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Yogiri 2-A Death Manipulation Qualm/Question

"So no, I never said it was just Death Manipulation, stop twisting my words. I said it was his main ability and he has many ways to apply it for technical effects. g."

This is flat out not true though. Death Manipulation is one of the applications.
 
PlozAlcachaz said:
Well, it would be nice just for the context. Depending on how it's explained, I might be inclined to agree with the 2-A stuff. I've been given differing explanations on it before and that it originally came from The Heavenly Record Eater, but I was told the justification is different now.
Click to expand...
The HRE was the 2-B justification. Completely different from 2-A, which is why the HRE's tier didn't change but Yogiri's did.
 
YungManzi said:
And if you're looking for scans on subjectively reality. Read his profile.
Click to expand...
Firstly, you can just compile things into one post. Ya don't need to multipost.

Anyway, no, I'm not looking at scans for Subjective Reality. I already said I agree with the idea, we're both just explaining it in different ways to come to a similar conclusion. Death Manipulation obviously plays into a big part of it. I'm talking about him destroying the multiverse though, I'd like to see the scan(s) for it.
 
Aye found it

The Jet-Black Witch. A wandering dimensional user. A world-crossing beauty. The God Killer. The Almighty Gentiles. A ruler of space-time. 　

Miranda, who had various aliases, fled into the sub-space she had created and was trembling on her knees. 　

The moment she saw that, it made her feel like she had been plunged into the abyss. 　

Death itself was standing in the form of a human being. 　

She wondered how many coincidences and miracles had to come together to create something like that. 　

It was unimaginable, even to Miranda, who had witnessed the opening and end of several universes. 　

Somehow, it was just a willpowerful thing to continue to behave in a pompous manner. 　

If she had let her mind wander even a little bit, she would have crushed her spirit to pieces on the spot and killed herself.

Even eternal darkness was lukewarm, far better than true annihilation.

''Then why don't we stop?''

When she said that, Miranda was deeply relieved. She felt saved. 　

If that thing is in the mood, it's useless no matter where you run to. 　

There was only one way to save herself in the face of that thing. You have to beg for it's mercy. There is no other way but to beg for your life and be forgiven. 　

The only thing that can save you is that it has a human will. 　

If it was just a vortex of death, it would have been indiscriminate, rudderless, consuming this universe and ending everything else that exists.
Click to expand...
 
PlozAlcachaz said:
Firstly, you can just compile things into one post. Ya don't need to multipost.

Anyway, no, I'm not looking at scans for Subjective Reality. I already said I agree with the idea, we're both just explaining it in different ways to come to a similar conclusion. Death Manipulation obviously plays into a big part of it. I'm talking about him destroying the multiverse though, I'd like to see the scan(s) for it.
Click to expand...
Multipost here doesn't matter as much tbh, since the thread isn't limited. As long as you're not shitposting.
 
Oblivion_Of_The_Endless said:
The Jet-Black Witch. A wandering dimensional user. A world-crossing beauty. The God Killer. The Almighty Gentiles. A ruler of space-time. 　

Miranda, who had various aliases, fled into the sub-space she had created and was trembling on her knees. 　

The moment she saw that, it made her feel like she had been plunged into the abyss. 　

Death itself was standing in the form of a human being. 　

She wondered how many coincidences and miracles had to come together to create something like that. 　

It was unimaginable, even to Miranda, who had witnessed the opening and end of several universes. 　

Somehow, it was just a willpowerful thing to continue to behave in a pompous manner. 　

If she had let her mind wander even a little bit, she would have crushed her spirit to pieces on the spot and killed herself.

Even eternal darkness was lukewarm, far better than true annihilation.

''Then why don't we stop?''

When she said that, Miranda was deeply relieved. She felt saved. 　

If that thing is in the mood, it's useless no matter where you run to. 　

There was only one way to save herself in the face of that thing. You have to beg for it's mercy. There is no other way but to beg for your life and be forgiven. 　

The only thing that can save you is that it has a human will. 　

If it was just a vortex of death, it would have been indiscriminate, rudderless, consuming this universe and ending everything else that exists.
Click to expand...
Yeah, I don't really think this should apply. The text essentially is saying that if Yogiri wasn't Yogiri, then it would reach this potential. Even then, there are some other questionable factors that cast doubt on this applying to him. This could probably be used for the true form, but I don't think it should apply to Yogiri at all.
 
Well, Instant Death uses the power of his true form.

Funny enough; it's implied his fate/plot manipulation is the work of his true form as well. With a statement of his true form covering him in protections.
 
YungManzi said:
Well, Instant Death uses the power of his true form.

