Xenoblade upgrade.

[Lasatar]

Now, I'm not talking about upgrading Shulk or Zanza. They're already strong enough. That can be left for another thread. I'm mainly talking about the rest of the group. Specifically Fiora.

At the end of the game, each of the characters are more than enough capable of taking out several Telethia each, which are listed as a higher tier in this wiki, meaning that the minimum tier for these characters needs to be higher than the Telethia's.

Fiora can make use of Meyneth's powers, and Meyneth is comparable to the Mechonis, since she basically is the Mechonis. Fiora like this was able to go toe to toe with Zanza, but did lose due to both lack of skill and the desire to protect everyone else in the group. There is nothing to state that the attack potency of Meyneth is any less than that of Zanza (with just his Monado), especially if her Monado boosted Zanza from tier 5 to tier 2.

On to the other characters, Melia has extreme control over Ether, and was able to overload a Telethia mid-game, when she was far less powerful. After Prison Island, she takes possession of the imperial staff, which was able to destroy mass produced faced mechon with ease. It did not quite destroy Metal Face, but put him out of commision, and likely would have killed him in another shot.

When it comes to Reyn, Sharla, and Riki, none of them have any amazing feats, but Reyn is proven to have a greater durability than any of the other characters, including Shulk, able to take hits from Zanza in the final battle. The other characters can do this as well, and should have similar durability, but not as much as Reyn. Riki is physically very weak and does absolutely nothing story-wise, he from having the second highest HP in the same, so he can keep the same tier, with just an upgrade to durability. After Riki, Sharla actually has the least feats out of the characters, with her most amazing feat being partially blowing up a faced mechon (Xord) with a single shot, but that is still a higher feat than is being listed right now.

Dunban, I've sort of explained in my comment below, so refer to that. He is very hard to measure, however.

 

[Antvasima]

I think that this seems reasonable, but what, specifically, do you wish to change?

 

[Lasatar]

The tier and many of the stats for Fiora, maybe the Tier and some of the stats for Melia, and the durability for all of them. Shulk's speed should also scale to the other characters, due to them all crossing the same amount of disdance in the solar system in a short time, and not just Shulk.

Also, I'm not really too sure about Dunban. He's one of the strongest characters in the group, but it's hard to measure his feats. He is shown to be far stronger than Metal Face/Mumkhar WITHOUT using the Monado, and this was only halfway into the game, but after that, he didn't really display any other feats, apart from being only slightly less strong than Dickson, who was able to overpower Shulk easily for a good portion of the end-game, and is said to have some of Zanza's powers. Non Monado Dunban would likely be at least tier 6, if he can overpower Metal Face (With Ether) without even trying (in fact, he managed to cut off both of Metal Face's arms almost instantly, implying that a speed upgrade is definitely in order). Dunban with the Monado was able to defeat an entire army of Mechon, including the fortress units that are stronger than Face units such as Mumkhar/Metal Face, except Yaldabaoth (Egil's Mechon). Dunban's ability to use the Monado is not limited to how far he pushes himself, but rather how long he uses it for. He was able to use the Monado for several hours without it having an effect on him, so for Monado Dunban fights, note that unless the opponent stalls for time, Dunban can still fight on. He can also transit between the Monado and a Katana at any time.

 

[Antvasima]

Most of this seems rather unspecific and speculative, so I would rather wait for more staff input.

 

[Lasatar]

I'll go through the strongest feats.

All: Can tank hits from Zanza during the final battle, who is universal level. Have speed comparable to or greater than Shulk.

Fiora: Has possession of Meyneth's power, which is comparable to Mechonis, and only slightly weaker than Zanza with one Monado.

Dunban: Overpowered Metal Face (with Ether) barely trying, cutting off both of his arms almost instantaniously. With the Monado, is able to destroy an undefined number of Mechon, some of which are more powerful than Faces. Higher speed than any other party member. Only slightly weaker than Dickson, who possesses portions of Zanza's power after Zanza possessed both Monados, and was able to overpower Monado II Shulk before Zanza possessed both Monados.

Reyn: Possess a greater durability that any other party member. Managed to block attacks from Dickson, who overpowered Monado II Shulk, and later gained portions of Zanza's power after Zanza possessed both Monados.

