Why is Asriel's true power at least High 2-A?

[Verivici]

The difference between Multiverse Level+ and Low Complex Multiverse Level is quite literally infinite.

There's no reason to believe Asriel's true power is infinitely greater than when he was just using a fraction of this power.

 

[Antvasima]

I agree that this sounds like a false assumption.

 

[SpecN]

Hear, hear. I still agree to Asriel being 2-A, but High 2-A is the kind of tier that can only be achieved by 5-D entities and others with abilities that allow them to emulate such level of power. There is nothing yet that suggests Asriel can destroy infinite universes, as we have agreed that interpreting "countless" as "infinite" would be an overestimation.

Also, this contradicts itself. Infinity has no fraction, so if Asriel was using a fraction of his power it means that it was infinite too.

So if it does have a fraction it means that it is finite. You can't have finite power in 3-D space while being able to destroy infinite universes in said number of spatial dimensions.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

Also, this contradicts itself. Infinity has no fraction, so if Asriel was using a fraction of his power it means that it was infinite too.

So if it does have a fraction it means that it is finite. You can't have finite power in 3-D space while being able to destroy infinite universes in said number of spatial dimensions.

A fraction of infinity is still infinity. So no, this would not make Asriel less than High 2-A. Just High 2-A.

 

[SpecN]

Also, this contradicts itself. Infinity has no fraction, so if Asriel was using a fraction of his power it means that it was infinite too.

So if it does have a fraction it means that it is finite. You can't have finite power in 3-D space while being able to destroy infinite universes in said number of spatial dimensions.

A fraction of infinity is still infinity. So no, this would not make Asriel less than High 2-A. Just High 2-A.

So how is it "a fraction of his power" if a fraction of his power and his full power are equal? That would make him "powering up" and showing his true form absolutely redundant and nonsensical. If he wasn't using his full power at first then it means his power is finite, and if his power is finite within 3-D space it means he couldn't possibly be High 2-A, which is a rank of power for 5-D entities and others with abililities that could emulate a level of power similar to being 5-D in 3-D space.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

So how is it "a fraction of his power" if a fraction of his power and his full power are equal? If he wasn't using his full power at first then it means his power is finite, and if his power is finite within 3-D space it means he couldn't possibly be High 2-A, which is a rank of power for 5-D entities and others with abililities that could emulate a level of power similar to being 5-D in 3-D space.

Because he would be stronger, just to a higher degree of infinity. However, as I said, this is only a possibility, but having infinite power and dividing it by infinity is still infinity.

The Magic Gods divided their power by infinity and it became one (infinite universes to one). If Asriel's power was infinite, and he used a fraction of it that was less than an infinitely small percentage, it would still be infinite, but to a lower degree.

 

[Antvasima]

Azathoth is correct in that an infinite number of timelines qualifies as High 2-A, but a thousand times that is still High 2-A.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

Azathoth is correct in that an infinite number of timelines qualifies as High 2-A, but a thousand times that is still High 2-A.

So like I said, would High 2-A | High 2-A be acceptable?

 

[Antvasima]

Yup. That is fine.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

Done.

 

[SpecN]

So how is it "a fraction of his power" if a fraction of his power and his full power are equal? If he wasn't using his full power at first then it means his power is finite, and if his power is finite within 3-D space it means he couldn't possibly be High 2-A, which is a rank of power for 5-D entities and others with abililities that could emulate a level of power similar to being 5-D in 3-D space.

Because he would be stronger, just to a higher degree of infinity. However, as I said, this is only a possibility, but having infinite power and dividing it by infinity is still infinity.
The Magic Gods divided their power by infinity and it became one (infinite universes to one). If Asriel's power was infinite, and he used a fraction of it that was less than an infinitely small percentage, it would still be infinite, but to a lower degree.

But there's a massive, in fact, quite literally, infinite difference between Magic Gods and Asriel. The To Aru universe is at least 11-dimensional (http://toarumajutsunoindex.wikia.com/wiki/Teleport ), and full power Othinus is above it, meaning she is at least 12-dimensional, the Magic Gods are so above FP Othinus she's considered a failure and a disgrace, and their hidden dimension transcends even her influence with perfect Gungnir (she couldn't destroy it, let alone reach it.), meaning they are at least 13-dimensional entities.

