Wind God vs Space Alien

[Ecstasy_Amphetamine]

I haven't actually voted for Fujin btw (neither has Peppersalt), I don't why I was counted but I didn't make it clear that I wasn't voting yet. But with this post, I will make it clear. Info I've gathered about Gravattack comes from a respect thread on Reddit. I recommend reading it and everything that I've wrote here.

Let's look at their AP and other related physicals first. Fujin scales to ~6.59 tons while Gravattack scales to ~7.09 tons. That's a ~0.50 difference between them with the latter having a small advantage. Not too big, but Fujin is unquantifiably higher than what he scales to. Being unharmed by having his own attacks thrown back at him, defeating several people who scale to that, and being able to handle a draining and painful to use power source multiple times with little rest between each application. The last one is more of a willpower and stamina feat, but lesser characters in AP couldn't handle it as good as he does. Still, stamina is important too.

Most of Gravattack's gravity powers focus on crushing people. Not as in making them collapse under their own mass and turn them into a crumpled ball of viscera, but like pushing a ball through a material be it solid or liquid. I actually wouldn't call it crushing but rather pushing them in a single direction and damaging them from the impact with whatever material that they're being thrown into.

As for why this is important, it's because the only time he has actually crumpled someone was with the Time Beast, which inadvertently made a black hole out of that beast as a result of his powers and the beast's powers intermingling with each other. Judging by its name and the general theory of relativity mentioned by Rook in light of the Time Beast, some temporal shenanigans definitely happened. Not to mention that the black hole wasn't his doing (technically) seeing how he couldn't control it afterwards, so black holes are out of the question. Crushing someone into a ball is not an in-character option too seeing how he doesn't crumple everyone else that he encounters. I can still see him pinning Fujin down, but here's how that doesn't entirely work.

Gravattack applies gravity in a single direction one at a time. Upward, downward, left, right, clockwise, counterclockwise, he can do just that. So if he could pin Fujin down to the earth, he would stop Fujin from getting up. And just that. He won't stop him from moving his arms in another direction to use his wind powers (which is all he needs to use them) to disrupt his focus. Only way to completely stop Fujin is to use that gravity trick he did on Time Beast before he made a black hole out of it, but the chances of him using it is just one out of several other options that he has used much more consistently than that.

Now for the gravity vs air interaction. I might as well apply it here now, but just because gravity affects air, it doesn't mean that it's already superior. Everything has adverse effects that no one could have seen coming. Looking at Gravattack's powers, I can see him manipulating the flow of Fujin's air stream attacks or arrow projectiles and sending it back to him. But Fujin has been hit by his own wind powers before and wasn't even damaged let alone affected at the slightest. How about Fujin spawning a tornado on him? Now that's where he ***** himself up.

EVenom said that gravity holds gas giants together. Hence why he have currents and other wind phenomena. But since planets have gravity that keeps their air from going away the planet's gravitational field, wouldn't that mean Fujin's attacks are just going to be naturally attracted towards this guy? Sure, he can cause Fujin's arrows and air to orbit around him then throw it back, but again Fujin has tanked his own attacks with no damage sustained. And when he spawns a tornado on this guy (whether he is far from him or in his orbit) Gravattack's gravity is going to keep the tornado alive and close to himself. He won't realize that this would be a detriment when Fujin starts making the tornado around him stronger until it begins ripping him apart with sharp winds. Not an instakill move, but it is still damaging given the small gap between them.

So how does Fujin win here? The fight starts with Gravattack not being able to stop Fujin from using his powers when pinning him down or manipulating his gravity in any way that we've seen from his feats. Tossing him around or into an environmental hazard gets countered by flight and his air powers btw. It does start with Fujin being partially able to affect Gravattack with his powers. Wind attacks that flow towards him like a beam or a projectile won't work and it gets tossed to the wind or back to him (to no avail) but razor sharp tornadoes spawned on him are going to be his eventual doom.

