Warp Star Immeasurable Peak Speed (Kirby Series)

[James_Plays_4_Games]

Following up on this thread: "Smash Bros: Immeasurable speed revision." In the Kirby series, the following probably should be applied to the speed of Warp Stars and any character who has a Warp Star as equipment:
"up to Immeasurable via the maximum "warp" speed of the Warp Star (According to the series' creator Masahiro Sakurai, the movement of Warp Stars has always canonically been able to "defy the laws of physics" and "warp" ever since the original Kirby's Dream Land, having been shown to teleport after flying for a few seconds. This same canon "warp" speed is directly attributed to what helped Kirby non-canonically "outrun" Galeem's light during Super Smash Bros. Ultimate: World of Light)"

Some side notes:

• The Warp Star moving at this "warp" speed is probably meant as in something like when a character moves faster than light with the scientifically accurate effect of warping space-time (and performing feats of super speed that "defy the laws of physics"), which adds that distinct effect and is unlike when a Warp Star normally flies at faster than light speed without warping space-time. The VS Battles Wiki also ranks characters with this distinction in mind, with the Super Friends iteration of Superman being an example. There are zero characters in the Kirby series who have canonically been able to react to the Warp Star moving at this higher than usual speed, so it doesn't directly scale to anyone's own speed.
• The footage I linked from Kirby's Dream Land can easily be interpreted as one of those times when a character flies out of the atmosphere and we see a twinkle in the sky, rather than outright teleportation. However, this is the closest moment I found to what Masahiro Sakurai confidently said was present in the game. I wouldn't have came up with this interpretation without the statement by him, but I don't see how flying to the starry sky equates to suddenly appearing from a waterfall in a high structure. I have a strong feeling this specific scene is what Mr. Sakurai was referring to, and it only may seem a different way because of graphics limitations.

 

[StrymULTRA]

I do not get the purpose of this thread. Is this for Smash Bros or canon Kirby, because if the former everyone already is Immeasurable.

 

[James_Plays_4_Games]

I do not get the purpose of this thread. Is this for Smash Bros or canon Kirby, because if the former everyone already is Immeasurable.

This content revision thread is for the main canon iteration of Kirby from his own series, because the statement by Masahiro Sakurai I linked was referring to this iteration of Kirby in addition to the Super Smash Bros. iteration.

 

[Bernkastelll]

I disagree, just because the Warp Star in Smash is Immeasurable doesn't means the canon Warp Star is also that fast

This is like saying Canon Jack Sparrow should be multiversal because his Kingdom Hearts version is that strong

 

[StrymULTRA]

Ok this is really, really weird because we're technically making a cross-scale through two entirely different series, though this one has the benefit of the doubt because it was made not only by the same author, but:

• There are copy abilities that are references to Smash Bros in the canon Kirby, like ESP (which is blatantly Ness) and Smash Bros from where Kirby gets his Smash Moveset (which is something that was created entirely in Smash as Smash 64 is Kirby's first introduction in N64, which is true as Smash 64 released in 21/01/99 while the 1st N64 Kirby Game was instead released in 24/03/00)
• There's Master Hand as a boss (though I am not saying they're the same in power lol)

Though there are some contradictions there, the main one being Kirby not being able to use the Smash moves that he uses normally in Smash, implying they're meant to be different incarnations, same with Master Hand as a side effect (unless more info on MH comes out but I heavily doubt Sakurai has ever said "hey the MH you fight in Smash is the same as the Kirby one!"), especially given that both Sakurai and Iwata said that the Smash versions are toys and not the real ones.

I disagree, just because the Warp Star in Smash is Immeasurable doesn't means the canon Warp Star is also that fast

This is like saying Canon Jack Sparrow should be multiversal because his Kingdom Hearts version is that strong

I mean... you get this:

All the fighters perish at once in “World of Light,” but there wouldn’t be much of a story if one of them didn’t survive. So why did I choose Kirby? “It must be because you created the Kirby series!” …I thought you might say that. But from a game design perspective, and based on process of elimination, Kirby was the obvious choice.

We needed a solid, convincing reason for why said character could outrun Galeem. All fighters possessing “normal” abilities were immediately disqualified. Given that its assault enveloped the ends of the galaxy, only a vehicle that could defy the laws of physics would work. Even short-distance teleportation wouldn’t be enough.

