines in with other things we know. In the first place why should ZUN fake the explanations of her abilities, if he nowhere else describes them differently?

I would see it if it were about hiding bad attributes, to showcase yukari being prideful or something, but changing her abilities slightly, in such a way that it is impossible to tell being false, since it falls in line with everything we know and without any reason character wise? Why should ZUN do that?

He himself states that he wanted to archieve an objective view in this work btw.

Edit: Either way, it is best to not continue this discussion in this thread.

 

[Drac32Drac]

Why? Its not like the info on there seems to be specifically false. It all lines in with other things we know. In the first place why should ZUN fake the explanations of her abilities, if he nowhere else describes them differently?
I would see it if it were about hiding bad attributes, to showcase yukari being prideful or something, but changing her abilities slightly, in such a way that it is impossible to tell being false, since it falls in line with everything we know and without any reason character wise? Why should ZUN do that?

He himself states that he wanted to archieve an objective view in this work btw.

Because ZUN is one of the greatest trolls in gaming... XD Seriously, he loves to keep everyone off guard, and he has no problems utilizing half truths in his characterizations. The fact that he created Akyuu to tell this story instead of just releasing some kind of bestiary is so that the has the freedom to do such zany things.

edit.. alright, I'll probably create another thread about this topic when I can gather a more complete case.

 

[DontTalk]

It would only be trolling if he at some later point made clear that it is false. Given that the book was released 10 years ago I doubt that will happen.

But as said, I believe the whole dicussion is a bit beyond what it directly relevant to the thread, so if you want to continue it is best to do that somewhere else...

 

[MirthfulDoggedness]

My position still stands, with prep time, there's no way of telling if Sans can teleport to Yukari if she uses a sort of gap barrier, because of how unclear the gaps can be sometime.

While Sans IS faster, it's unsure by how much, considering she's recently been altered to "At least relativistic." Heck, she might even be faster, aside from MAYBE teleportation. Her gaps also allow her to just take all of Sans' attacks away, and return them right back at him, so it'll just become an attack-returning mess. And at this point, Sans will likely tire out with the repeated attack returning.

Then there's the implication of her intelligence, with prep time, it can be assumed she can come up with much more.. Dastardly plans for Sans. Sans seems very unlikely to outsmart her, according to what I have read about her, she has altered entire events to her will, and even proved to be a threat to the Lunarian Capital itself. Sans certainly does have battle smarts, but that's about it, aside from a potential scientific background.

And with prep time, it can be assumed she can just raise her speed, and heck, even induce death upon Sans. I never recalled Sans having any sort of conceptual resistance against death. All it might take for Sans, is a single, well-planned blow from Yukari, to beat him.

And, if she can change her own speed, why not change Sans' own speed, not saying his teleporter, but anything else. This is all assuming she is capable of changing the border of fast/slow. Which she most likely can do.

R1: Yukari.

R2: Sans, most likely.

R3: Yukari.

 

[Ciruno_Fortes_(COB)]

Things like this makes me wonder if Yukari pretty much just pulled off a fake defeat like before again. Comparing the youkai's defeat to the moon in the past and her surrendering to Toyohime before laughing it off

So should some of the feats here be added to her vs page?

 

[Yamatohime]

Wow! Yukari's wank is strong here (but at least not unreasonable). I think that many forgot that Yukari can't attack Reimu in her Fantasy Nature state. I see only one reason for it - Yukari can't control border if it's vague like reality border.

 

[Ciruno_Fortes_(COB)]

Maybe that's just how broken Reimu is kek. Reimu is basically transcending with that ability anyway

 

[Yamatohime]

Nope. I prefer to believe that Yukari's power limit is her understanding in borders. And Reimu's ability is ability to fly away from reality (in other words Reimu just goes nuts ^_^).

 

[Ciruno_Fortes_(COB)]

That's.... not actually conflicting with what I'm saying above. And DontTalk has some good points on Yukari's ability. At least with how Marisa explains her ability.

 

[Yamatohime]

Marisa is can't understand Reimu's ability...

Thinking about Reimu... Isn't she learned how to teleport after meeting with Yukari...

