Yogiri 2-A Death Manipulation Qualm/Question

[PlozAlcachaz]

I have a genuine question that I want to ask.

Why does Yogiri have a tier through Instant Death?

I suppose I should go over my gripes with the reasoning on the page.

"Multiverse level+ with Instant Death (Capable of killing and destroying the entire conceptual hierarchy of heavenly records/space-times, in which there is an infinite number of them. His power is a manifestation of his true form)"

From what I understand, he basically Death Manip'd infinite universes on a conceptual level. Alright, I do not have a problem with the feat itself, but I do have a question about what was extrapolated from it. Basically, why is this being treated as tiering at all? It seems more like something to note about the range and potency of the ability rather than giving an outright physical tier. The latter part of the reasoning doesn't necessarily make it 2-A either because it'd just explain the potency of the death hax from what I can tell. I believe Giorno's "High 3-A via Reset to Zero" was removed for a pretty similar reason too, I do not see why Yogiri would be any different here.

If there isn't a good explanation, I might try to approach the CRT board with this.

 

[Oblivion_Of_The_Endless]

We can tier hax when the hax in question can destroy/affect Higher-D things/structures

See Zeno, Noel Vermillion, Monika, Hades Izanami, Lucian, Axl Low for examples

 

[PlozAlcachaz]

We can tier hax when the hax in question can destroy/affect Higher-D things/structures

See Zeno, Noel Vermillion, Monika, Hades Izanami, Lucian, Axl Low for examples

The examples you gave aren't really equivalent to Yogiri.

To explain why:

• Zeno naturally scales to 2-C, not even sure why this is brought up.
• Noel is someone who outright creates a world full of infinite possibilities. Her hax-based reasoning is fine from that.
• Monika destroys and creates realities with her powers. Again, not really equivalent.
• Hades amplifies someone to be able to overpower a 2-A ability with offensive purposes from what the profile says. Amplification is perfectly acceptable considering this.
• Lucian is because they have some comparable tech to people who create and erase entire timelines/universe.
• Axl's description is based on him being able to erase timelines.

All of the examples you've listed involve people using hax for outright creation/destruction aside from Hades who has it for another perfectly valid reason in that they amplified someone to overpower something else that was 2-A. Yogiri is getting 2-A here because he can kill something through an ability that naturally bypasses durability, not the same case. I assume my assessments on the reasoning are correct then because the only 2-A reasoning here seems to be based on misconstruing how other profiles have higher tiers via hax.

 

[I'm_Blue_daba_dee_daba_die]

But wasn't Yogurt able to kill a living multiverse??? I think that could be enough to be considered AP via hax.

Axl's EE is dura negating hax as well, I think Yogiri can keep his 2-A rating if Axl can keep it

 

[PlozAlcachaz]

But wasn't Yogurt able to kill a living multiverse??? I think that could be enough to be considered AP via hax

Death Manipulation bypasses durability. Idk how you can scale it to AP when that goes against the mechanics of the ability itself.

 

[Oblivion_Of_The_Endless]

Erasure is Hax, though

 

[PlozAlcachaz]

Erasure is Hax, though

Okay, so we circle back to this point again, aren't they ceasing to exist because of the potency of his Death Manip? If it's yes, then it doesn't scale to his AP, it's just that simple.

 

[Sadistic_Sleuth]

I was asking myself the same question. It's just deathaxing to kill a guy without deathax resistance.

 

[Oblivion_Of_The_Endless]

Okay, so we circle back to this point again, aren't they ceasing to exist because of the potency of his Death Manip? If it's yes, then it doesn't scale to his AP, it's just that simple.

Who are you referring to "they" here?

 

[PlozAlcachaz]

Who are you referring to "they" here?

The Heavenly Records.

 

[Oblivion_Of_The_Endless]

The Heavenly Records.

