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why Haku light speed feats treated as a hyperbole
- Thread starter Omimi
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Guidebooks can make hyperboles, I'm saying such simple statements like "x is y fast" isn't hyperbolic; it's something meant to be taken literally; sure Metal Bat having infinite power could have very well been literal too. But, just because you're meant to take something literally doesn't mean you accept it as truth either. Metal Bat having infinite power is flat out anomalous, you don't need it to be hyperbolic to disprove or not accept it.Ryukama said:
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My point is not that because something is in a databook it makes it reliable, I am saying that if something is stated within a databook like the strength or speed of a character we should take it literally. Else we run the risk of simple statements like "x is y fast" being debated on whether or not they're hyperbolic (this thread.)Ryukama said:
Also, taking statements literally =/= treating these statements as true/correct (overall reliability of the statement)
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Ah right I see, then I agree with you.Ryukama said:
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Did anyone read my comment about Sasuke being able to track him?
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Plus, to add to it, Haku would only ever be LS when using the mirrors. Without them he's much much slower and since it's only with mirrors it can't scale, meaning everyone in part 1 would stay where they are. And he's still need to be at least near full strength to move at LS.
I don't mind it being discarded, I just thought it could make sense this way.
I don't mind it being discarded, I just thought it could make sense this way.
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I have a couple of observations to share, I want to know what do you think about them.
Haku showed two kind of movements during that fight: 1) Mirror to mirror and 2) mirror to anything else.
Haku used the first only to throw needles, avoiding any direct contact with Naruto or Sasuke, e.g.
[[1]] , [[2]] , [[3]]
The second was used to catch a kunai or conect stronger hits, e.g.
[[4]] , [[5]] , [[6]]
The only instances in which Haku was dodged or tagged were during a mirror to something or something to mirror. (By beast Naruto and Sharingan Sasuke)
[[7]] , [[8]] , [[9]] , [[10]] Finally, the sharingan seemed to work like aim dodging (which makes sense, since there are other moments in manga where they talk about it like anticipating the movements according to muscles contraction and Haku adopts an attack position before leaving a mirror, while Sasuke stills avoid him just barely)[[11]] , [[12]]So my conclusion, dodging and tagging Haku don't make Naruto nor Sasuke LS, but travel between mirrors could be. (The needles don't travel mirror to mirror , so those shouldn't be LS neither)I would like to know your opinion
Haku showed two kind of movements during that fight: 1) Mirror to mirror and 2) mirror to anything else.
Haku used the first only to throw needles, avoiding any direct contact with Naruto or Sasuke, e.g.
[[1]] , [[2]] , [[3]]
The second was used to catch a kunai or conect stronger hits, e.g.
[[4]] , [[5]] , [[6]]
The only instances in which Haku was dodged or tagged were during a mirror to something or something to mirror. (By beast Naruto and Sharingan Sasuke)
[[7]] , [[8]] , [[9]] , [[10]] Finally, the sharingan seemed to work like aim dodging (which makes sense, since there are other moments in manga where they talk about it like anticipating the movements according to muscles contraction and Haku adopts an attack position before leaving a mirror, while Sasuke stills avoid him just barely)[[11]] , [[12]]So my conclusion, dodging and tagging Haku don't make Naruto nor Sasuke LS, but travel between mirrors could be. (The needles don't travel mirror to mirror , so those shouldn't be LS neither)I would like to know your opinion
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Well since you provided the Viz and Fan translation, I guess I can give the raw. Here's the panel in Japanese. Now I can't do a full translation, however I can get a phrase. Haku uses ÚÅíÒü«ÕÅìÕ░ä which translates to mirror's Reflection.
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Well Rep, if whats said above is correct, I dont think this would be an outlier and it would be only something for Haku so it can't scale to other characrers.
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@ProfessorKukui4Life
The definition of an Outlier is a feat that is so far beyond or below the other feats that it would be ridiculous to use it as a rating.
At this point in the series, lightning-style ninjutsu and thrown kunais were considered extremely effective. Naruto's next best feat is Supersonic.
The definition of an Outlier is a feat that is so far beyond or below the other feats that it would be ridiculous to use it as a rating.
At this point in the series, lightning-style ninjutsu and thrown kunais were considered extremely effective. Naruto's next best feat is Supersonic.