Funny enough; it's implied his fate/plot manipulation is the work of his true form as well. With a statement of his true form covering him in protections.
Click to expand...
Yes, but using it to its fullest extent would require Yogiri to not be Yogiri. He shouldn't be scaling to the full potential of it with that in mind. Emperor Joker got downgraded through this same problem too.
 
The fullest extent of his power not only encompasses the multiverse but also the "sea" that contains it (which is infinitely greater than the multiverse itself). So even in his limited form (as an avatar), he should be able to destroy the multiverse (because it would be considered a limited scale of destruction for someone that is infinitely greater). Since he won't be using his full potential by destroying the multiverse alone, '2-A with Instant Death' is not an issue.
 
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Gemstic said:
The fullest extent of his power not only encompasses the multiverse but also the "sea" that contains it (which is infinitely greater than the multiverse itself). So even in his limited form (as an avatar), he should be able to destroy the multiverse (because it would be considered a limited scale of destruction for someone that is infinitely greater). Since he won't be using his full potential by destroying the multiverse alone, '2-A with Instant Death' is not an issue.
Click to expand...
I don't understand exactly what the argument here is. Are you saying that just because the true form is beyond the Multiverse and the thing encompassing it, that somehow is going to justify him being able to destroy the Multiverse?

That quite literally does not change anything. When I was referring to full potential, I was referring to how the quote says he'd literally not have to be Yogiri in order for that to happen. Just him literally being a human and having that restraint mean he cannot perform it on that scale. What you posted doesn't really address anything at all.
 
Well instant Death scales to true form and can destroy the multiverse. The rating for ID is not going anywhere.
I'm really not sure why you're so determined to change it.

And as far as "Yes, but using it to its fullest extent would require Yogiri to not be Yogiri. He shouldn't be scaling to the full potential of it with that in mind. Emperor Joker got downgraded through this same problem too." goes.

I'm not even sure what you're talking about. Hell, EJ still has a possibly Low 1-C rating, just with a caveat that he can't really control his power. Besides; DC and Marvel are treated very differently than other verses when it comes to tiering. There are even site rules and standards which only apply to them. So they are not a good benchmark under any circumstances.
 
YungManzi said:
Well instant Death scales to true form and can destroy the multiverse. The rating for ID is not going anywhere.
I'm really not sure why you're so determined to change it.
Click to expand...
Okay, can you say why it scales to the true form? I've yet to see anything that actually shows this. The context of the "multiversal destruction" segment honestly seems to go against such an idea if anything, ironically. I'll go over the quote again to ask you why this scales to him like seriously.

"There was only one way to save herself in the face of that thing. You have to beg for it's mercy. There is no other way but to beg for your life and be forgiven.

The only thing that can save you is that it has a human will.

If it was just a vortex of death, it would have been indiscriminate, rudderless, consuming this universe and ending everything else that exists."

Quoting this section because it's the relevant part. The first two verses go on to explain the restraint that Yogiri has when it comes to his ability. The last verse, which is used to support his entire 2-A rating, literally has an "if" statement in front of it. Said "if" statement literally talks about how it would only apply if Yogiri was quite literally not Yogiri. That is incredibly problematic to be scaling Yogiri off that given the nature of the statement.

Also, I already told you this isn't a thread to even get rid of it, at least not yet. There's a reason I didn't decide to immediately take this to a CRT instead, and it's because I wanted to hear the arguments otherwise. I don't know where you've gotten the idea that it was my intent to actually change the profile, I've specified against this multiple times (and you would know this is you read the thread). Even then, multiple people have been in support of removing this, so I'm not sure why you're acting as nobody agrees with it.
YungManzi said:
And as far as "Yes, but using it to its fullest extent would require Yogiri to not be Yogiri. He shouldn't be scaling to the full potential of it with that in mind. Emperor Joker got downgraded through this same problem too." goes.

I'm not even sure what you're talking about. Hell, EJ still has a possibly Low 1-C rating, just with a caveat that he can't really control his power. Besides; DC and Marvel are treated very differently than other verses when it comes to tiering. There are even site rules and standards which only apply to them. So they are not a good benchmark under any circumstances.
Click to expand...
Emperor Joker has an "ultimately" Low 1-C rating because he'd eventually get there. He had Mxy's power the entire time he was Emperor Joker, yet he was still only initially 3-A. That's the point, he's not automatically just High 2-A off the bat, which is the idea you're ignoring here. DC and Marvel are treated differently in terms of their powerscaling, not anything else that's based on logic. His entire downgrade stemmed from something that happened in the Kirby-verse actually, they just applied it to DC too because their rules of logic aren't different in this case.
 
"Okay, can you say why it scales to the true form? I've yet to see anything that actually shows this."

Because it's not only a power given by his true form, but there have been times where his true form itself manifests as Instant Death.

