Whitebeard Earthquake Calcs

[Damage3245]

Some of Whitebeard's feats have been re-calced by KingTempest, resulting in multiple versions existing for his feats and the purpose of this thread is to decide which version of the calcs should be used for the verse.

Below is a list of the three feats and the calcs for them. "Current Version" referring to the calcs that are already accepted and on the verse page and "New Version" referring to the more recently created calcs by KingTempest which have all been evaluated.

Whitebeard's Shima Yurashi

• Current Version: 37.98 Teratons (6-B)
• New Version: 213.35 Teratons (High 6-B)

Whitebeard's Kaishin

• Current Version: 1.11 Teratons (Low 6-B)
• New Version: 390.8 Teratons (High 6-B)

Whitebeard's Kabutowari

• New Version: 1.2 Petatons (6-A)

As this is a Calc Group thread, please keep the discussion of this limited to Calc Group members and Staff Members. KingTempest, as a staff member and the one who calced these feats, is welcome to discuss them of course.

I'll preface that I believe there are issues with the Kabutowari calc and the re-calc of the Kaishin calc, but I'll save my arguments for posting in the thread itself.

 

[KingTempest]

KingTempest, as a staff member and the one who calced these feats, is welcome to discuss them of course.

Thank you Damage. I appreciate that.

Before I do anything, I wanna give thanks to Calaca. He was pretty much the person who gave me the idea to do the new versions for the Shima Yurashi and the Kaishin.

Shima Yurashi​

Alright so for the Shima Yurashi I feel as if that is the easiest and safest one to contest... since I made both versions.

The method of calcing it was scaling a specific portion of the ship to the Tsunami's height.
But in the original calculation, the picture doesn't clearly show that portion of the ship, and we/I assumed its height and compared it to the Tsunami.

The newer version saw one thing in the picture that was clear, the height of the ship.
The height of the ship was clear, and it could be calculated in another picture.
So what was done was that I compared the height of the ship to the Tsunami after caculating it with a few images, then I compared that height to the Tsunami.

Kaishin​

Now this one might be personal preference.

We've had several threads contesting and arguing the size of the Tsunami by comparing it to Marineford.
The issue lied in the consistencies and inconsistencies of Marineford.
The building was too small in some scenarios and too large in others, effectively making it bad for scaling.
Confused why we still stuck with it but whatever.

This method completely ignores Marineford.
During the Paramount War, Luffy and Co sail on the Tsunami in a Marine battleship and fall off of the top of the Tsunami.
With that being said, we pretty much had another way to calculate the height of the Tsunami, by calculating the height of the battleships.
So Cal angsized the ship after it started falling to find out the height, then he calculated the Tsunami's Yield.

This is safer than the other method(s), as it completely ignores Marineford as a whole.

Kabutowari​

This one was me.

I explained why this calculation was solid in the calculation.

Whitebeard sent an attack to outside of the grand line based on someone who isn't in the grand line or any other sea knowing about it.

The closest place outside of the grand line is the calm belt.

Whitebeard was smack dab in the middle of the grand line, and the calm belt is 2 oceans parallel and sidebyside to the grand line. If he's in the middle, then just divide the distance by 2.

We have a simple calc of an island size in the grand line. Use length and width given.

 

[Damage3245]

I'll address the Kabutowari calc first, in a few hours.

 

[DemonGodMitchAubin]

Thank you Damage. I appreciate that.

Before I do anything, I wanna give thanks to Calaca. He was pretty much the person who gave me the idea to do the new versions for the Shima Yurashi and the Kaishin.

Shima Yurashi​

Alright so for the Shima Yurashi I feel as if that is the easiest and safest one to contest... since I made both versions.

The method of calcing it was scaling a specific portion of the ship to the Tsunami's height.
But in the original calculation, the picture doesn't clearly show that portion of the ship, and we/I assumed its height and compared it to the Tsunami.

The newer version saw one thing in the picture that was clear, the height of the ship.
The height of the ship was clear, and it could be calculated in another picture.
So what was done was that I compared the height of the ship to the Tsunami after caculating it with a few images, then I compared that height to the Tsunami.

Kaishin​

Now this one might be personal preference.

We've had several threads contesting and arguing the size of the Tsunami by comparing it to Marineford.
The issue lied in the consistencies and inconsistencies of Marineford.
The building was too small in some scenarios and too large in others, effectively making it bad for scaling.
Confused why we still stuck with it but whatever.