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I know wat an Outlier is but that wouldn't be the reason Y it's not an Outlier. Here's wat I brought up before:
"To be fair wasn't Haku, like, extremely weakened when he was tagged? The mirror jutsu uses up an incredible amount of chakra and as Haku was toying with them, he was weakening too, to the point where hes so weakened he can be tagged (Haku himself even explains this). Not only that, but Sasuke was also getting used to his weakening movements via sharingan So while i understand it, I dont see how its an outlier when Haku would only be LS at his best. If hes weakened or tired he can be tagged by slower characters. It could just mean he can only be LS for a limited time and that his speed can heavily decrease when low on energy.
I dont mind it being discarded, i just thought it was weird we say its an outlier when taking this info into account."
I also proposed this:
"Plus, to add to it, Haku would only ever be LS when using the mirrors. Without them he's much much slower and since it's only with mirrors it can't scale, meaning everyone in part 1 would stay where they are. And he's still need to be at least near full strength to move at LS."
So, if what was said earlier is true, then it may not be an Outlier anymore as Haku would ONLY be LS when:
A) he's using the mirrors, otherwise without them he's at his regular speed, which is far lower.
and
B) when he's at or near his best. He can only be LS for a certain time but as demonstrated, his speed will gradually decrease as he continues to use the mirrors as the jutsu itself uses a lot of chakra, which greatly weakens Haku in the process.
And since he can only be LS using the mirrors, a jutsu only he as a Yuki clan member can use, it cannot scale over to other characters so only Haku would be this fast using the mirrors.
Now i dont mind if this isnt enough, i just thought if looked at this way it wouldnt be an outlier.
"To be fair wasn't Haku, like, extremely weakened when he was tagged? The mirror jutsu uses up an incredible amount of chakra and as Haku was toying with them, he was weakening too, to the point where hes so weakened he can be tagged (Haku himself even explains this). Not only that, but Sasuke was also getting used to his weakening movements via sharingan So while i understand it, I dont see how its an outlier when Haku would only be LS at his best. If hes weakened or tired he can be tagged by slower characters. It could just mean he can only be LS for a limited time and that his speed can heavily decrease when low on energy.
I dont mind it being discarded, i just thought it was weird we say its an outlier when taking this info into account."
I also proposed this:
"Plus, to add to it, Haku would only ever be LS when using the mirrors. Without them he's much much slower and since it's only with mirrors it can't scale, meaning everyone in part 1 would stay where they are. And he's still need to be at least near full strength to move at LS."
So, if what was said earlier is true, then it may not be an Outlier anymore as Haku would ONLY be LS when:
A) he's using the mirrors, otherwise without them he's at his regular speed, which is far lower.
and
B) when he's at or near his best. He can only be LS for a certain time but as demonstrated, his speed will gradually decrease as he continues to use the mirrors as the jutsu itself uses a lot of chakra, which greatly weakens Haku in the process.
And since he can only be LS using the mirrors, a jutsu only he as a Yuki clan member can use, it cannot scale over to other characters so only Haku would be this fast using the mirrors.
Now i dont mind if this isnt enough, i just thought if looked at this way it wouldnt be an outlier.
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I don't know much about Naruto, and even though it's just with a technique, it still strikes me as really odd that a character who amounts to fodder has speed feats vastly exceeding even the likes of Madara or Kaguya.
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Well if anything, Hakus speed would only be coming from a technique that literally only he can ever use due to it being a Kekkai Genkai bloodline technique, which has nothing to do with Madara and Kaguya. And even then he can't maintain that speed for long since it uses up a lot of chakra.
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I'm not saying he can't be lightspeed in the mirrors but if someone needs Rikage level durability or Tsunade level of Regenerationn to be teleported at light speed and survive. It be impossible for haku to survive being teleported at that speed since he is not like them or is his lightspeed teleportation different from the jug's light speed teleportation? Both move the target at light speed. Like I said though I don't mind it since its only for Haku in his mirrors but his can one teleportation jutsu hurt you but te other doesn't?
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I agree that the databook likely exaggerates with flowery language, that is common for Japanese fiction when it comes to the speed of light, rather than making statements that are meant to be taken literally in this case. It doesn't make any sense for early series Naruto and Sasuke to have reacted to Haku's attacks othervise.
Hence, I think that this should be taken as hyperbole, or at the very least a nonsensical outlier, and would appreciate if you drop the subject.
Hence, I think that this should be taken as hyperbole, or at the very least a nonsensical outlier, and would appreciate if you drop the subject.
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Well, during the time when Naruto's nine tails Chakra first leaks out, we see this, and this.
If Haku was actually lightspeed in this case, Naruto's first nine tails Charka form would be lightspeed as well in this case, which is nonsense considering characters that are shown much later within the series have moved at much slower speeds.