Heavenly Records are space-times/universes. Yogiri's 2-A tier comes from him being able to destroy all of existence which includes the heavenly records and their hierarchy

 

[GiverOfThePeace]

Zeno being tier 2 via EE is because ki in DB is heavily AP based as it is hax based btw. They kinda go hand in hand for most scenarios which is why ki a lot of the time can resist hax from other ki users if they simply have stronger ki

 

[PlozAlcachaz]

Heavenly Records are space-times. Yogiri's 2-A tier comes from him being able to destroy all of existence which includes the heavenly records and their hierarchy

Yes, I know that. The profile makes that quite clear. Again though, his method of "destroying" them is through Death Manipping them to that degree though, is it not? I don't need another work around/evasive response, it's just a simple yes or no question.

 

[Oblivion_Of_The_Endless]

Yes, I know that. The profile makes that quite clear. Again though, his method of "destroying" them is through Death Manipping them to that degree though, is it not? I don't need another work around/evasive response, it's just a simple yes or no question.

I guess? We call it death manip but the actual use of it its to cause whatever thing he targets to end (thats why he also has EE). Then again, we can tier hax when it can destroy Higher-D structures. Culaina has 2-B via Probability Manip. Axl's Low 2-C tier is from EE. Veldora is Low 2-C via probability manip. Numidium has 1-A via EE, etc..

Im actually fine with Yogiri's ID being put at Unknown or whatever since its dura neg but our standards with Higher-D hax would support the other way around

 

[GiverOfThePeace]

Does ID need to be put into a tier? Just put th e hax in the range section and explain the potency on threads if someone's too lazy to read the range.

 

[PlozAlcachaz]

I guess? We call it death manip but the actual use of it its to cause whatever thing he targets to end (thats why he also has EE). Then again, we can tier hax when it can destroy Higher-D structures. Culaina has 2-B via Probability Manip. Axl's Low 2-C tier is from EE. Veldora is Low 2-C via probability manip. Numidium has 1-A via EE, etc..

Im actually fine with Yogiri's ID being put at Unknown or whatever since its dura neg but our standards with Higher-D hax would support the other way around

That would still fit his Death Manipulation mechanic. Their existence being erased would be a side effect of the general power from what it still seems to be. What you're describing is still bypassing durability. Also, their cases of destroying Higher-D structures come from legitimately matching the force needed to be that tier.

Again, the others do not match Yogiri's case at all:

• Culaina's has her Probability Manipulation that determines reality and affects millions of others. It's a case of her Probability Manipulation being so potent that she outright controls it, so it's a completely fine example.
• Axl's is through erasing timelines, that's fine enough.
• Veldora's Probability Manipulation opposed the energy that was capable of destroying the universe. The fact it opposed that is what makes the tier fine.
• Numidium's seems to be from erasing Outerversal stuff, no extra fluff to it.

Yogiri's is because he imposes death, something that naturally bypasses durability, to such a degree and scale that it causes those additional effects. That seems incredibly self-explanatory from the explanation of the page and just common sense. Again, one of these things is not like the others.

It really doesn't need a tier at all. Like legitimately, removing this doesn't even affect the profile because he keeps the same potency and range of the ability. He would receive one of those notes after the AP where it says "can bypass durability through Instant Death" and that'd be it.

 

[Oblivion_Of_The_Endless]

Axl's is through erasing timelines, that's fine enough.

• Numidium's seems to be from erasing Outerversal stuff, no extra fluff to it.

But EE and Death Manip are both dura neg/hax though. Why one is fine and other not? Also, why does being it 1-A matters if its still dura neg? Its affecting a higher-D (in this case beyond-D) stuff in the same case of the others (dura neg)

It really doesn't need a tier at all.

An Unknown tier should be fine. Characters like Rubber Soul, Risotto, Bug-Eaten have Unknown due to their attacks being mainly dura neg effects. Something like "Unknown with Instant Death (His power doesn't focus mainly on destruction and rather at ignoring durability)" would be better to explain in the AP section rather than just slapping on the range section (such things are supposed to be explained in the AP section anyway)

 

[PlozAlcachaz]

But EE and Death Manip are both dura neg/hax though. Why one is fine and other not? Also, why does being it 1-A matters if its still dura neg? Its affecting a higher-D (in this case beyond-D) stuff in the same case of the others (dura neg)

Erasure can actually be tied to AP. You gave like multiple examples earlier that showcased it. Death Manipulation like Yogiri's isn't AP-based at all. I never said being 1-A made the case different. I was noting how it worked.