Some of you may have forgotten, but Kirby’s Warp Star has been able to, y’know, warp since his very first game. That alone made him a pretty solid contender. The only other two fighters that could have survived would have been Bayonetta or Palutena. That said, Bayonetta’s enemies from Purgatorio (a hellish other world) were turned into Spirits, so it wouldn’t have made sense for her to escape. Other divine beings like Hades were also turned into Spirits, so there was no way Palutena could have survived, too.

Plus, it would have been difficult to use Bayonetta or Palutena as the starting character. The first character players try has to be simple and easy to use. As you may have seen in The Smashing Life, Kirby was voted as the character they should play first. I really had no other choice than Kirby.

I don't know chief... Sakurai does seem to equate the two, and him being the author of both series kinda of... makes it more viable? I mean is still weird but the benefit of the doubt is there.

I do not want to deal enough with canon shit as Kirby is not even remotely close to a verse I know, so I'll stay neutral. I gave however more arguments, it's up to you to use them or not.

 

[Bernkastelll]

I mean... you get this:

All the fighters perish at once in “World of Light,” but there wouldn’t be much of a story if one of them didn’t survive. So why did I choose Kirby? “It must be because you created the Kirby series!” …I thought you might say that. But from a game design perspective, and based on process of elimination, Kirby was the obvious choice.

We needed a solid, convincing reason for why said character could outrun Galeem. All fighters possessing “normal” abilities were immediately disqualified. Given that its assault enveloped the ends of the galaxy, only a vehicle that could defy the laws of physics would work. Even short-distance teleportation wouldn’t be enough.

Some of you may have forgotten, but Kirby’s Warp Star has been able to, y’know, warp since his very first game. That alone made him a pretty solid contender. The only other two fighters that could have survived would have been Bayonetta or Palutena. That said, Bayonetta’s enemies from Purgatorio (a hellish other world) were turned into Spirits, so it wouldn’t have made sense for her to escape. Other divine beings like Hades were also turned into Spirits, so there was no way Palutena could have survived, too.

Plus, it would have been difficult to use Bayonetta or Palutena as the starting character. The first character players try has to be simple and easy to use. As you may have seen in The Smashing Life, Kirby was voted as the character they should play first. I really had no other choice than Kirby.

I don't know chief... Sakurai does seem to equate the two, and him being the author of both series kinda of... makes it more viable? I mean is still weird but the benefit of the doubt is there.

Well, to me it just seems he's saying that the abilities works in the same way, however, there's some interesting things, the Warp Star is able to "travel through time" with its movements, the profile says it is Time Travel, but given that the creator of Smash and Kirby are the same guy, perhaps the travel through time isn't a Time Travel but just how it works in Smash, if that's really the case then I may agree

 

[StrymULTRA]

Well, to me it just seems he's saying that the abilities works in the same way, however, there's some interesting things, the Warp Star is able to "travel through time" with its movements, the profile says it is Time Travel, but given that the creator of Smash and Kirby are the same guy, perhaps the travel through time isn't a Time Travel but just how it works in Smash, if that's really the case then I may agree

This is interesting.

However I'll tell that if this is accepted, this justification should also be put in SSB profiles, given it seems to be relevant enough imo.

 

[Iamunanimousinthat]

Sorry, but without a direct feat to back this up, I have to disagree.

 

[Bernkastelll]

Well, to me it just seems he's saying that the abilities works in the same way, however, there's some interesting things, the Warp Star is able to "travel through time" with its movements, the profile says it is Time Travel, but given that the creator of Smash and Kirby are the same guy, perhaps the travel through time isn't a Time Travel but just how it works in Smash, if that's really the case then I may agree

Sorry, but without a direct feat to back this up, I have to disagree.

what about this though?

 

[James_Plays_4_Games]

Sakurai does seem to equate the two, and him being the author of both series kinda of... makes it more viable? I mean is still weird but the benefit of the doubt is there.

This is what I believe to be the strongest point of the original post. Not that I mean the two Kirby iterations are one and the same, but that Mr. Sakurai said Kirby used the same "warp" attribute of his Warp Star in both games while equating "warp" as having the same meaning in both cases.

 

[Eseseso]

Ehhhhh...not really seeing it right now. Will wait to see what others think.

 

[Eficiente]

Sakurai talks about what it can do, sure, but most likely refers to general characterisation like "this is fast in canon, therefore its version in Smash is fast." Same with the characterisation of all characters. Both Warp Stars being able to warp simply means that both move fast, its version in Smash is still faster. I say this takes the least amount of speculation on what he might have meant. Consider how the Warp Star never moved that fast in the first game, even if, sure, it can defy the laws of physics.