Melia: Able to harness enough Ether to overload any Telethia, including Disciple Lorithia who had portions of Zanza's power after Zanza possessed both Monados.

Riki: Second highest durability of the group. Not much else to say.

Sharla: Partially destroyed a faced mechon (Xord) with a single Ether Shot.

 

[Antvasima]

Well, if regular party members, who have no power-ups, managed to defeat a universal entity, despite displaying much lesser power previously, the question is whether Zanza actually had universal scale attack potency, or if he was just a glass cannon with hax that was unusable for practical combat purposes?

As for the other examples, theyi don't really tell me a lot of specifics I'm afraid.

 

[Lasatar]

I'm pretty sure that Zanza's attack potency is accurate. He destroyed the Mechonis along with Egil in one shot, with a regular attack, and that was with Bionis, which is weaker than Zanza. His stronger attacks involve both Monados. In the final battle, one of his moves was "world reconstruct" which would change the battlefield into an entirely different dimension, first taking it from the space next to Earth, to an area of Void, to an entirely new world with different skies. By defeating the guardians that he summoned, it would reset back to void, signifying that the first time it is used destroys the current universe, the second time creates a new one, but he needs something to house the power in before the new universe is stable, and so defeating those before it is stable brings it back to void. Since the characters were able to survive the destruction phase, they would have universal durability.

They couldn't kill Zanza (They needed Shulk's help for that), but they could injure him, and could survive his attacks.

 

[Lasatar]

For the other examples, take into account how much more powerful a portion of Zanza's power makes someone. When Zanza had just one Monado, a portion of his power would be a lot less than with both Monados, and yet it still allowed Dickson to overpower Shulk who was using the Monado II, meaning that a portion is comparable to Bionis in power. It is unclear wether Zanza is giving out more of his power after recieving both Monados, but it is likely.

 

[Antvasima]

Hmm. I am uncertain. I think that there was a Shulk/Xenoblade discussion earlier regarding that the other characters should not scale to Zanza, but I don't recall the specifics.

I will highlight this topic for more input.

 

[Lasatar]

Remember that there is no eveidence of universal striking strength or attack potency, only durability. A likely tier for them so scale to is perhaps tier 6 or 5 for Fiora, Dunban, and Melia, while Riki can keep the same tier, and Sharla and Reyn can move up a small amount.

Also, this is a good oppourtunity to point out that the second picture at the bottom of Shulk's page is not of Shulk, but of Zanza. Just a minor thing that annoys me.

 

[Antvasima]

Well, changing the surrounding universe, with the main characters unaffected, sound more like Plot Induced Stupidity to me, given that they could presumably be injured by much lesser forces right previously.

 

[Lasatar]

Not necessarily; in the battle with Dickson right prior to fighting Zanza, Shulk and Fiora both unlock a new power that they didn't have previously, allowing them to take him down. Many of the auras and skills in the game can be linked to other characters, who can then use them on their own, meaning that not just Shulk and Fiora could use them once unlocked (sort of like a grimoire stone in etrian odyssey). Since it is impossible to go back to old areas after fighting Dickson, there is no way of knowing if it actually boosted them or not, but when fighting memories of old bosses such as Metal Face in Memory Space (the final area), they are complete pushovers, despite being very difficult bosses earlier in the game. Since Dickson completely stomped them prior to this power, and since he lost relatively easily afterward, it's safe to assume that that is what unlocked the universal durability.

 

[Flames_of_power64]

i was thing about making this type of thread for star fox when star fox zero comes out. but i suppert upgarding the Xenoblade character.

 

[Senkoro]

Well Zanza and Mayneth did destroy the old universe of Earth (with a big bang or something) to create the Xenoverse through some experiment gone wrong. Since Alvis is the Admin of that experiment that went wrong, He could be potentially universe level.

 

[DontTalk]

In the last battle there wasn't any particular attempt shown of Zanza to realtity warp Shulk and party out of existence.

There are several possible reasons for that. PIS is one possibility, but there are also 2 others.

1. As alvis said after the fight: "Even gods are merely beings restricted to the limited power determined by providence". So basically if providence was for him to be defeated he really couldn't have changed that outcome, explaining why he couldn't just write them out of existence.