Perhaps one may argue that Gravattack can nullify Fujin's wind powers once they have been cast. Like for example, if Gravattack gets caught in a tornado while in his planet form, he can just stop using it and get floated up and shredded as a result of not holding it back. Okaaaaay, maybe he can lessen the gravity in an area to lessen the influence of wind in it? That might work, but wind is everywhere for Fujin to control. Gravattack can't hold a significantly large area with his power to fully disable the influence of wind.

Als,o I haven't even considered Fujin's charisma yet, which he can use to convince Gravattack to stop fighting. This would take a full conversation though, so maybe he'd use this carefully.

So all in all, Fujin's got this via tornadoes, skill, stamina, environmental circumstances, charisma, and being able to exploit his enemy's powers.

 

[Greenshifter]

Info I've gathered about Gravattack comes from a respect thread on Reddit.

Meh ability-wise pretty sure I’m more knowledgeable than the guy working with Dargoo. I have access to feat directory after all (which compiles basically a lot of Ben 10 scaling and feats) if need be.

Still, stamina is important too.

Gravattack’s damage-wise stamina should scale to Brainstorm who was still standing after getting shot in the brain for a minute straight.

Crushing someone into a ball is not an in-character option too seeing how he doesn't crumple everyone else that he encounters.

Ben will obviously use his powers in the way best suited in the moment and SBA means that killing is a more valid option than it usually is.

He won't stop him from moving his arms in another direction to use his wind powers (which is all he needs to use them) to disrupt his focus

He would only be able to slide his arms across the floor and would barely be able to do any movements with his hands, if he does use a wind attack, it will get drawn to the ground as well due to area of effect.

He won't realize that this would be a detriment when Fujin starts making the tornado around him stronger until it begins ripping him apart with sharp winds. Not an instakill move, but it is still damaging given the small gap between them

If Gravattack just orbits the tornado around him then he won’t get damaged since he is where the wind is not (tornadoes/storms are also weakest in the center). Only Fujin will be sucked into the tornado and potentially sustain damage or be disoriented.

Als,o I haven't even considered Fujin's charisma yet, which he can use to convince Gravattack to stop fighting. This would take a full conversation though, so maybe he'd use this carefully.

Ben is Nr. 1 certified egoist in the show. He’d probably go no lol. That said Gravattack’s species is known for negotiating, but I don’t see a scenario where Ben just doesn’t fight back if he gets attacked so at best this leads to incon.

Now here’s how I see Gravattack winning the fight.
Only without the getting distracted part, he’d probably just keep slamming Fujin into the ground till he stays down without him being able to do anything lol.

 

[DontTalkDT]

Let's look at their AP and other related physicals first. Fujin scales to ~6.59 tons while Gravattack scales to ~7.09 tons. That's a ~0.50 difference between them with the latter having a small advantage. Not too big, but Fujin is unquantifiably higher than what he scales to. Being unharmed by having his own attacks thrown back at him, defeating several people who scale to that, and being able to handle a draining and painful to use power source multiple times with little rest between each application. The last one is more of a willpower and stamina feat, but lesser characters in AP couldn't handle it as good as he does. Still, stamina is important too.

Is he, though?

I assumed he either scales to this or to Vilgax being two times some prior form that scales to this.

And AP isn't the only relevant stat here. As other said, Gravattack has high LS.

Most of Gravattack's gravity powers focus on crushing people. Not as in making them collapse under their own mass and turn them into a crumpled ball of viscera, but like pushing a ball through a material be it solid or liquid. I actually wouldn't call it crushing but rather pushing them in a single direction and damaging them from the impact with whatever material that they're being thrown into.

I see feats of crushing against the ground, throwing them around, pulling them into orbit and launching stuff at people, though?

As for why this is important, it's because the only time he has actually crumpled someone was with the Time Beast, which inadvertently made a black hole out of that beast as a result of his powers and the beast's powers intermingling with each other. Judging by its name and the general theory of relativity mentioned by Rook in light of the Time Beast, some temporal shenanigans definitely happened. Not to mention that the black hole wasn't his doing (technically) seeing how he couldn't control it afterwards, so black holes are out of the question. Crushing someone into a ball is not an in-character option too seeing how he doesn't crumple everyone else that he encounters. I can still see him pinning Fujin down, but here's how that doesn't entirely work.