Warp Stars don't have a peak speed like that, they're either used to move slowly as if walking, or they fast as if running like everything else. Sakurai's comments even hints at that with it being able to warp in the 1º game, where it simply moves fast like always. This would scale to every top-tier, which is another can of worms.

having been shown to teleport after flying for a few seconds.

• The footage I linked from Kirby's Dream Land can easily be interpreted as one of those times when a character flies out of the atmosphere and we see a twinkle in the sky, rather than outright teleportation. However, this is the closest moment I found to what Masahiro Sakurai confidently said was present in the game. I wouldn't have came up with this interpretation without the statement by him, but I don't see how flying to the starry sky equates to suddenly appearing from a waterfall in a high structure. I have a strong feeling this specific scene is what Mr. Sakurai was referring to, and it only may seem a different way because of graphics limitations.

Well, yes, it's an old game where it's hard to know what's going on. But as the games went on, you never see a Warp Star teleport its user in better graphics when we know what's going on, it always just moves really fast. Furthermore, Kirby has been tagged in Warp Stars (Nightmare, Kabula, at the start of Forgotten Land), enemies have kept up with it (Nightmare, Dark Mind, Meta Knight's flight speed in Super Star Ultra, Dark Nebula, and Jamba Heart pieces), and he has failed to catch them up on Warp Stars (Jamba Heart pieces across the story in Star Allies, chased on foot and on Warp Star from 1 end of the galaxy to the other). He doesn't use this would-be "warp" mode to move faster, like his trump card against Galeem's rays of light, that warp move doesn't exist, it just refers to its regular speed.

It should also be noted, every time it's used it isn't simply able to accelerate at full speed at once; It makes some silly moves with a characteristic sound as if charging up, and then it moves fast. That's what we see in Smash, that sound it made before apparently teleporting. It wasn't necessarily, say, activating Immeasurable speed. If anything it's weird that it wasn't already moving at full speed, but ig it's better to show that sound on-screen. And again we see that all the time in the games in the form of it simply moving fast.

 

[Iamunanimousinthat]

what about this though?

Unfortunately, it says “a different world, a different time” which would be dimensional travel without more information.

 

[Eficiente]

• I don't see how flying to the starry sky equates to suddenly appearing from a waterfall in a high structure. I have a strong feeling this specific scene is what Mr. Sakurai was referring to, and it only may seem a different way because of graphics limitations.

Well, either way it makes as much sense with and without Immeasurable speed. Where did the Warp Star land? Where did it go? We don't see Kirby land. He seems to have landed inside or close to that water off-screen, and so the next we see of him is him coming out of that waterfall. The star-like effect may be there bc, you used a Warp Star as an item.

For what is worth, that story has been remade twice in Spring Breeze from Kirby Super Star and Kirby Super Star Ultra, and Kirby doesn't do anything like that.

 

[Eficiente]

Unfortunately, it says “a different world, a different time” which would be dimensional travel without more information.

That feat is a form of time travel, see here: https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/User_blog:Eficiente/Kirby:_Magolor's_timeline_of_events#Merry_Magoland

It heavily relies on the series being nonsensical, it's nothing that should be seen as consistent. A Waddle Dee is able to time travel to the past to advertise the park, leading to Kirby & co. time traveling to the future to get there. My fav bit is how a tree moves from 1 planet to another to get there.

 

[Iamunanimousinthat]

That feat is a form of time travel, see here: https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/User_blog:Eficiente/Kirby:_Magolor's_timeline_of_events#Merry_Magoland

It heavily relies on the series being nonsensical, it's nothing that should be seen as consistent.

Yes, its a form of time travel, but It’s also a hub world transition mechanic. It’s not enough information to go on. It would be better to pull some story and gameplay example to better support this. Especially if its using a non-canon game as circumstantial evidence.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Yeah, I disagree. I don't think it's ever been shown to casually travel forward and backward in time to outright attacks that travel forward and backward in time. It doesn't quite have the same feats as the Smash Bros version or Super Hedgehogs from Sonic 2006.

 

[Eseseso]

Eficiente makes a lot of sense, so put me down as disagree.

 

[James_Plays_4_Games]

Sakurai talks about what it can do, sure, but most likely refers to general characterisation like "this is fast in canon, therefore its version in Smash is fast." Same with the characterisation of all characters. Both Warp Stars being able to warp simply means that both move fast, its version in Smash is still faster. I say this takes the least amount of speculation on what he might have meant. Consider how the Warp Star never moved that fast in the first game, even if, sure, it can defy the laws of physics.