An Unknown tier should be fine. Characters like Rubber Soul, Risotto, Bug-Eaten have Unknown due to their attacks being mainly dura neg effects. Something like "Unknown with Instant Death (His power doesn't focus mainly on destruction and rather at ignoring durability)" would be better to explain the stuff rather than just slapping on the range section (such things are supposed to be explained in the AP section anyway)

This is another case of one of these things is not like the others.

Explaining them again:

• Rubber Soul has it noted because Yellow Temperance hasn't shown anything that allows it to be at a quantifiable tier with a note about it just using absorption. That's more the fact that it lacks feats for classification and how most Jojo characters are treated as having different AP with their stands and all.
• Risotto has the exact same thing with him. Metallica ignores durability by taking the iron out of people, and it doesn't have any real AP feats.
• Bug-Eaten has the exact same case as the prior two because Ratt has only shown offensive stuff through Biological Manipulation.

All of your examples are from JJBA, which isn't really the best example to illustrate the point considering they get Unknowns because the actual Stands themselves for unknown offensive capabilities physically. The same cannot be said for Yogiri's Instant Death because it doesn't act like a Stand. If you want to explain the potency, just make a note about it on the profile or better explain it in the P&As section. Unknown is still completely unneeded.

 

[Oblivion_Of_The_Endless]

Well, Im fine with either option anyway

 

[PlozAlcachaz]

A note about it would probably suffice to explain the potency and range of it (along with a note after the 10-A that he bypasses durability through Instant Death). Removing it as AP won't really affect the character in matches or anything.

 

[YungManzi]

He can destroy and damage things with Instant Death (For example crush objects, concepts, and universes), therefore it can be given a tier. This is like, the third time this has been brought up. It's a redundant argument and not accepted.

And with that counter, given the examples Oblivion listed, you're implying that a character can only be given a tier for having feats of both creation and destruction in that tier. Which is not the case. It's never worked like that.

 

[YungManzi]

Basically the way we treat it right now is as a mostly hax ability that can also be used as a beat stick (AP).

Instant Death is just that versatile.

 

[GiverOfThePeace]

And with that counter, given the examples Oblivion listed, you're implying that a character can only be given a tier for having feats of both creation and destruction in that tier. Which is not the case. It's never worked like that.

Did you read his replies? He explained why those examples had the tiers.

 

[PlozAlcachaz]

He can destroy and damage things with Instant Death (For example crush objects, concepts, and universes), therefore it can be given a tier. This is like, the third time this has been brought up. It's a redundant argument and not accepted.

And with that counter, given the examples Oblivion listed, you're implying that a character can only be given a tier for having feats of both creation and destruction in that tier. Which is not the case. It's never worked like that.

This is literally repeating the exact same points that we have already agreed do not work. You are adding nothing new to the discussion. I guess I'll entertain this though and break it down again for you to understand.

"He can destroy and damage things with Instant Death (For example crush objects, concepts, and universes), therefore it can be given a tier."

Yeah, the way he's damaging and destroying things is through an incredibly potent Death Manipulation, aka an ability that bypasses durability. The conclusion drawn here has an ignorant premise that refuses to acknowledge the mechanics of the ability. Your argument fell flat on itself before it could even make any sense.

"This is like, the third time this has been brought up. It's a redundant argument and not accepted."

Then clearly something else has happened here because we've already agreed on the subject at hand. Just because some dudes failed to argue it beforehand doesn't suddenly invalidate the notion, you repeating the same argument that's been said like five times is redundant yet that doesn't seem to stop it from being posted.