Gravattack applies gravity in a single direction one at a time. Upward, downward, left, right, clockwise, counterclockwise, he can do just that. So if he could pin Fujin down to the earth, he would stop Fujin from getting up. And just that. He won't stop him from moving his arms in another direction to use his wind powers (which is all he needs to use them) to disrupt his focus. Only way to completely stop Fujin is to use that gravity trick he did on Time Beast before he made a black hole out of it, but the chances of him using it is just one out of several other options that he has used much more consistently than that.

I mean, while crushing him against the ground doesn't completly incapacitate that stuff still will do damage and disrupt Fujin in whatever he was priorly doing.

Tossing him around or into an environmental hazard gets countered by flight and his air powers btw.

How would it, if Gravattack is the stronger one?

 

[Ecstasy_Amphetamine]

Gravattack’s damage-wise stamina should scale to Brainstorm who was still standing after getting shot in the brain for a minute straight.

IIRC we don't scale stamina unless proven otherwise. Check the Stamina page and come back to me if there's a solid reasoning for him to scale his stamina to another character.

He would only be able to slide his arms across the floor and would barely be able to do any movements with his hands, if he does use a wind attack, it will get drawn to the ground as well due to area of effect.

That's still all he needs to use his powers.

His wind powers don't always originate from his body. He manipulates preexisting wind as well, so the area unaffected by his gravity would be a problem.

If Gravattack just orbits the tornado around him then he won’t get damaged since he is where the wind is not (tornadoes/storms are also weakest in the center). Only Fujin will be sucked into the tornado and potentially sustain damage or be disoriented.

Fujin's tornados don't work like IRL ones. If you're caught inside one of his tornadoes, you get shredded and flayed. No logic in there but that's how it really works. He wouldn't be damaged by his own wind either (if that's what you mean) and there's no way he's getting disoriented when he frequently spins himself around his own wind.

Ben is Nr. 1 certified egoist in the show. He’d probably go no lol. That said Gravattack’s species is known for negotiating, but I don’t see a scenario where Ben just doesn’t fight back if he gets attacked so at best this leads to incon.

Okay.

I see feats of crushing against the ground, throwing them around, pulling them into orbit and launching stuff at people, though?

But that's exactly what I'm saying though? Not sure what you're trying to say here.

I mean, while crushing him against the ground doesn't completly incapacitate that stuff still will do damage and disrupt Fujin in whatever he was priorly doing.

Damage that he can take and wouldn't entirely disrupt him when he just casts again?

How would it, if Gravattack is the stronger one?

If he gets tossed into some environmental hazard like lava, he just shields himself with a pocket of wind and flies back afterwards. I'm not talking about countering his gravity with his powers.

Is he, though? I assumed he either scales to this or to Vilgax being two times some prior form that scales to this. And AP isn't the only relevant stat here. As other said, Gravattack has high LS.

I have no idea. I got mine from reading the verse page's calculations in the Original series. Two times the result of the latter would be City Block level already btw, but I don't know Ben 10 scaling.

 

[Greenshifter]

stamina to another character.

Or I could just argue if Ben loses stamina it carries between transformations so it applies to all of them?

He manipulates preexisting wind as well, so the area unaffected by his gravity would be a problem.

I guess this would be somewhat fair and a problem, could you give an example though?

Fujin's tornados don't work like IRL ones. If you're caught inside one of his tornadoes, you get shredded and flayed.

Could you give an example?

If he gets tossed into some environmental hazard like lava, he just shields himself with a pocket of wind and flies back afterwards. I'm not talking about countering his gravity with his powers.

What about Gravattack not letting go of his grip as to prevent him from shielding?

 

[Ecstasy_Amphetamine]

Or I could just argue if Ben loses stamina it carries between transformations so it applies to all of them?

I guess this would be somewhat fair and a problem, could you give an example though?

Could you give an example?