 

[MirthfulDoggedness]

Things like this makes me wonder if Yukari pretty much just pulled off a fake defeat like before again. Comparing the youkai's defeat to the moon in the past and her surrendering to Toyohime before laughing it off
So should some of the feats here be added to her vs page?

Wouldn't hurt at all to include some feats, makes it easier for those not familiar at all with Yukari, or Touhou in general. Yukari really does need a lot of revisions, I know several people will agree on this notion.

 

[Ciruno_Fortes_(COB)]

Was referring to Marisa, explaining Yukari's Ability

And I think so. What of it?

 

[Yamatohime]

Was referring to Marisa, explaining Yukari's Ability

Marisa is bad in explaining something that she do not truly understand. She makes a lot of assumptions.

 

[Ciruno_Fortes_(COB)]

And even with that, the above reasoning is still possible. Sides, Marisa has great experience with magic. She has no reason to lie about her analysis and even if she doesn't truly understand she's at least comparable to the likes of Patchouli and Alice, both having studied a lot of magic. Even is she is assuming what's not to say that those are right? Besides, with DontTalk's explanation it seems legit.

 

[Yamatohime]

Because we saw limits of Yukari's abilities. As long as border is too vague for Yukari to comprehend she can't use her ability on it.

 

[Ciruno_Fortes_(COB)]

Aka her trying to comprehend someone transcending reality. Meanwhile we see Yukari turn truths into lies and lies into truths and life and death. If she can summon anti-matter it's not a matter of range either.

Have we forgotten how broken Reimu can be?

 

[DontTalk]

Because we saw limits of Yukari's abilities. As long as border is too vague for Yukari to comprehend she can't use her ability on it.

That might be the case, however note that I only said a specific exception. I don't assume she can manipulate the borders of logic, can make herself the same as the dragon god or use it on higher dimensions. I am also not saying she can use it to destroy the universe or even the planet.

But what she can do is use it to manipulate conceptual borders. We know various of those. And things like manipulating the relatively normal borders of living beings or objects, like the border between water surface and athmosphere or between human and youkai.

Even the coneptual borders we know her to use are plently powerful when correctly applied.

So she is able to directly effect other beings and is not bound to normal durability when destroying them. Manipulating their borders, or conceptual borders related to them is a legitimate possibility and a way for her to fight.

 

[DontTalk]

I have made a thread here so that we don't have to discuss this more or less off topic in this vs thread.

 

[MirthfulDoggedness]

So, a vote: Round three, prep time.

My vote - Yukari, for reasons I already explained.

 

[Andykhang]

Talking about Reimu though, the reason isn't that the border are too vague, it's that theoratically, there's no boundary of reality that could affect her, at all.Not time and space, not the limit of the speed of light, nothing. That's how scary of an ability that allow people to literally rise above the law of the universe, undisturb with it limitation. Though in practice, i doubt Reimu even think that far. only in the range of universally untouchable and instanious teleportation.

About Yukari though: Round 3, definitvely Yukari. Round 2 could also be her pretend to lose hard to study her opponent.

 

[MirthfulDoggedness]

Talking about Reimu though, the reason isn't that the border are too vague, it's that theoratically, there's no boundary of reality that could affect her, at all.Not time and space, not the limit of the speed of light, nothing. That's how scary of an ability that allow people to literally rise above the law of the universe, undisturb with it limitation. Though in practice, i doubt Reimu even think that far. only in the range of universally untouchable and instanious teleportation.
About Yukari though: Round 3, definitvely Yukari. Round 2 could also be her pretend to lose hard to study her opponent.

If Yukari were on a higher level of existence than Reimu, moving away from reality doesn't matter much.

 

[Andykhang]

If Yukari were on a higher level of existence than Reimu, moving away from reality doesn't matter much.

That's like saying Yukari can lawfully affect her because she is a noble, even though Reimu doesn't came from earth. Rank doesn't matter if you aren't a part of the law that support it. And again, it's all theory, since we didn't even know if she could do use her ability to it full potential .

Please, could we just stop and agree that both of them is OP, this is getting sidetracked.