"And with that counter, given the examples Oblivion listed, you're implying that a character can only be given a tier for having feats of both creation and destruction in that tier. Which is not the case. It's never worked like that."

That's not what I said at all. Hell, I even said an example of amplification and controlling reality were both perfectly valid examples to have hax as tiering. I'd advise that you actually look at the thread and what's been said rather than skimming. It detracts from the progress we've made on this and makes you come off as uneducated on the topic.

 

[YungManzi]

Instant Death is not actually just potent Death Manipulation. It's whatever Yogiri perceives "Death" to be. Aka it can be EE, Death Manipulation, Atomic destruction, AP, or whatever else Yogiri wants it to be. That's why it's so versatile, because it's not just death manipulation, although it can be that and that's generally how it's used.

And I won't bother reading through a whole thread about a topic already discussed repeating tired arguments and "refuting" points with faulty reasoning. (Especially since I'm kinda busy right now, and only here because I was asked to be and I'm one of the main ID supporters),

"ll. Hell, I even said an example of amplification and controlling reality were both perfectly valid examples to have hax as tiering. "

Yeah, you also verbatim said.

"Monika destroys and creates realities with her powers. Again, not really equivalent."

If Monika gets a tier for her powers; for deleting and restoring files (Which doesn't sound like AP by your standards, cause it's just It's Data Manip.), then Instant Death should also get a rating because there's actually more evidence for it. Like, the fact that it can actually cause physical damage to people and/or objects.

"Culaina's has her Probability Manipulation that determines reality and affects millions of others. It's a case of her Probability Manipulation being so potent that she outright controls it, so it's a completely fine example."

Yeah, and Yogiri can destroy reality itself with Instant Death on a 2-A scale. So controlling grants the power a tier but destroying doesn't?

"Veldora's Probability Manipulation opposed the energy that was capable of destroying the universe. The fact it opposed that is what makes the tier fine."

Yeah, and Instant Death is capable of destroying the multiverse.

"This is literally repeating the exact same points that we have already agreed do not work. You are adding nothing new to the discussion."

I am literally saying the same thing about you, this has been discussed repeatedly multiple times over the years Yogiri's had a profile.

 

[YungManzi]

Instant Death is not actually just potent Death Manipulation. It's whatever Yogiri perceives "Death" to be. Aka it can be EE, Death Manipulation, Atomic destruction, AP, or whatever else Yogiri wants it to be. That's why it's so versatile, because it's not just death manipulation, although it can be that and that's generally how it's used.

Quoting this just to say; this is the entire reason why Yogiri has subjective reality and reality waring.

 

[PlozAlcachaz]

Instant Death is not actually just potent Death Manipulation. It's whatever Yogiri perceives "Death" to be. Aka it can be EE, Death Manipulation, Atomic destruction, AP, or whatever else Yogiri wants it to be. That's why it's so versatile, because it's not just death manipulation, although it can be that and that's generally how it's used.

That literally doesn't change what I said at all. All of these would be technical applications of his Death Manipulation from what I'm understanding. Also, it would be so versatile because it has a lot of applications. Like literally everything on his profile even makes it out to be this way.

And I won't bother reading through a whole thread about a topic already discussed repeating tired arguments and "refuting" points with faulty reasoning. (Especially since I'm kinda busy right now, and only here because I was asked to be and I'm one of the main ID supporters),

Yeah, didn't you repeat this exact same sentiment in your last comment but then proceeded to get called out for directly misrepresenting info? You have no room to call anything faulty if you are outright admitting in the same sentence that you aren't going to read the thread.

"ll. Hell, I even said an example of amplification and controlling reality were both perfectly valid examples to have hax as tiering. "

Yeah, you also verbatim said.

"Monika destroys and creates realities with her powers. Again, not really equivalent."

If Monika gets a tier for her powers; for deleting and restoring files (Which doesn't sound like AP by your standards, cause it's just It's Data Manip.), then Instant Death should also get a rating because there's actually more evidence for it. Like, the fact that it can actually cause physical damage to people and/or objects.

