(WARNING REALLY REALLY LONG FORUM POST) Jugian archetypes

[Shine]

So recently I saw a lot of thing on Sonic's scaling, people claim that Sonic's verse is in the SEGA verse, which will include Persona and Night's verse, and thus connected to Sonic's verse

Persona and Night apparently have Jugian Archetypes, and they claim due to that it makes them Outerversal to Boundless

I want to ask if it's true or not, if the latter why ? and could it be add in the tiering F&Q ?

I'm gonna post their argument in the next message, it's long

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Honestly, that's kind of dependent on a lot of reaching and fan theories. Well, to be fair, there is some bearing for Sonic having connection to Nights given the numerous cameos. But trying to put Persona into the "SEGA Verse" is a massive reach. I don't think Persona or SMT really officially counts as a SEGA franchise last time it was brought up and someone tried to push for it.

 

[Shine]

Carl Jung's unconscious includes all metaphysical statements, all mythology, all philosophies , and all expressions of life that are based on psychological premises. https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/828537576054194206/844315429748080670/image0.png

The Guide On Carl Jung’s Archetypes And The Collective Unconscious

Today I’ll be wasting my time explaining to everyone and everything what Jungian’s Archetypes Are mainly because Platonic Forms/Eidos/Ideas/Solids are Overrated and I get pretty pissed on the people whomst’ve claim thou Archetypes aren’t Outerversal, it needs to ******* stop so I offer this guide to spread awareness on the knowledge of Archetypes because They Are Superior in Every way to Plato’s Little Theory.

If people didn’t know/learn the definition of bounds/boundaries and shit yet you’re gonna learn today.

Bounds Means: Usually bounds. limit or boundary: the bounds of space and time; within the bounds of his estate; within the bounds of reason. something that limits, confines, or restrains. bounds, territories on or near a boundary.

https://www.dictionary.com/browse/bounds

And just to make sure everyone knows

1

A : a limiting line : BOUNDARY —usually used in plural
For Example: The ball landed out of bounds.

B : something that limits or restrains
beyond the bounds of decency
police officers overstepping their bound

3

mathematics : a number greater than or equal to every number in a set (such as the range of a function)
also : a number less than or equal to every number in a set

So if you or something is beyond the bounds of something you are Beyond all tenses and limits that binds them and is them and hence you are Beyond them.

So if something was beyond say..... time and space itself you are Beyond the concepts and entities themselves hence are Outerversal easily unless the verse defines “time and space” as literal dimensions like Mario and Dragon Ball.

Also I’d like to say and inform that some of this may talk about infinite Hierarchies and things regarding infinity(so read the Transfitne Mathematics section when made)

And the main basis of this blog will be exploring and explaining how Archetypes are Outerversal and above Aka Type 1 Concepts

Outerversal Is Merely being beyond dimensions one way or another and for this I will be following The Vsbattles Wiki own Logic!

Through their own page on Conceptual Manipulation

What is it?

“Conceptual Manipulation is the ability to manipulate, create, and/or destroy abstract concepts. This ability has a variety of applications, ranging from not combat applicable to incredibly dominating. Conceptual Manipulation involves the manipulation of universal concepts, and not the universe directly. However, through this power, one can change the universe's fundamental principles on the highest level.

Each concept is linked with its respective "object". In this way, altering the concept will change every object in the same way the concept itself was changed, effectively altering reality on a universal, if not higher, scale.”

Possible Uses/Abilities?

Concept Creation: The ability to create concepts. By using this ability, destroyed concepts can be restored or new ones created, giving the user the ability to create fundamental principles that govern reality and the world around them. With this power, one can create a concept that is unfathomable to the current mind, changing the world to match this new conceptual universal.

Concept Alteration: The ability to manipulate, alter, or change concepts. By using this ability, concepts themselves can be changed in a variety of ways. The concept can have have an object added to it, an object taken from it, or change the current principle of the concept. If a concept is changed, the world is altered in some way to fit this new conceptual definition, though the extent of this varies by the type of concept being manipulated.

Concept Destruction: The ability to destroy or remove a concept. By using the ability concepts are removed from reality. This can be wide-spread or very targeted, either erasing the concept of an overarching fundamental principle, such as space, or an individual. When destroyed at this level, nothing can be restored without using similarly powerful conceptual creation. Conventional regeneration or resurrection, no matter how powerful, would prove impossible as the very abstract concept of the character would not exist.
Conceptual Anchoring: Being able to Use a Concept or Idea to survive the destruction of oneself, reality, existence and/or resist totaling destruction of a Concept or Exist without it thereof or Transfer ones being to another. Think like NiGHTS using Dreams to Exist whereas his Origin Of Nightmares has been destroyed in Nights Journey Into Dreams after beating Wizeman revealed in the end of the game and confirmed by Yuji Naka.