What about Gravattack not letting go of his grip as to prevent him from shielding?

I don't know what you mean by that, please do explain.

That's just how his powers work, he simply commands the surrounding air to work his powers, not generating air from his body or with magic. But if you're skeptical about that, there's one example in his notable attacks/techniques > abilities > wind god's powers section, where he manipulates the air in one's lungs. That's already preexisting air.

Find it in the same section above. Also this one.

That would require enough exposure to his powers to eventually come up with that. He won't do that without prior knowledge or after knowing how his power works. He does use some of his air powers without doing hand movements beforehand, so I doubt that would work too.

 

[Artorimachi_Meteoraft]

Grava fra

 

[EnderLord8]

grace

 

[Greenshifter]

I don't know what you mean by that, please do explain.

Ben Tennyson has a stamina feat of getting shot in the brain for a minute. It doesn’t matter what alien it was in since mentally the damage carries between transformations.

That's just how his powers work, he simply commands the surrounding air to work his powers, not generating air from his body or with magic. But if you're skeptical about that, there's one example in his notable attacks/techniques > abilities > wind god's powers section, where he manipulates the air in one's lungs. That's already preexisting air.

Oh ok so it’s just air manipulation. I meant more along the lines of doing so with a thought.

Find it in the same section above. Also this one.

The wind actually hits them cause it’s a small tornado. That won’t be the case with Gravattack using gravity manipulation around himself.

That would require enough exposure to his powers to eventually come up with that. He won't do that without prior knowledge or after knowing how his power works. He does use some of his air powers without doing hand movements beforehand, so I doubt that would work too.

Ben uses an air manipulator as well as one of his aliens. So he knows how they fight. It’s basic knowledge that you stop the elemental manipulator from moving their hands and feet so they can’t manipulate the elements anymore. Show me the thought-based stuff please.

 

[Popted2]

ehm grace passed and the match already been added in their profiles

 

[FluffyCreatureZ]

Ben Tennyson has a stamina feat of getting shot in the brain for a minute. It doesn’t matter what alien it was in since mentally the damage carries between transformations.

Isn't this just high pain tolerance, or endurance?

 

[Greenshifter]

endurance

Now say than again, but slowly.

Edit: stamina: “the ability to sustain prolonged physical or mental effort.”

Endurance: “the ability to endure an unpleasant or difficult process or situation without giving way.”

“the capacity of something to last or to withstand wear and tear.”

It’s High pain tolerance too yes. But that’ll also fall under stamina since people with more pain tolerance can fight for longer.

That said there is also the other type of stamina when it comes to exertion of strength and in that Ben does actually vary between aliens.

 

[FluffyCreatureZ]

Now say than again, but slowly.

Edit: stamina: “the ability to sustain prolonged physical or mental effort.”

Endurance: “the ability to endure an unpleasant or difficult process or situation without giving way.”

“the capacity of something to last or to withstand wear and tear.”

Stamina and endurance are similar but different.

 

[Greenshifter]

You wouldn’t classify getting shot in the brain and still standing afterwards and having the willpower to try and attack as “the ability to sustain prolonged physical or mental effort”?

 

[FluffyCreatureZ]

You wouldn’t classify getting shot in the brain and still standing afterwards and having the willpower to try and attack as “the ability to sustain prolonged physical or mental effort”?

You said he was being attacked for a minute. That would qualify for endurance.

 

[Greenshifter]

Meh I see where you are coming from but here we essentially treat it as a subset of stamina for a lack of better options I guess:

Stamina-page: “Stamina, encompassing endurance and tolerance, is a factor that heavily depends on one's own body, the way it stores and burns energy and how it reacts to external stimuli, fatigue, stress and more. This usually is the product of a specific training, lifestyle and physiology, featuring differences even among the members of the same species, and thus it heavily depends on the comformation of a single individual. On top of that, it is often related to willpower and determination, making it even more unique.”

 

[FluffyCreatureZ]

Yes I forgot to mention that I do agree that this applies to his stamina, it just classifies as endurance.