Warp Stars don't have a peak speed like that, they're either used to move slowly as if walking, or they fast as if running like everything else. Sakurai's comments even hints at that with it being able to warp in the 1º game, where it simply moves fast like always. This would scale to every top-tier, which is another can of worms.

It should also be noted, every time it's used it isn't simply able to accelerate at full speed at once; It makes some silly moves with a characteristic sound as if charging up, and then it moves fast. That's what we see in Smash, that sound it made before apparently teleporting. It wasn't necessarily, say, activating Immeasurable speed. If anything it's weird that it wasn't already moving at full speed, but ig it's better to show that sound on-screen. And again we see that all the time in the games in the form of it simply moving fast.

Well, either way it makes as much sense with and without Immeasurable speed. Where did the Warp Star land? Where did it go? We don't see Kirby land. He seems to have landed inside or close to that water off-screen, and so the next we see of him is him coming out of that waterfall. The star-like effect may be there bc, you used a Warp Star as an item.

For what is worth, that story has been remade twice in Spring Breeze from Kirby Super Star and Kirby Super Star Ultra, and Kirby doesn't do anything like that.

Fair enough. By the way, I'm more than willing to settle for my revision proposal being a "possibly" rank instead of an outright one, if that's more acceptable as it acknowledges the likely interpretation against it. It's understandable to be skeptical of my revision proposal. Even I'm skeptical of it, and I'm the one who proposed it. Despite my own skepticism, I do see merit in the idea that Mr. Sakurai could've taken World of Light as an opportunity to flesh out the Warp Star's warp mechanic more, having the sound effect increase in pitch and having Kirby increase in strain before teleporting from Galeem as if to imply the Warp Star achieved the feat through acceleration.

Well, yes, it's an old game where it's hard to know what's going on. But as the games went on, you never see a Warp Star teleport its user in better graphics when we know what's going on, it always just moves really fast. Furthermore, Kirby has been tagged in Warp Stars (Nightmare, Kabula, at the start of Forgotten Land), enemies have kept up with it (Nightmare, Dark Mind, Meta Knight's flight speed in Super Star Ultra, Dark Nebula, and Jamba Heart pieces), and he has failed to catch them up on Warp Stars (Jamba Heart pieces across the story in Star Allies, chased on foot and on Warp Star from 1 end of the galaxy to the other). He doesn't use this would-be "warp" mode to move faster, like his trump card against Galeem's rays of light, that warp move doesn't exist, it just refers to its regular speed.

True, aside from Warp Stars having the ability to dimensional travel off-screen (to locations such as Another Dimension), which may either be through teleportation or portal creation.

 

[IDK3465]

Yeeeaaahhh... no
I doubt Sakurai's intention here was to say that the canon Warp Star and the Smash Warp Star are equal in speed. It was more so him explaining his reasoning based on what we see the canon version of the thing do. Just because another version of a character has an ability based on the original doesn't mean the original retroactively adopts all the characteristics of that other iteration.

 

[Peptocoptr27]

I agree with immeasurable, but for different reasons. This seems like decent supporting evidence though

 

[Peptocoptr27]

Yeeeaaahhh... no
I doubt Sakurai's intention here was to say that the canon Warp Star and the Smash Warp Star are equal in speed. It was more so him explaining his reasoning based on what we see the canon version of the thing do. Just because another version of a character has an ability based on the original doesn't mean the original retroactively adopts all the characteristics of that other iteration.

He did have the character's canon capabillities in mind though. Did he not bring up how Bayonetta and Palutena could have escaped via their canon abillities but decided not to have them do so for the sake of consistancy with the other characters who got captured as spirits?

 

[IDK3465]

He did have the character's canon capabillities in mind though. Did he not bring up how Bayonetta and Palutena could have escaped via their canon abillities but decided not to have them do so for the sake of consistancy with the other characters who got captured as spirits?

I’m not saying that Sakurai didn’t consider what the characters could canonically do, that fact is very evident throughout the games. I’m just saying, there’s often going to be artistic liberties in alternative versions of characters depending on the needs of that specific story. Sakurai just used the OG iterations as a starting point for him to design what the characters would be like in Smash; he didn’t simply copy them one to one with their canon selves, one look at Captain Falcon’s moveset and that should be obvious.

 

[James_Plays_4_Games]

My revision proposal will be decisively rejected at this rate, but to tie what might be a loose end in the discussion before it concludes...

