What's going on with OP Lifting Strength

[ActuallySpaceMan42]

I was taking a look at the One Piece Lifting Strength, and I saw that Class E came from Momosuke stopping Onigashima. But I don't get why? Momosuke can fly, and used his clouds, things almost no one else has, so why is everyone scaling to this aside from Kaido?

 

[Damage3245]

The calculation being referenced in here.

I'm seeing a bit of circular scaling of Kaidou scaling to Big Mom who scales to Marco who scales to King who scales to Zoro who scales to Kaidou.

 

[ActuallySpaceMan42]

The calculation being referenced in here.

I'm seeing a bit of circular scaling of Kaidou scaling to Big Mom who scales to Marco who scales to King who scales to Zoro who scales to Kaidou.

This is the chain.

• Zoro (Class E) → scales off Kaido & Big Mom
• Kaido → scales off Big Mom
• Big Mom → scales off Marco
• Marco → scales off Ace (Class T) & King
• King → scales off Jack, Queen, Zoro
• Jack → Class T
• Queen → scales off Luffy & Sanji
• Sanji → scales off Queen & King
• Luffy → Class P

A lot of circular or straight-up incorrect scaling.

But also, Kaido should be the only one who scales to this lifting feat, which is confusing me.

 

[Kachon123]

This is the chain.

• Zoro (Class E) → scales off Kaido & Big Mom
• Kaido → scales off Big Mom
• Big Mom → scales off Marco
• Marco → scales off Ace (Class T) & King
• King → scales off Jack, Queen, Zoro
• Jack → Class T
• Queen → scales off Luffy & Sanji
• Sanji → scales off Queen & King
• Luffy → Class P

A lot of circular or straight-up incorrect scaling.

But also, Kaido should be the only one who scales to this lifting feat, which is confusing me.

This is a physical feat for Momonosuke.

Dragon Kaidou scales above Momonosuke.

Zoro scales to Kaidou

Big Mom is relative to Kaidou and scales above Marco

Marco scales to King

King scales to Zoro

Sanji scales to King and Queen

Luffy scales to Kaidoi

 

[Godernet]

I think it was due to the LS provided by the Flame Clouds produced by Momo not being enough to stop Onigashima, so Momo required some of his own physical strength in Dragon form to assist with the feat.

With Dragon Form Kaido being stronger than Dragon Form Momo, which I doubt is controversial given he is just a far more experienced and more powerful individual than Momo base to base, and many people scaling to Dragon Form Kaido via overpowering him, matching him, or stating to be a physical rival of Kaido in general.

 

[Damage3245]

Dragon Kaidou scales above Momonosuke.

Zoro scales to Kaidou

Why does Zoro scale to full dragon form Kaidou's lifting strength?

 

[ActuallySpaceMan42]

This is a physical feat for Momonosuke.

Dragon Kaidou scales above Momonosuke.

Zoro scales to Kaidou

Big Mom is relative to Kaidou and scales above Marco

Marco scales to King

King scales to Zoro

Sanji scales to King and Queen

Luffy scales to Kaidoi

Yeah, but there are problems with this.

I can understand Kaidou scaling above Momonosuke, but why does Zoro scale at all?

The fact that this feat was done with a mixture of flight, cloud usage, and physical strength means almost no one can replicate this feat aside from Kaidou.

 

[Kachon123]

Why does Zoro scale to full dragon form Kaidou's lifting strength?

Zoro could deflect and overpower Dragon Kaidou's tornados and the body movements he was doing to create them.

Hybrid Kaidou is physically stronger than Dragon Kaidou. Zoro could briefly hold back a combined attack from Hybrid Kaidou and Big Mom. He could also parry his attacks with Asura.

 

[Damage3245]

Zoro could deflect and overpower Dragon Kaidou's tornados and the body movements he was doing to create them.

Scan for this?

Hybrid Kaidou is physically stronger than Dragon Kaidou. Zoro could briefly hold back a combined attack from Hybrid Kaidou and Big Mom. He could also parry his attacks with Asura.

What makes you say that Hybrid Kaidou has higher lifting strength than Dragon Kaidou?

 

[ActuallySpaceMan42]

Zoro could deflect and overpower Dragon Kaidou's tornados and the body movements he was doing to create them.

Can you be a bit more specific?