2. Alvis is the most powerful being in the verse and he decided to give Shulk the victory. He openly did so in the cut scene that decided the fight and likely also influenced the fight before (it should be his doing that Shulk gets the third monado). As such he might have made it so that Zanza couldn't just instantly destroy the humans before him, by limiting Zanzas power.


All in all it is unlikely that the others got anything close to shulks, alvis and the gods powers. They would have been relevant to the decision made in the end if they were truly equal to the gods at that point.


EDIT: I can agree to powerscaling them to Telethias though.

 

[Lasatar]

How about Fiora being scaled to Meyneth, which is comparable to Mechonis, and Dunban being powerscaled to Metal Face with Ether. It is also shown that all of the characters have a speed comparable to Shulk, especially Dunban.

Alvis does technically have more power than anyone else in that universe combined, but he technically wasn't in charge of fate. He left that to the beings such as Zanza and Meyneth. Zanza was corrupt, and he wanted fate to be shaped into a cycle of destruction and recreation, and he believed that he was the only one controlling fate. That was true for a time, until Zanza decided to reside within Shulk, partially giving Shulk his powers.

When it comes to the others, sure, they couldn't do much without Shulk, but they could still assist him, and Shulk partially relied on them. In the final battle, they are able to injure Zanza (not kill him, just injure him) despite Zanza's incredible durability, keep up with him, and take blows from him. I'm not too sure what that would scale to, but I believe that a more reliable source of info comes with the fight with Dickson.

Dickson at this point in the game possesses a portion of Zanza's power, and since it allowed him to overpower Shulk with the Monado II, it must be comparable to Bionis. During the fight, the party members (excluding Shulk and Fiora) were not able to defeat Dickson, as he was too strong, but they were able to injure him, counter his attacks, and take hits from him. Shulk did not have the Monado III at that point, only the replica Monado (Which should probably be added to Shulk's "key" section), and he needed help from the others, especially Fiora. Even after Meyneth died, Fiora still retained a fraction of her powers, still able to use skills such as Final Cross and such. Both Reyn and Dunban were able to parry Dickson's attacks, hinting that they possess a similar striking strength.

I believe that Fiora should be scaled to Mechonis, and the other characters except for Riki can be scaled to Dickson (that reminds me, Dickson doesn't have a profile. Maybe he should get one).

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

I agree to the powerscaling. If we're able to scale Tifa to Sephiroth, we should be able to scale Fiora and co.

 

[Dino_Ranger_Black]

It's just as The real cal howard said. Most FF and any RPG with mutiple playable characters in general have been scaled to the final boss or the highest feat performed, even when they aren't the main character. It's only fair the Xenoblade characters gets the same treatment.

 

[Lasatar]

K, so that's a yes? Great. We should also think about making a profile for Dickson as well.

EDIT: I forgot to add: Their durability can also be measured midgame as quite high, because they are able to take hits from Metal Face (with the Ether claws) and mass produced faced mechon (with Ether spears), despite those weapons specially designed to outright kill any being from Bionis extremely quickly, while the party is able to shrug it off, making it act simply like regular poison.

 

[Antvasima]

I trust DontTalk's judgement. It depends on what he thinks.

 

[Austrian-Man-Meat]

I agree to the powerscaling. If we're able to scale Tifa to Sephiroth, we should be able to scale Fiora and co.

This.

 

[DontTalk]

First to the speed question:

I can agree that the party is comparable in speed to shulk. I don't know if one can make a specific case for dunban being faster than shulk (given that in-game stats aren't used I don't remember if it was ever made clear otherwise), but the party should be comparable.

That said Shulk is currently ranked Unknown so...


To Fiora and Dickson: They both hold a piece of the power of the gods.

But a piece is rather hard to quantify.

Why is Monado II comparable to the Bionis again?

If it is legit then I would agree that Dickson likely should be comparable to that at that point in the game, so I guess that scaling could work. That can likely scale to the rest.


Scaling all playable characters to the end boss is something that happens, but is by no means a general rule. If it were you could scale all 721 pokemons to arceus, because they are all useable against him and are playable RPG characters.