The difference here is that no one in Undertale showed power beyond 3-D.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

But there's a massive, in fact, quite literally, infinite difference between Magic Gods and Asriel. The To Aru universe is at least 11-dimensional (http://toarumajutsunoindex.wikia.com/wiki/Teleport ), and full power Othinus is above it, meaning she is at least 12-dimensional, the Magic Gods are so above FP Othinus she's considered a failure and a disgrace, and their hidden dimension transcends even her influence with perfect Gungnir (she couldn't destroy it, let alone reach it.), meaning they are at least 13-dimensional entities.

The difference here is that no one in Undertale showed power beyond 3-D.

To Aru is 11-D. Magic Gods are only 5-D.

Destroying even a single timeline is 4-D, btw.

 

[SpecN]

Nope. Othinus was stated to transcend all dimensions when she achieved full power. I'll find you the quote.

Even so, High 2-A is for 5-D.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

Except no. Because Othinus is not stronger than the Magic Gods, and if you can divide your power by infinity and end up at Universe level+, that's "only" High 2-A.

Yes, which is equivalent to the highest end of Multiversal+ in power.

 

[Antvasima]

High 5-A is for 5-D and for characters that can destroy infinite 4-D continuums/timelines. The two categories tend to overlap.

 

[SpecN]

@antvasima Except there's no evidence they can destroy infinite universes. I thought we agreed on that? The whole "countless" argument?

@Azathoth Just be patient.

 

[Antvasima]

If the statistics of Asriel were explicitly shown to be infinite compared to Chara, who is 2-B, then I think that High 2-A seems reasonable.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

@antvasima Except there's no evidence they can destroy infinite universes. I thought we agreed on that?
@Azathoth Just be patient.

Being infinitely stronger than a character who can destroy even one universe is 2-A, man. Also, what I'm saying is it doesn't matter if it says Othinus transcends "all dimensions" if the Magic Gods, who are superior to her, ended up at universe+ by dividing their power by infinity. I'm fairly certain there is a thread about this.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

If the statistics of Asriel were explicitly shown to be infinite compared to Chara, who is 2-B, then I think that High 2-A seems reasonable.

Infinite compared to Omega Flowey, as well. Omega Flowey is an untold number of times stronger than Chara.

 

[Antvasima]

I think that Othinus was extensively discussed in the now disabled comment sections. DontTalk is the To Aru expert.

 

[SpecN]

@azathoth OK, tell me, where are you getting that Asriel is literally infintiely above Chara? Also, didn't you yourself just say that there "degrees" to infinity? So how do you know which degree of infinity the Magic Gods' power were divided by?

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

@azathoth OK, tell me, where are you getting that Asriel is literally infintiely above Chara? Also, didn't you yourself just say that there "degrees" to infinity? So how do you know which degree of infinity the Magic Gods' power were divided by?

Because Asriel is literally infinitely above Frisk, who is comparable to Chara, as well as being able to fight Omega Flowey.

There are degrees of infinity, but if you just say "divided by infinity", it usually just means one degree of infinity. I'm not going to argue that Asriel is 1-B because by "infinity" it meant 28 degrees of infinity.

 

[SpecN]

@Azathoth So Asriel is literally infinitely above Frisk/Chara just because? No statements? Nothing?

See, now you're assuming which degree of infinity they were talking about. You have no basis for it.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

Because statistically, not only are Asriel's stats "infinite" (while Frisk's and Flowey's can be measured), but Frisk can't even touch him, in battle.

Again, this is the same as me saying Asriel is 3078 dimensional because that's what "infinity" referred to, in that case. As Ant said, you can ask DontTalk about this, who gave a pretty lengthy explanation.

 

[Antvasima]

I agree with Azathoth. If the statistics of Asriel had read infinity^11, we could have assumed tier 1-B, much like if the Magic Gods had been stated as being divided by infinity^11 we could have assumed tier 1-B, but as it is all that was stated is a regular basic level of infinity in each case, so that is what we have to go by.

 

[SpecN]

@Azathoth And yet despite his power being infinitely above Frisk he couldn't one-shot them. What gives? Because he didn't really want to kill them so he used a weaker output? Well how do you even downgrade infinity? Something is wrong here.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

@Azathoth And yet despite his power being infinitely above Frisk he couldn't one-shot them. What gives? Because he didn't really want to kill them so he used a weaker output? Well how do you even downgrade infinity? Something is wrong here.