From what I remember, Zoro stopped Kaidou's tornado by hurting him, not overpowering him. Even then, that would be equivalent to Kaido's body weight. The dragon twisters he deflected, obviously wouldn't scale to Kaidou's lifting strength.

Hybrid Kaidou is physically stronger than Dragon Kaidou. Zoro could briefly hold back a combined attack from Hybrid Kaidou and Big Mom. He could also parry his attacks with Asura.

As for the combined attack of Big Mom and Kaidou, do we scale non-physical attacks like that to lifting strength? It was a haki blast.

 

[Kachon123]

Scan for this?

Here.

What makes you say that Hybrid Kaidou has higher lifting strength than Dragon Kaidou?

His Vivre Card states that his physical abilities are greatly enhanced in Hybrid form

 

[Damage3245]

As for the combined attack of Big Mom and Kaidou, do we scale non-physical attacks like that to lifting strength? It was a haki blast.

It was also a Striking Strength feat from them that he blocked, not a sustained Lifting Strength feat.

 

[Damage3245]

Here.

That definitely wouldn't scale to Kaidou's Lifting Strength.

Deflecting an air slice? Hitting Kaidou after he was no longer moving to create those twisters?

His Vivre Card states that his physical abilities are greatly enhanced in Hybrid form

Yes, compared to his base form they would be. That seems to be what it is saying to me.

 

[Kachon123]

Yes, compared to his base form they would be. That seems to be what it is saying to me.

Why would it be comparing it to his base form??

 

[Godernet]

I mean, Momo was able to pull Kaido's flame clouds in the opposite direction they were intended to go, showing at the very least that his Zoan form physical strength should edge out even when compared to the flame clouds.

Even if we say that the feat was half clouds, half momo's strength, wouldn't it just be half the value at worst?

And I feel like it wouldn't be hard to get Hybrid Kaido the full value either, considering how much stronger he is than Base(which can still compete with fellow GTs just at a lower level of relativity.) or Dragon form (stronger than the Momo who is prolly stronger than the flame clouds.)

Also, Asura Zoro still physically clashes with Hybrid Kaido's strikes in ch 1010.

 

[Kachon123]

Greenbull was able to fully overpower Momonosuke, there's that as well.

 

[Damage3245]

Why would it be comparing it to his base form??

It makes the most sense to me.

"When transformed into a hybrid form, the already high physical abilities are further enhanced. A full-force strike infused with Haki possesses unimaginable destructive power...!!"

Kaido in base form has high physical capabilities; his hybrid transformation would enhance that with his Zoan powers. Shifting from full dragon form to hybrid form doesn't have a reason to enhance it.

 

[ActuallySpaceMan42]

This is the scene from the anime, which I think makes it clear that Kaido was hardly moving when Zoro cut him, and is just Kaido recoiling from being hit.

I mean, Momo was able to pull Kaido's flame clouds in the opposite direction they were intended to go, showing at the very least that his Zoan form physical strength should edge out even when compared to the flame clouds. Even if we say that the feat was half clouds, half momo's strength, wouldn't it just be half the value at worst?

Yeah, like I said, Kaido and Momo scaling to one another is fine.

It's people scaling to them that I'm finding issues with.

Also, Asura Zoro still physically clashes with Hybrid Kaido's strikes in ch 1010.

They're clashing, I don't think it would scale Zoro to Kaido's Lifting Strength.

 

[Godernet]

Yeah, like I said, Kaido and Momo scaling to one another is fine.

It's people scaling to them that I'm finding issues with.

I mean, if Momo is still half-scaled physically, there are still a lot of people who overpower Dragon Form Kaido.

Like G5 Luffy, Kidd with Slam Gibson, Zoro briefly overpowers him in a clash with Asura, Big Mom clashed with him, and then went on to fight him for days, etc.

They're clashing, I don't think it would scale Zoro to Kaido's Lifting Strength.

Is it not the case where two people who have a clash of strength scale to each other in physical AP and LS?

I've always thought that was the case since pushing and pulling feats are a part of gauging LS, and clashing would be an example of two people pushing against one another with the same force they would be using to push or shove a heavy object.

Excerpt from LS page: In other words, it measures the amount of upward force a character can produce. As such pushing and pulling feats are also considered a part of this statistic, granted they are properly calculated to account for the difference to lifting.