Such things have to make sense lore wise. Reyn is a normal human with a sword. He may have gotten very superhumanly strong during the travels, but he is still just that. He can be much higher through powerscaling, but he himself has only building level showings (as said higher per powerscaling of beings he helped to defeat). So powerscaling to universe level+ for being a playable character that can game mechanics wise harm the final boss is just a too big of a stretch.

Cutscene wise Shulk is the main fighter in the battle and the only one to do damage. Fiora can at least block swings from Zanza. For the rest the argument is only that they could have participtated in the player controled fighting sequences and could do damage there. That is a weak argument.

Another question: Why is Zanza universe level+ in durability? It says he survived the destruction of his own universe, but that was when he was a human right? He didn't survive it he was reborn as a god after it was destroyed as far as I see it.

 

[Austrian-Man-Meat]

The reason the party scales to Zanza is because each and every one of them was present during the fight and they all contributed something towards it. They were present during the cutscenes and all. You cant compare the Pokemon stuff to that because I doubt all 721 Pokemon were there to fight Arceus in the first place.

Also if something has to make sense lore wise Tifa should be downgraded to Continent that is the level she is most consistent with.

Surviving the destruction of the Universe should be Universal+ in durability. He also mentioned creating/destroying many more too which he should of tanked.

 

[DontTalk]

They were present, but didn't contribute outside of gameplay mechanics. Really arguing that the party would have stood a chance against Zanza without Shulk just is completly against the plot.


Arguing over Final Fantasy with me is btw. rather pointless as I don't know the series at all and am also not particular interested in disucssing its stats.


The two normal humans that survived the destruction of the universe didn't do so through their own durability. In that case you would be claiming normal not battle trained humans in the first universe were universe level+ in durability. They didn't survive it because of durability they survived it because they were reborn as gods, after all they also gained new powers in the recreated universe they didn't have before. Basically the same as all the normal humans survived shulk recreating the universe. It had nothing to do with durability on their part.

Similar to him theoretically recreating the universe again. He doesn't need to tank his own universe recreation. After all he controls what happens.

 

[Austrian-Man-Meat]

Good point.

 

[DontTalk]

Should omnipresence be listed in Zanza's abilitys btw.?

I have deleted it for now.

 

[Antvasima]

@DontTalk So, what, if anything, do you suggest to be changed in the profiles?

 

[DontTalk]

Well, if the Monado II from Shulk is comparable to the bionis (I am still not sure about the resoning behind that) end game Rey, Sharla, Dunba, Melia, Riki, Fiora and Dickson would scale to it, I think. So that would be moon level AP and Durability, I guess?

Speed wise the group should also scale to each other, but one has to discuss which stat that would then be, given that shulk and the other top tiers are currently ranked as unknown.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay then.

 

[Lasatar]

I believe that the Monado II was comparable to the Bionis at that point for two reasons:

1. It is the same Monado that the Bionis/Zanza used in the great battle.

2. Shulk was able to defeat Egil after he had fused with the Mechonis and become a tier 5-C character.


As well as the others scaling to Dickson, Fiora should also scale to the Mechonis, due to possessing Meyneth's power.

 

[DontTalk]

Hmmm... ok. I am fine with those upgrades then. You might want to insert them as seperate keys to the eariler game version when you go around and apply the changes.

Also don't forget to note down the reason for each character.


Should Shulks second monado stats be upgraded to moon level then?

 

[DontTalk]

Another question remaining: Should we put Zanza at "At least Moon level" durability, given that the only Universe level+ attacks he survived were his own which were not directed to harm himself?

 

[Senkoro]

^ It's a circular argument, well almost. Shulk with his new Manado killed Zanza, but not in one hit. If shulk is universe level with the 3rd Manado, and Zanza took some of those attacks without dying instantly, maybe he should be universe level.

Shulk recreated the universe after he killed Zanza, but it was unknown if he required the power of all 3 Manados or if his own was enough or if he even needed a Manado because he literally poofed his third Manado out of thin air like magic.

The thing with Zanza and Mayneth is that they survived their own universes destruction and another's creation, but it's a bit hard to quantify whether that was a result of Alvis help or if being gods gave you a free pass on things like that. Original Zanza and Mayneth were the souls of the Bionis and Mechnonis. However Zanza attacked Mechonis with the Manado which is actually an ethereal blade that can change it's size and shape according to the user's will.