Because Frisk's defense > offense. This isn't surprising, considering this is the ending to the pacifist route, and Frisk explicitly has powers in the battle that bolster their defense.

Like I said, dividing infinity by infinity is one. Dividing infinity by anything less is not.

 

[Antvasima]

Regular Plot Induced Stupidity combined with The Power Of Love and The Power Of Friendship most likely.

 

[SpecN]

Oh, and about the Magic Gods:

"Carissa held something between her index and middle finger. It was a sharp fragment of

silver metal. The fragment came from Curtana Second which symbolized England and

could simultaneously cut through all dimensions."

Curtana, an artificat with power derived from the archangel Michael, can cut through all dimensions, and Othinus is ridiculously above Michael at Full Power.

As for the other quote, I have yet to find it.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

"Dimensions" in that statement is unclear if it refers to actual spatial dimensions or universes. There's also the fact that, like I said, this is contradicted by the Magic Gods dividing their power by infinity and becoming universal.

 

[Antvasima]

That most likely falls under hax, inconsistency, and unclear intention of wording, as there is no direct statement about the character in question being higher-dimensional, but regardless, given that it has been a recurrent topic, it is against the front page rules to bother us about it again.

 

[SpecN]

@Azathoth So their defense is 4-D while their offense is merely constricted to 3-D space? How does that even work?

Also, at that point the term "dimension" could only refer to spatial dimensions, not universes, because there's only one universe in To Aru, until Kamisato revealed there was more than one unfiltered universes, of which the true Magic Gods were unaware of.

 

[SpecN]

@antvasima Fine. I'll saty focused only on the topic at hand.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

@Azathoth So their defense is 4-D while their offense is merely constricted to 3-D space? How does that even work?
Also, at that point the term "dimension" could only refer to spatial dimensions, not universes, because there's only one universe in To Aru, until Kamisato revealed there was more than one unfiltered universes, of which the true Magic Gods were unaware of.

5-D and 4-D. Like I said, even ONE timeline is 4-D.

Yes, but the narrator was not. Like I said, DontTalk is a To Aru expert, and has extensively discussed this topic.

 

[Antvasima]

I think that DarkLK has done so as well, but I may misremember.

 

[WarriorWare]

This upcoming Death Battle's got me really mad at Digimon right now, so I take comfort in knowing that Asriel casually solos that verse.

 

[SpecN]

@Azathoth Being a 3-D entity with an ability that acts on a higher dimension is common in fiction. However, Frisk's defense isn't a hax, it's a stat, so how can they be part 4-D and part 5-D without a special hax? If you answer with "determination" then their profile should be adjusted accordingly. In the sense that their defense is a hax and not a stat.

Also, Jog my memory, but doesn't Asriel's stats in the second part of the fight change? Also, what is the wiki referring to in the battle information in Asriel's profile? What stats are those? (It's been a while.)

http://undertale.wikia.com/wiki/Asriel_Dreemurr

 

[DontTalk]

About dimensions in To aru:

Does to aru have higher dimension? Yes.

Does to aru have powers that influence higher dimensions? Yes. All dimension severing spell and teleportation. (which are both not tier 1 out of obvious reasons)

Did the magic gods were ever stated to be able to manipulate or influence anything higher dimensional? No.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

@Azathoth Being a 3-D entity with an ability that acts on a higher dimension is common in fiction. However, Frisk's defense isn't a hax, it's a stat, so how can they be part 4-D and part 5-D without a special hax? If you answer with "determination" then their profile should be adjusted accordingly.
Also, Jog my memory, but doesn't Asriel's stats in the second part of the fight change? Also, what is the wiki referring to in the battle information in Asriel's profile? What stats are those? (It's been a while.)

http://undertale.wikia.com/wiki/Asriel_Dreemurr

It is determination, and that's already listed on their profile, actually.

I don't remember. I remember his stats in the first part of the fight are "infinity", but I don't know if they change in the second phase (though they logically shouldn't).

 

[SpecN]

@Azathoth Their profile lists their defense as offense as if they are equal, and you suggested otherwise, that their offense is 4-D while their defense is 5-D.

As for the fight, I'll be looking more into it.