 

[ActuallySpaceMan42]

Is it not the case where two people who have a clash of strength scale to each other in physical AP and LS?

I've always thought that was the case since pushing and pulling feats are a part of gauging LS, and clashing would be an example of two people pushing against one another with the same force they would be using to push or shove a heavy object.

Excerpt from LS page: In other words, it measures the amount of upward force a character can produce. As such pushing and pulling feats are also considered a part of this statistic, granted they are properly calculated to account for the difference to lifting.

Based on this, I don't think so; https://vsbattles.com/threads/one-punch-man-more-profile-changes.148851/#post-5462231

Unless they are physically struggling against one another, in a long contest of strength, it doesn't count as LS.

 

[Hypertornado099]

Least confusing animanga scaling

 

[Godernet]

Based on this, I don't think so; https://vsbattles.com/threads/one-punch-man-more-profile-changes.148851/#post-5462231

Unless they are physically struggling against one another, in a long contest of strength, it doesn't count as LS.

Got it, while that does definitely make sense, although I still feel like an unsuccessful attempt at swinging with force to attempt to knock someone down should count for something, LS related, that's probably the topic for a different time.

Although I still think there are a bunch of feats that would trickle these characters down to the same value anyways.

For example, we have:

• Base Luffy and Kaido clashing that split the clouds, which was supposed to mirror Roger and Whitebeard's prolonged clash of strengths that did the same, not to mention every other example of a conqueror's haki clash that splits the clouds being a prolonged clash of strength.
• Base Luffy being able to both restrain Hybrid Kaido long enough to talk with Yamato and let Momo escape.
• Base Luffy and much stronger Drunken Hybrid Kaido clash, and while Luffy does lose the clash, he holds his own at least temporarily against a much stronger Kaido than Dragon Form Kaido, let alone Dragon Form Momo.
• Base Luffy taking a downward slam from Hybrid Kaido while remaining on his feet and punching him in the face the very next panel, which isn't too unlike the MCU Thor and Hulk example brought up in that thread where Kaido is applying his strength in a downwards attack pushing on Luffy, but he fights through it to land his own attack. Although you can definitely argue this was likely a shorter timeframe of struggling between them, however that by itself shouldn't prevent scaling.

Not to mention all of the fighting Luffy and Kaido do offscreen, which was probably just as physical and close quarters as a lot of the fight we are shown.

All things considered, I find it hard to justify Luffy not scaling to Kaido in LS, or even other emperors who are supposed to be his equal, massively below him in LS, when in lore, there doesn't seem to be a massive gap in any stat between them that would cause an exploitable means of defeating each other and they all view each other as powerful individuals that would be difficult to take out.

We get Big Mom and Kaido fighting for an extended period of time when they meet, giving some credit to that.

Not to mention other characters with their own feats, like Kidd RKOing Kaido in Dragon Form and slamming Big Mom with his Slam Gibson and Punk Gibson techniques, respectively.

And IIRC, G5 Luffy does clash with Lucci in the very next arc, who goes on to fight Zoro, with Egghead only being a short time later with the characters not really having the time or reason to have gotten massively stronger after recovering from the events of Wano and sailing to Egghead.

 

[KingTempest]

Every single one of y’all are wrong regarding the scaling

Momonosuke doesn't scale directly due to his clouds being able to move Onigashima
He scales due to counteracting Kaidou's pull on the island (which scales above his own pull as Kaidou's clouds > his own clouds), which leads to him scaling to the pull of his own clouds.

It circles back to him but it's not really circular scaling. It's twisted in a weird way

 

[Godernet]

I mean, Momo was able to pull Kaido's flame clouds in the opposite direction they were intended to go, showing at the very least that his Zoan form physical strength should edge out even when compared to the flame clouds.

 

[ActuallySpaceMan42]

Momonosuke doesn't scale directly due to his clouds being able to move Onigashima
He scales due to counteracting Kaidou's pull on the island (which scales above his own pull as Kaidou's clouds > his own clouds), which leads to him scaling to the pull of his own clouds.

It circles back to him but it's not really circular scaling. It's twisted in a weird way

Well, as I said, I have no issues with the feat. The problem is everyone scaling from Kadio and Momonosuke.