You're right, I emphasized the fact that she destroys and creates realities with her powers because that's like the most blatant way you could ever get tiering. The profile already has a note to explain the ratings of these powers in-depth, I think it's fine for AP.

Okay, would you mind going over the staggering "evidence" that you are claiming? Causing damage to people and objects given how his Death Manipulation works aren't really enough to get this point by, especially with how his Partial Killing and other abilities are explained as essentially just bypassing durability.

"Culaina's has her Probability Manipulation that determines reality and affects millions of others. It's a case of her Probability Manipulation being so potent that she outright controls it, so it's a completely fine example."

Yeah, and Yogiri can destroy reality itself with Instant Death on a 2-A scale. So controlling grants the power a tier but destroying doesn't?

Again, actual elaboration on why it's AP instead of what you even admitted was the general usage would be nice. Also, yeah, controlling timelines to your whim and such has always been a good contributor to AP. Also, it completely depends on the way the "destruction" is done. If it's just killing it on a conceptual level, that's a potency and range feat, not something that's AP.

"Veldora's Probability Manipulation opposed the energy that was capable of destroying the universe. The fact it opposed that is what makes the tier fine."

Yeah, and Instant Death is capable of destroying the multiverse.

Again, please actually say why it would be AP. You're making such a simple question so much more complicated than it has to be.

"This is literally repeating the exact same points that we have already agreed do not work. You are adding nothing new to the discussion."

I am literally saying the same thing about you, this has been discussed repeatedly multiple times over the years Yogiri's had a profile.

Can you actually discuss why we should keep it? You keep literally just stating the most ambiguous and vague responses you can in order to reply to these points. Instead of trying to just constantly compare Yogiri to other people, why don't you just go over the context of it and why you think it's legitimate AP? If your entire reasoning is just "he destroyed a multiverse," then that's particularly weak when you are being met with skepticism. As I said, this was more of a question that I'm wanting to discuss. This is not a CRT, and I only said I'd make one if the answer was not particularly a good one. You don't need to be so dismissive and defensive when it's relatively a simple question.

 

[Firephoenixearl]

I agree with the OP here. Because there is a difference between a large dude and crushing the multiverse on its own. We treat crushing the universe as AP, we don't treat death haxing people as AP no matter how large the dude is. Yogiri's death hax would simply be called "4D" (low 2-C as baseline), because within the dimensional level haxes work unless resistances are present. In this case they're not, so for Yogiri to have 2-A death manip for death haxing a dude that was as large as a mutliverse would be the equivalent of having 5-B via death manip cus you death haxed a dude as large as a planet, which needless to say isn't how we treat it.

 

[TOAAPRESENCE1]

My TES sense was tingling

 

[Oblivion_Of_The_Endless]

I agree with the OP here. Because there is a difference between a large dude and crushing the multiverse on its own. We treat crushing the universe as AP, we don't treat death haxing people as AP no matter how large the dude is. Yogiri's death hax would simply be called "4D" (low 2-C as baseline), because within the dimensional level haxes work unless resistances are present. In this case they're not, so for Yogiri to have 2-A death manip for death haxing a dude that was as large as a mutliverse would be the equivalent of having 5-B via death manip cus you death haxed a dude as large as a planet, which needless to say isn't how we treat it.

But the 2-A rating is from yeeting the multiverse, not death haxing a dude

 

[Firephoenixearl]

Is it not from yeeting a dude that ate the multiverse?

 

[Oblivion_Of_The_Endless]

Is it not from yeeting a dude that ate the multiverse?

Nah, that was the old justification

 

[Firephoenixearl]

Oh so it yeets the actual multiverse now? Can you give the scan? If that's the case it can stay yes.

 

[Oblivion_Of_The_Endless]

After I get some sleep

 

[YungManzi]

Oh so it yeets the actual multiverse now? Can you give the scan? If that's the case it can stay yes.