If Haku was actually lightspeed in this case, Naruto's first nine tails Charka form would be lightspeed as well in this case, which is nonsense considering characters that are shown much later within the series have moved at much slower speeds.
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"that is common for Japanese fiction when it comes to the speed of light"
It may be present in other databooks, or even this one. In fact, the whole Temari thing is most likely not meant to be taken in the way people think it is (Darkanine provided a coherent interpretation.) But that doesn't mean we should look at clear-cut statements such as "x is y fast" and call them out as hyperbolic when they're really anomalous. This is similar to the time when we looked at feats including pocket-dimensions being created and calling whatever's in them as "illusionary" for very vague and convoluted reasons; what I don't want, is a repeat of this.
If we're going to deal with feats, I very much prefer to handle them in the most accurate way possible; avoid using the incorrect terms to deal with them. As it can lead to extremely problematic scenarios in the future, like arguing whether or not simple clear-cut statements are hyperbolic or not; worse still, these statements may not even be anomalous or incorrect. But can be denied due to someone's improper use of hyperbole.
And please before you reply, look through my prior posts; I've very likely answered what you may say already in them.
It may be present in other databooks, or even this one. In fact, the whole Temari thing is most likely not meant to be taken in the way people think it is (Darkanine provided a coherent interpretation.) But that doesn't mean we should look at clear-cut statements such as "x is y fast" and call them out as hyperbolic when they're really anomalous. This is similar to the time when we looked at feats including pocket-dimensions being created and calling whatever's in them as "illusionary" for very vague and convoluted reasons; what I don't want, is a repeat of this.
If we're going to deal with feats, I very much prefer to handle them in the most accurate way possible; avoid using the incorrect terms to deal with them. As it can lead to extremely problematic scenarios in the future, like arguing whether or not simple clear-cut statements are hyperbolic or not; worse still, these statements may not even be anomalous or incorrect. But can be denied due to someone's improper use of hyperbole.
And please before you reply, look through my prior posts; I've very likely answered what you may say already in them.
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Again, if what's been brought up is true, then Naruto and Sasuke reacting to Haku wouldn't make it an Outlier again as Haku using the jutsu for so long decreased his speed by a large amount compared to the beginning. As well as what Shepard brought up. So if my suggestion is correct, Haku could be Light Speed (or even Podsibly LS) ONLY with the mirrors for a SHORT time (meaning if he uses the jutsu for too long his speed will decrease a lot and without them at all hes at his normal speed) and since it's with a kekkai genkai it can't scale to anyone else, not even Kaguya
But still, I don't mind this being discarded I would just like to know if this is proper to use it or not since I haven't gotten a reply back yet as to whether or not this is an okay thing. And if it isn't then I'll drop it for good.
But still, I don't mind this being discarded I would just like to know if this is proper to use it or not since I haven't gotten a reply back yet as to whether or not this is an okay thing. And if it isn't then I'll drop it for good.
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@AMM
Well, again, given that early series Naruto and Sasuke could react to the supposedly "lightspeed" attacks, the claim is very clearly inaccurate, not simply an outlier, regardless whether or not we want to argue semantics.
Hence, I strongly disagree with your interpretation, and would prefer if we continue to call these types of "false description" situations hyperbole for the sake of convenience. I am extremely unlikely to change my mind regarding this point.
Well, again, given that early series Naruto and Sasuke could react to the supposedly "lightspeed" attacks, the claim is very clearly inaccurate, not simply an outlier, regardless whether or not we want to argue semantics.
Hence, I strongly disagree with your interpretation, and would prefer if we continue to call these types of "false description" situations hyperbole for the sake of convenience. I am extremely unlikely to change my mind regarding this point.
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agreed and even if it was somehow accepted as lightspeed it would count as travel speed and not combat speed, like kizaru.
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I can't remember but isn't that what Haku used to turn Sasuke into a pincushion?
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Burning Full Fingers said:
XD thats true so i guess its completely out of the question,n LS sasuke confirmed lol jk but srsly Light speed has been debunked so much already its getting tiring , we struggle to get naruto at sub relativistic nvm LS
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The God Tiers are surely above MHS+. There just isn't enough proof or something. Also, yeah Sasuke is nowhere near light speed in Part 1 but Kukui said something about the Haku stuff that sort of makes sense. I'm just too lazy to reread the manga. And the idea of Haku blitzing Madara and Kaguya even with his mirrors sounds really strange to say the least. I don't think it's possible.
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