I guess the idea is that while I'm pretty sure Shulk should be universe level in durability, and Alvis as well, Zanza may or may not be depending on how powerful you would consider shulk when he killed Zanza.

 

[DontTalk]

Hmmm... The most important killing blow on Zanza was special, I think. Alvis did connect the three monados before that blow and Shulks monado grew to the gigantic size indicating that.

The question would be if Shulks Monado is universe level+ in striking strength or only when reality warping through the use of alvis reality warping ability's that the Monado users have access to.


For shulks durability I am not sure why you are suggesting that he is universe level+?

Alvis is pretty much an entity without body, so I am uncertain how we should apply durability for him. I guess he of all people actually has to directly be able to survive the recreation to take care of recreating everything else.

 

[Senkoro]

^ Mainly because he can rewrite the universe without being killed by it. He did end up causing a big bang in the end there, but you could argue he survived because he rewrote reality himself hence he makes the explosion non inclusive towards himself and his friends, but I wouldn't put it past him to have that kind of durability after becoming a god.

If i said that he was Universe level + because he tanked attacks from Zanza, it's also assuming that all Zanza's attack were universe level. To be honest I find Zanza harder to quantify because he had destroyed the universe but he did it accidentally. He never did it when he had two Manados, though perhaps you could argue he had no need to do that.

My theory is basically Alvis is the real god and Zanza was only borrowing his power until Shulk came along and become a god himself. Since Alvis was the original program that destroyed the original Universe with Earth in it. Since Alvis is a program he doesn't have much of a will of his own, so he follows the orders of his creators which is why he went to advise Shulk when he became god.

If we go by this line of logic, Zanza can do universe level feats by borrowing Alvis's powers over the universe.

Though this theory is kind of flawed because he doesn't actively need to borrow Alvis's power, he just accuses Alvis of betraying him at the very end presumably by telling Shulk how to beat him.

 

[Lasatar]

If we go very deep into it, we can argue that Alvis is basically a piece of equipment. He says at the end "I am Monado", the question is: Which Monado? I assume it means all three put together, which would make Alvis universal+. In profiles, equipment is counted toward a units tier and stats, and so we can argue that Shulk and Zanza are at that level.

But this is getting off topic. We're discussing Fiora and Co. Not Shulk and Zanza. Since they can be compared to Dickson, who can be compared to Bionis, we should be able to find a reasonable tier for everybody. The only one I can't see upgraded is Riki, who doesn't do anything at all during the fight.

 

[Lasatar]

I've been doing research on the matter. Zanza is not Omnipotent, nor will he be. Zanza is quite literally the Demiurge from Gnosticism, being the creator of the world, yet believing himself to be all powerful and the only god in the universe, despite not. Meyneth is Sophia, and Alvis is the Monad. Alvis is not the world's creator, but he is the most powerful being in the universe, stronger than all other characters combined.

Xenoblade is very heavily based off Gnosticism, and I believe that using the info, we can work out a few things. Once you defeat Zanza, Alvis says: "Even gods are merely beings restricted to the limited power determined by providence. That power, while great, is not unlimited". This is another reference to Gnosticism, with the Demiurge having vast amounts of power, but not being omnipotent like he says he is. Alvis is the Monad; The true god of the universe, and without a doubt is Omnipotent. He possesses power far greater than that of Zanza, and might go into far higher tiers, but that's a discussion for another time.

Zanza is definitely universe level, but he does not possess unlimited power. That much was confirmed in the game, but is supported far greater by the Demiurge in Gnosticism. I would actually reccomend doing a bit of research on it. It's actually quite interesting.

 

[Lasatar]

finally got around to those upgrades. one thing though. I need someone who has permission to go to Shulk's page and do these changes:

1. Change his Monado II stats to be comparable to Bionis.

2. Get rid of the picture that actually is a picture of Zanza.

3. Add the Replica Monado (post Mechonis core Monado) stats. Remember, it's the weapon he actually killed Dickson with, so it should be around tier 6 or 5.

 

[Antvasima]

It seems better that somebody temporarily unlocks the page, so you can do the changes. I will do so. You can leave me a message when you have finished.

 

[Lasatar]

Done. You can lock it again. Tell me if there's any problem with how it turned out.