This method completely ignores Marineford.
During the Paramount War, Luffy and Co sail on the Tsunami in a Marine battleship and fall off of the top of the Tsunami.
With that being said, we pretty much had another way to calculate the height of the Tsunami, by calculating the height of the battleships.
So Cal angsized the ship after it started falling to find out the height, then he calculated the Tsunami's Yield.

This is safer than the other method(s), as it completely ignores Marineford as a whole.

Kabutowari​

This one was me.

I explained why this calculation was solid in the calculation.

I am in agreement with everything here

This all seems fine to me

 

[KingTempest]

Wait a minute

Whitebeard's Kabutowari

• New Version: 320.23 Teratons (High 6-B)

This got accepted for
1.1983785850860419941 Petatons (6-A)

 

[Damage3245]

My bad, I went off the OP of the Post-Timeskip CRT which had that High 6-B value listed.

 

[Damage3245]

Okay, to address the Kabutowari calc, I'll note that while there is a lot of foundational stuff in the explanation that could make it a possible result for the feat, there is very little there which is actually conclusive or solid, or even likely.

The issue is that that specific person was ignorant of the reasons of the earthquakes, while the Paramount War was a worldwide issue.

The Paramount War being a worldwide issue yet this random man seemingly being ignorent as to the cause of the earthquakes does not necessarily mean that this man was ignorant of the Paramount War itself.

It is not stated that everyone around the world knows what Whitebeard's Devil Fruit even is.

Even in Marineford, several Marines react with confusion and shock when he cracks the air with his Devil Fruit and causes what they think is an underwater explosion. Other Marines are confused by the rumbling and subsequent approach of the tsunami that Whitebeard causes. Obviously high-level Marines like Sengoku and Garp recognize his Devil Fruit power immediately and Sengoku then goes on to tell everyone present that Whitebeard has the Tremor-Tremor fruit which is a bit superfluous if everybody there knows what power he has already.

This is not to say that Whitebeard's power is some big secret; just that if even Marines in Marineford at the center of the Grand Line can be ignorant as to his power, then civilians in a different part of the Grand Line can be as well.

We're informed it's a worldwide issue because we see that everybody in the world knows about the fight. People in the South Blue, East Blue, North Blue, West Blue, and Grand Line knew about it. Even Momonga said that the whole world could sense it. What is the one place that wasn't shown? The Calm Belt.
The Calm Belt is located right next to Marineford and Marijoa, and it's a place in the world that doesn't receive news. If literally everywhere else in the world receives news, and this place doesn't, it means that this is the only place that doesn't receive the news, which means that island is in the Calm Belt.

It is never stated that islands in the Calm Belt is the only place in the world that doesn't recieve news. Nyon states that "the News Gulls don't come to the Calm Belt so news to very hard to come by", but evidently news can come to the Calm Belt since she still recieves newspapers somehow, it's just more difficult. This does not mean the opposite; that every island in every other sea in the world recieves news instead.

Who exactly do we see on this island? One structure, two people, and some farm animals. For all we know this is an isolated family on an island by themselves and they just don't get the newspapers. In most of the other shots of people around the world discussing Whitebeard and the Paramount War, they appear to be population centers or at least areas with a good amount of people. News passes through word of mouth as well as directly from the newspapers so we can't even say that every person outside the Calm Belt has to read the newspapers. To say that because these people in each of the areas of the world know about the war, must mean that everyone in the world (outside the Calm Belt) knows about the war is a big reach.

To support that, pretty much every island on the Grand Line is a crazy island. This island seems relatively regular. Regular animals, regular landscape, etc. Completely different from everything that touches the Grand Line. On top of that, the climate and weather is tame, unlike literally every other island on the Grand Line.

We see so little of the island in question that I don't think this is a strong supporting point at all. We know next to nothing about this island's climate and weather to say that it must be completely ordinary all of the time, and we only see what appears to be a farm on the island. There is no expectation that a farm in the Grand Line must contain bizarre or unusual creatures.

Not to mention we know next to nothing of what islands in the Calm Belt are supposed to be like, so we can't say that this island has more in common with a Calm Belt island than a Grand Line island.

The one shot we have that is confirmed to be somewhere else on the Grand Line at the time of the Paramount War also looks fairly ordinary and regular from a weather/climate point of view.

---

So I get where you're coming from in the foundational basis of the calc; but it looks to me like it hinges on a big Association fallacy. "This person doesn't appear to be aware of what is causing the earthquakes. That must mean he is ignorant of the Paramount War and therefore doesn't read the news. The place where news is hard to get is the Calm Belt; therefore he's on the Calm Belt." That's how I interpret the argument being put forward.