Dude; his profile literally says "His power is a manifestation of his true form". And if you're going to ask for scans of every single aspect of his profile that doesn't have them (But is already accepted, mind you.). I'm telling you right now. I'm not about to scour through ID achieves for hours, possibly days, to satisfy you. You'd be better off asking Gem or Oblivion.

", literally has an "if" statement in front of it. Said "if" statement literally talks about how it would only apply if Yogiri was quite literally not Yogiri. That is incredibly problematic to be scaling Yogiri off that given the nature of the statement."

I don't see how this matters. All it's saying is that OOC Yogiri could destroy everything. In which case there's no reason to not apply it.

It's not saying "If Yogiri had a completely different power it could destroy everything." It's saying that he would destroy everything if he had no human emotions.
 
Emperor Joker has an "ultimately" Low 1-C rating because he'd eventually get there.
Click to expand...

The difference is that Yogiri (the avatar) does not have to 'eventually get to some point'. Whenever he faces a situation that's beyond him, his use of instant death is simply having the true form manifest itself in his place. So, there's no reason to differentiate between the AP of the true form and the avatar.
 
YungManzi said:
"Okay, can you say why it scales to the true form? I've yet to see anything that actually shows this." - Ploz

Because it's not only a power given by his true form, but there have been times where his true form itself manifests as Instant Death.
Click to expand...
Okay, name instances where this is the case or even just a single instance for the matter.
YungManzi said:
Dude; his profile literally says "His power is a manifestation of his true form". And if you're going to ask for scans of every single aspect of his profile that doesn't have them (But is already accepted, mind you.). I'm telling you right now. I'm not about to scour through ID achieves for hours, possibly days, to satisfy you. You'd be better off asking Gem or Oblivion.
Click to expand...
I've only asked for scans regarding AP for one key of the profile. I've literally asked for nothing else, so please don't exaggerate it like I'm asking you to move mountains just to have this thread happen. Yes, and being a manifestation in itself doesn't mean you automatically scale to the full thing, especially with avatars. That needs actual proof to it. Being accepted doesn't make something infallible either, that's why we have revision threads, to begin with.

Also, asking for scans is completely fine for threads like these. I literally have to had to skip around six hours worth of Kingdom Hearts cutscenes just to find a few examples to debunk one section of an upgrade someone is trying to push through right now. This is something site members do for their verses, whether we like it or not.
YungManzi said:
", literally has an "if" statement in front of it. Said "if" statement literally talks about how it would only apply if Yogiri was quite literally not Yogiri. That is incredibly problematic to be scaling Yogiri off that given the nature of the statement." - Ploz

I don't see how this matters. All it's saying is that OOC Yogiri could destroy everything. In which case there's no reason to not apply it.

It's not saying "If Yogiri had a completely different power it could destroy everything." It's saying that he would destroy everything if he had no human emotions.
Click to expand...
Alright, I want to focus on this bit.

"It's saying that he would destroy everything if he had no human emotions."

That is an indirect concession on the point. In order for Yogiri to destroy everything, he would have to have no human emotions. You've already explained the problem with him scaling to this because guess what, he is a human with human emotions. It cannot apply to him because his human emotions will always restrain him from ever using his ability to that degree.

Let me just put this in layman's terms. You're trying to say we can apply a statement to Yogiri when the statement is literally about "If he was not Yogiri?" with the subsequent consequences of multiversal destruction.
 
Gemstic said:
The difference is that Yogiri (the avatar) does not have to 'eventually get to some point'. Whenever he faces a situation that's beyond him, his use of instant death is simply having the true form manifest itself in his place. So, there's no reason to differentiate between the AP of the true form and the avatar.
Click to expand...
I did not say Yogiri would get there at some point or anything of the sort, I was explaining the Emperor Joker example because drawing from a source of power does not automatically mean you will scale to its complete abilities. Parallel Landia had this exact same problem back when Magolor was 3-A, even though both of them used the Master Crown to fuel their power. Like I said to Yung, examples of this would be appreciated.
 
GiverOfThePeace said:
Didn't Spongebob not get 2-C for this exact same reason tho
Click to expand...
Nope. That's more to do with optional equipment and weapon usage as opposed to it being an actual power of his and us just not tiering hax, if you go back and look at the thread where it was removed here. The OP says:

"It makes zero sense and it's pointless

-Spongebob, very briefly, heald One of the magic pages. For barely a minute no less.

-He has zero idea how to use it, how to do any magic from it, or even both using this thing in character.

-This is the equivalent of making someone 9C with a sword because they briefly heald one in a museum but have no idea how to even swing it properly or carry it.

Briefly holding a form of equipment that you can't even properly use is so pointless it's baffling

In other words Unless Sponge can even use this page, which he can't, it should be removed from his page"
 
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