I disagree, just because the Warp Star in Smash is Immeasurable doesn't means the canon Warp Star is also that fast

This is like saying Canon Jack Sparrow should be multiversal because his Kingdom Hearts version is that strong

I’m not saying that Sakurai didn’t consider what the characters could canonically do, that fact is very evident throughout the games. I’m just saying, there’s often going to be artistic liberties in alternative versions of characters depending on the needs of that specific story. Sakurai just used the OG iterations as a starting point for him to design what the characters would be like in Smash; he didn’t simply copy them one to one with their canon selves, one look at Captain Falcon’s moveset and that should be obvious.

I'm counting your disagreements anyway, but the reasons in the quotes, at least the way they're phrased, don't seem to fully dive into what I'm proposing.

It's not that my stance is something like "Mr. Sakurai wrote the Super Smash Bros. iteration of Kirby based on the main canon one, so they have equal stats," hence why the Super Smash Bros. iteration of Kirby has full immeasurable stats whereas my proposal for main canon Kirby is for him to only have access "up to" that speed through a conditional use of a Warp Star exclusively. My stance is that Mr. Sakurai believes the specific function of Warp Stars Kirby utilized to survive Galeem's attack is something that has always existed in Kirby series canon and was directly taken from canon as the justification for Kirby surviving Galeem's attack, specifically because the function has the property of being that fast.

In the spirit of your exact disagreements, you basically have to claim I'm still doing crossover scaling despite Mr. Sakurai more so giving an indirect statement of canon, as he has a certain definition of what "warp" speed is that he said has always been a canon capability of Warp Stars, but that has an extent we only discover through how it is sufficient to outspeed the feat by Galeem non-canonically. Author intent transcends what is canon and non-canon when it comes to what an author thinks certain terms generally mean. I got convinced by Eficiente's explanation that presents several flaws in my original proposal, but I still think my stance could be a possibility under the idea that Mr. Sakurai simply wanted to develop this mechanic of Warp Stars he believes they always had, which can include Mr. Sakurai not seeing previous information as limitations for items with fantastic inexplicable properties like Warp Stars.

I don't mind my revision proposal getting rejected, but at the very least, I hope you realized it isn't just a run-of-the-mill crossover scaling attempt. I had put more thought into it than that.

 

[Bernkastelll]

My revision proposal will be decisively rejected at this rate, but to tie what might be a loose end in the discussion before it concludes...



I'm counting your disagreements anyway, but the reasons in the quotes, at least the way they're phrased, don't seem to fully dive into what I'm proposing.

It's not that my stance is something like "Mr. Sakurai wrote the Super Smash Bros. iteration of Kirby based on the main canon one, so they have equal stats," hence why the Super Smash Bros. iteration of Kirby has full immeasurable stats whereas my proposal for main canon Kirby is for him to only have access "up to" that speed through a conditional use of a Warp Star exclusively. My stance is that Mr. Sakurai believes the specific function of Warp Stars Kirby utilized to survive Galeem's attack is something that has always existed in Kirby series canon and was directly taken from canon as the justification for Kirby surviving Galeem's attack, specifically because the function has the property of being that fast.

In the spirit of your exact disagreements, you basically have to claim I'm still doing crossover scaling despite Mr. Sakurai more so giving an indirect statement of canon, as he has a certain definition of what "warp" speed is that he said has always been a canon capability of Warp Stars, but that has an extent we only discover through how it is sufficient to outspeed the feat by Galeem non-canonically. Author intent transcends what is canon and non-canon when it comes to what an author thinks certain terms generally mean. I got convinced by Eficiente's explanation that presents several flaws in my original proposal, but I still think my stance could be a possibility under the idea that Mr. Sakurai simply wanted to develop this mechanic of Warp Stars he believes they always had, which can include Mr. Sakurai not seeing previous information as limitations for items with fantastic inexplicable properties like Warp Stars.

I don't mind my revision proposal getting rejected, but at the very least, I hope you realized it isn't just a run-of-the-mill crossover scaling attempt. I had put more thought into it than that.

U dont need to count my disagreement, i think I'm neutral or likely agree

Well, to me it just seems he's saying that the abilities works in the same way, however, there's some interesting things, the Warp Star is able to "travel through time" with its movements, the profile says it is Time Travel, but given that the creator of Smash and Kirby are the same guy, perhaps the travel through time isn't a Time Travel but just how it works in Smash, if that's really the case then I may agree