As the entry for that type of fallacy says, while this is all possible, there is no confirmation.

1) The man could simply be ignorant of Whitebeard's abilities, not the war itself.
2) The man could simply not be aware of the news even if he did know what Whitebeard's power was; this doesn't require him to be on an island where newspapers aren't delivered to.
3) Even if the man was on an island where news isn't delivered to; it isn't proven that the newspapers travel to every island on the Grand Line.
4) The island where the man is not proven to be outside of the Grand Line just because it doesn't appear to display certain features like wacky weather or crazy creatures.

Because of these issues, I am firmly against using the calc at all, at least with its current method.

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

Bump

 

[KingTempest]

Scrap Kabutowari then. W/e

 

[Damage3245]

Thank you. I'll move on to a post for one of other two feats tomorrow.

 

[SnookB]

Not my place to talk or comment after this, but-
Why scrap it already? One calc member disagrees and one agrees. It's not like there's been a majority's word against it for it to be invalidated yet. Second time this calc's getting thrown out because of mainly frustration and very little discussion.

 

[Damage3245]

@SnookB; Well, there can be more discussion on it but KT is the one who actually made the calc and he said that it can be scrapped. He's also the only one responding to the post I made but I don't mind waiting for others to respond to it.

 

[SnookB]

Nyon states that "the News Gulls don't come to the Calm Belt so news to very hard to come by", but evidently news can come to the Calm Belt since she still recieves newspapers somehow, it's just more difficult. This does not mean the opposite; that every island in every other sea in the world recieves news instead.

1) The man could simply be ignorant of Whitebeard's abilities, not the war itself.

I just wanted to address those.
The fact that she says the News Gulls don't go there yet that's the main way the news spread about the war means the news did indeed not reach the Calm Belt. The only way she gets the papers is likely through Kuja pirates that travel outside of the island and come back.
If anything this adds merit to the fact that anyone who didn't know what was happening would just be unaware of the war altogether. The old man wasn't confused about the quakes, he was confused about "why" there are quakes to begin with.
Anyone who knows WHitebeard is aware of the fact that he can "destroy the world", as all around the world those who received news of him fighting are basically waiting to die. If that old man was aware WB was at war he'd be more or less linking the quakes to the man who's flat out said to have a world destroying ability. You can be aware of a "world destroying ability" yet not be aware of its functionality, is the point.

This: "Well marines don't know why he's cracking air so clearly being confused about earthquakes during the day of a war that the man who can destroy the world is involved in just means the bystanders don't understand his ability."
That old man is unaware that there's anything at all, which again- consistent with the fact that the only means of knowing didn't reach him despite the fact that it reached seas that could very believably be miles and miles away from him. (And all around the world really)

is a flat out false narrative. It's even a greater assumption than the more supported in canon claim of him not receiving due to the canonical evidence that he wouldn't be able to at all if he lived in a specific ocean.

Double apology for commenting again. It's the last time! That's just to get a quick point across. Best of luck with this.

 

[Damage3245]

@Romeu08; Please don't comment on this thread. It is for staff and calc group members only. I'll allow SnookB's post to stay since it is constructive and he's made it clear it is his last post, but this is not the place for "FRA" chains.

 

[Therefir]

I agree with Damage, this calc requires way to many assumptions to work, and there's basically no way to prove this person was in the Calm Belt simply because he didn't know what was causing the earthquakes.

We don't even know if the newspapers travel to every single island on the Grand Line.

 

[KingTempest]

"Whole world can sense this" (Momonga, Marine vice admiral. reliable source)

Newspapers even travel to people on sea (Strawhats)

Can reach underwater areas (FMI)

Deliver globally (Gloriossa, predecessor and advisor of warlord of the sea)

Every assumption is backed by fact

 

[Therefir]

I'm fine with using the new versions of Shima Yurashi and Kaishin, the pictures used for scaling are better than the old ones.

 

[Therefir]

"Whole world can sense this" (Momonga, Marine vice admiral. reliable source)

Is this to referring to the earthquake? Because if it was taken at face value (implying WB is shaking entire the world) then the results would be much higher than what we have.

Which I don't think it's the case.

I dislike earthquake calcs because in real life you would actually need to cause 6-A levels of destruction to create a 6-A earthquake, our calcs just ignore that aspect all together.

 

[KingTempest]

Is this to referring to the earthquake? Because if it was taken at face value (implying WB is shaking entire the world) then the results would be much higher than what we have.

The war, not the earthquake actually

 

[Damage3245]

I dislike earthquake calcs because in real life you would actually need to cause 6-A levels of destruction to create a 6-A earthquake, our calcs just ignore that aspect all together.