It’s stated to be capable of destroying the multiverse. That’s what the 2-A rating is for.

 

[YungManzi]

Snip

I'm not about to argue against your conclusion, because it's using a false premise built around Instant Death being just death manipulation. If you look at his profile, feats, and are up to date with the novel you would see that's not the case and it's currently accepted as not just death manipulation.

 

[Gemstic]

I don't see what's the issue with the 2-A tier in the first place, when Yogiri can significantly affect or destroy things of that level.

Just look at the definition of 2-A:

2-A: Multiverse level+​

Characters who are capable of significantly affecting, creating and/or destroying a countably infinite number of space-time continuums.

"Significantly affect" is used as an umbrella term for feats that don't involve direct creation or destruction but are comparable to them in power, such as warping and distorting the entirety of the structure in question.

Nowhere does it say that you can't have the tier if you're using some kind of hax. All that matters is the level of influence your power has. In Yogiri's case, the hax can cause a destruction that is equivalent to directly destroying a multiverse level+ structure. Not to mention, attacking with a hax is still an 'attack', and AP means 'attack potency'. Simple as that.

Also, according to what you said, haxes like Death Manipulation aren't tied to things like AP of the target, and they should not be tied to their size, either (if a paper has no resistance to fire, just igniting a portion of it is enough to burn the whole thing immediately; you don't need to set the whole paper on fire to turn it to ashes). Then, why does PMMM supporters bring up Madoka's size each and every time to declare victory over Yogiri (when she doesn't even have resistance to death manipulation to begin with)? Following your logic, Yogiri could be the winner. I wonder if you want to create a new vs battle thread and convince them with your logic? (we've already tried it, but they keep using evasive measures)

Besides, just as Yung mentioned, 'death manipulation' is simply an application of his power; it's more a case of 'subjective reality'/'reality warping'. For example, if something moves, it could be considered living, and hence it could die (even if the target is an undead). This is one of the examples of him applying his subjective reality.

 

[PlozAlcachaz]

I'm not about to argue against your conclusion, because it's using a false premise built around Instant Death being just death manipulation. If you look at his profile, feats, and are up to date with the novel you would see that's not the case and it's currently accepted as not just death manipulation.

When did I ever say it was just Death Manipulation at all? All I said was the following below.

"All of these would be technical applications of his Death Manipulation from what I'm understanding. Also, it would be so versatile because it has a lot of applications."

That clearly was referring to how there is stuff on the profile like:

• Power Nullification (Can "kill" the powers of a target)
• Deconstruction (Can kill poison gas on a chemical level)

So no, I never said it was just Death Manipulation, stop twisting my words. I said it was his main ability and he has many ways to apply it for technical effects. You can add in the Subjective Reality thing and what's being derived is literally not that different from how I'm trying to tell you it would function. This also doesn't change the fact that despite being asked for scans for the third time, you keep refusing to post them and have consistently misrepresented what I've said to make it sound like this is a dumb discussion. The only thing dumb about it though is the fact we've had almost 40 replies though and not a single person has posted that destruction of the multiverse statement to just shush the thread if it were wrong.

You don't have to be an asshole about it and keep trying to say people who agree with this are wrong and don't understand the ability. You could've ended this on your first reply if you posted a scan and how it would apply to AP.

 

[Oblivion_Of_The_Endless]

I didnt know you wanted the scan of the multiverse destruction, I can search it up for you if you want (now that I have slept a bit). Im not sure if its relevant to your argument though, since Im pretty sure it comes from his usual power that he uses to destroy anything else, I guess.

 

[PlozAlcachaz]

I didnt know you wanted the scan of the multiverse destruction, I can search it up for you if you want (now that I have slept a bit). Im not sure if its relevant to your argument though, since it probably comes from his usual power that he uses to destroy anything else, I guess.

Well, it would be nice just for the context. Depending on how it's explained, I might be inclined to agree with the 2-A stuff. I've been given differing explanations on it before and that it originally came from The Heavenly Record Eater, but I was told the justification is different now.