I get what you mean. That's a separate topic that may be with discussing but not here.

"Whole world can sense this" (Momonga, Marine vice admiral. reliable source)

Seems like a classic hyperbole to me. Whole world does not have to mean every single person on the planet.

The assumptions being backed by some foundation doesn't negate the complete lack of confirmation to the several assumptions.

 

[KingTempest]

I get what you mean. That's a separate topic that may be with discussing but not here.



Seems like a classic hyperbole to me. Whole world does not have to mean every single person on the planet.

Who said it means everyone on the planet?

It means the vast majority of the world.

And I don't see any reason to ignore that, or to assume it's on the grand line or sum

 

[Therefir]

Hmm, if they can deliver the news to underwater locations and even any random location throughout the Grand Line, then it's hard to believe it wouldn't be able to reach this person unless he was located in the Calm Belt and therefore it would never reach him.

 

[Damage3245]

Hmm, if they can deliver the news to underwater locations and even any random location throughout the Grand Line, then it's hard to believe it wouldn't be able to reach this person unless he was located in the Calm Belt and therefore it would never reach him.

As I pointed out though, the news being potentially difficult to reach where he is isn't the only reason to explain his ignorance.

It's not proof that he lives in the Calm Belt.

 

[Therefir]

That is true, this person could very well know that a war is being waged, and he wouldn't necessarily have to associate the earthquake with Whitebeard's power.

Earthquakes are a natural phenomenon and even if there was someone in this world who could cause them and was known to the public, I don't think we would automatically assume that every earthquake is caused by this person.

 

[Therefir]

Also, did the newgulls even had enough time to spread the news throughout the Grand Line? I'm asking because this person could be on the GL and still not know about the war because the newgulls simply have not reached their island yet.

 

[Damage3245]

Also, did the newgulls even had enough time to spread the news throughout the Grand Line? I'm asking because this person could be on the GL and still not know about the war because the newgulls simply have not reached their island yet.

I don't think there's any way of knowing it for sure. (Perhaps if the Gulls all had Hypersonic flight speed)

But even if the News Gulls did deliver to his island, that isn't a guarantee that this guy would read the news or put the connection together between the war and the series of earthquakes that's been happening as you said.

 

[KingTempest]

Also, did the newgulls even had enough time to spread the news throughout the Grand Line? I'm asking because this person could be on the GL and still not know about the war because the newgulls simply have not reached their island yet.

They literally were able to send it to every sea, which means it spread out throughout the entire planet.

And in that case, it would mean the distance is even larger than just to the calm belt if the seagulls didn't have time to get there.

That is true, this person could very well know that a war is being waged, and he wouldn't necessarily have to associate the earthquake with Whitebeard's power.

Earthquakes are a natural phenomenon and even if there was someone in this world who could cause them and was known to the public, I don't think we would automatically assume that every earthquake is caused by this person.

He was questioning why there were so many.
It's not like "why is there an earthquake?" It's "why is there so many"

 

[Damage3245]

@KingTempest Just to clarify, are you arguing for the calc to still be used? I thought you said to scrap it.

 

[KingTempest]

Said that out of annoyance. But like Snook said, I can't scrap a calc all because I'm annoyed

 

[Damage3245]

Said that out of annoyance. But like Snook said, I can't scrap a calc all because I'm annoyed

Okay, fair.

Not trying to annoy you, and I can appreciate that you believe the calc has a lot of logical backing to it, but there's too many assumptions and reliances on leaps of logic for the value of the calc to be solid to me.

The whole thing is not confirmed, even if we believe it to be possible.

 

[PrinceofPein]

This can be deleted, if it is not allowed,

but you can take Tempest argument from the blog and Damage argument from post #7. And call other staffs and CGM to see the two arguments preferably Staffs that have some knowledge on OP and pick which argument is more solid.
As someone who has some knowledge on OP, tbh there is no more argument either party can make, it will only lead to circles and mental gymnastics if this continues.

 

[KingTempest]

As someone who has some knowledge on OP, tbh there is no more argument either party can make, it will only lead to circles and mental gymnastics if this continues.

You'd be surprised on what a guy with free time can come up with.


I found a reason for Kabutowari.

There is flat out no islands inbetween Water 7 and Sabaody, which means that whatever island there's supposed to be near Marineford, doesn't exist.

The log pose's next island from the Straw Hats from Water 7 is Fish-Man Island. That means that from Water 7 to Sabaody, there's nothing.

This is supported by the fact that they need to go through the Florian Triangle to get there. It's noted to be a bigass ocean/sea, and the crew responds by listing the amount of food they have for the journey, implying that there's no pit stops, AKA no islands.

In every map we see, there is nothing there. No other islands to go through. Nothing. On top of that, we see that the radius of the grand line is ridiculously tiny compared to the remaining space on the maps.

They can't go through any islands, because they go in a straight line, which means that there flat out isn't any island in that path. They can't go around it or else they end up in the calm belt (which they refuse to go to), and they can't go around it either, since they say that they have to go through the Florian Triangle/ocean of ghosts.

With the info that the next island is under the Red Line, this means that there is nothing left on the grand line that's relevant enough to live there.

​

So either
A. The island that the quakes went to are not in the grand line, they're in one of the blues
B. The island that the quakes went to are behind Water 7, and half of the grand line is shorter than the distance between Water 7 and Sabaody.

 

[Damage3245]

The log pose's next island from the Straw Hats from Water 7 is Fish-Man Island. That means that from Water 7 to Sabaody, there's nothing.

The Log Pose doesn't take into account every single island otherwise it would have led them to Marineford before Fishman Island since Marineford is closer to them at that point.

In every map we see, there is nothing there. No other islands to go through. Nothing. On top of that, we see that the radius of the grand line is ridiculously tiny compared to the remaining space on the maps.

That isn't a literal map but a simplified display of only the most important and relevant islands. It isn't saying there is completely empty ocean in that area of the Grand Line except for Enies Lobby, Amazon Lily, Marineford, etc.

They can't go through any islands, because they go in a straight line, which means that there flat out isn't any island in that path. They can't go around it or else they end up in the calm belt (which they refuse to go to), and they can't go around it either, since they say that they have to go through the Florian Triangle/ocean of ghosts.

There aren't any island directly in a straight path there; that doesn't mean there aren't islands in the area at all.

 

[KingTempest]

The Log Pose doesn't take into account every single island otherwise it would have led them to Marineford before Fishman Island since Marineford is closer to them at that point.

Marineford is an island that is sitting on water. This means that it has no roots to the ground, which means that most likely it wouldn't have the minerals for the Log Pose to track it.
Can't make this assumption for the other island. It has giant mountains, which are only formed in bodies of land connected to the ground.

That isn't a literal map but a simplified display of only the most important and relevant islands. It isn't saying there is completely empty ocean in that area of the Grand Line except for Enies Lobby, Amazon Lily, Marineford, etc.

The fact that they showed the Red Line and Marijoa instantly counters that claim, as Marijoa is irrelevant in the context of the story at that point.

There aren't any island directly in a straight path there; that doesn't mean there aren't islands in the area at all.

That's a supporting statement. And with all the other context we have, it's heavily supported

 

[Damage3245]

Marineford is an island that is sitting on water.

Is this actually confirmed anywhere? I don't recall this being stated.

The fact that they showed the Red Line and Marijoa instantly counters that claim, as Marijoa is irrelevant in the context of the story at that point.

Marijoa and the Red Line are extremely important named locations and it would be weirder not to include it compared to unknown random islands.

That's a supporting statement. And with all the other context we have, it's heavily supported

It doesn't seem like it. It's only confirmation that the island isn't on their direct path, not that it supports the island being in the Calm Belt.

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

Islands don’t float on water, they’re connected to the sea floor and jut out of the water

 

[KingTempest]

Is this actually confirmed anywhere? I don't recall this being stated.

Islands don’t float on water, they’re connected to the sea floor and jut out of the water

Marineford floats on water Arc.

Damage, look at Shima Yurashi. Look under the bay. Look when WB splits Marineford in half.
It's resting on water.

Marijoa and the Red Line are extremely important named locations and it would be weirder not to include it compared to unknown random islands.

Important locations that are irrelevant in the span of the actual context of the arc, or else we'd show FMI as well.

It doesn't seem like it. It's only confirmation that the island isn't on their direct path, not that it supports the island being in the Calm Belt.

It isn't in the calm belt. I changed my mind on that. I'm saying that the distance is further than Sabaody - the Calm Belt.

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

Marineford floats on water Arc.

Yeah unfortunately that’s not proof, that’s just an unsupported claim atm.

 

[KingTempest]

Yeah unfortunately that’s not proof, that’s just an unsupported claim atm.

An unsupported claim that has literally been shown to be the case several times over, unless you think all the water under Marineford when WB tilted it was decoration or sum

 

[Damage3245]

Would you mind posting scans of the specific parts you mean?