Conceptual Dwarfism/Multiplication: Using a Concept or Idea to become many, manifesting on a great scale, Those such as Higher Beings Even Beyond Dimensions Or Even greater Time and Space Itself can use lower things to manifest throughout the entirety of the very thing usually throughout existence/reality and/or nonexistence/nothingness/nullity. For Example.... Solaris From Sonic 06 is an Eternal, Transcendental and Infinite Being That is Beyond Dimensions and can destroy space and time itself easily yet uses such things to replicate and multiply becoming omnipresent.

And the Types....

1. True Platonic Concept: Such concepts, or forms, are completely transcendent of reality in every aspect. These forms are 1-A in nature, as they are beyond all spatial and temporal dimensional constructs and all of reality merely "participate" in these concepts. For example, a circular object is circular because it is "participating" in the form of "circle-ness". In this way, the alteration of these concepts will change every object of the concept across all of reality. These concepts must exist prior to and after the existence of any object of the concept.

2. False Platonic Concept: Such concepts, or forms, are mostly transcendent of reality. These concepts shape all of reality and whatever level that reality exists in, and everything in reality "participates" in these concepts. These concepts interact with their objects in the same manner as listed above. In this way, the alteration of these concepts will change every object of the concept on whatever scale has been shown.
3. Aristotelian Concept: Such concepts are abstract and govern all reality. These concepts shape everything, and changing them would either require the alteration of every object of the concept or, if manipulated directly, change all objects of the concept alongside the concept itself. These concepts, however, exist simultaneously with and are bound by the object of the concept. In this way, an abstract Aristotelian Concept can be destroyed by destroying all objects of the concept, restored by re-making an object of a previously existent concept, or changed by changing all objects of the concept across reality. This, however, does not qualify for this form of conceptual manipulation, and is rather treated as a byproduct of another action akin to a "domino effect". This type of conceptual manipulation can only be obtained if the abstract concept itself is changed directly, and not by indirect methods. For example, destroying humanity and thus "ending the concept of humanity" would not qualify, while directly "ending the concept of humanity" and thus destroying humanity would qualify.

4. Lesser Realist Concept: Such concepts are abstract, but do not govern reality. Instead, these concepts are governed by the perception of these concepts by sentient beings. Without the perception of other beings, these concepts would cease to exist. As such, these concepts are far more vulnerable and are generally lesser when compared to all other abstract concepts. However, these concepts are truly abstract, and manipulating the abstract concept itself is still conceptual manipulation. Similarly to Type 3, this type of conceptual manipulation can only be obtained if the abstract concept itself is changed directly, and not by indirect methods. For example, destroying all sentient life (or otherwise blocking all perception) and thus ending all concepts of this level would not qualify, while directly destroying all concepts of this level and thus blocking all perception would qualify.
https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Conceptual_Manipulation

So beyond all Spatial and Temporal Constructs right? Remember that, it will help in this little journey....

It would be a good idea for everyone to know the Jungian Terms

https://chalquist.com/writings/jungdefs/

Now for The Archetypes

Jungian archetypes are defined as universal, archaic symbols and images that derive from the collective unconscious, as proposed by Carl Jung. They are the psychic counterpart of instinct.

It is distinct from the personal unconscious, which arises from the experience of the individual. According to Jung, the collective unconscious contains archetypes, or universal primordial images and ideas.

Collective unconscious | Definition & Facts

Collective unconscious, term introduced by psychiatrist Carl Jung to represent a form of the unconscious (that part of the mind containing memories and impulses of which the individual is not aware) common to mankind as a whole and originating in the inherited structure of the brain.

www.britannica.com

Archetypes can only be roughly circumscribed at best. Their living meaning comes out more from their presentation as a whole than from a single formulation. Every attempt to focus them more sharply is immediately punished by the intangible core of meaning losing its luminosity. No archetype can be reduced to a simple formula. It is a vessel which we can never empty, and never fill. It has a potential existence only, and when it takes shape in matter it is no longer what it was. It persists throughout the ages and requires interpreting ever anew. The archetypes are the imperishable elements of the unconscious, but they change their shape continually.

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The Archetypes as Modes of Apprehension, Organizers of Images and Ideas; Imaginal and Ideational Phenomenology of the Eidos; Eidos Imparts Reality of Being and Power of Knowing.

The contents of the collective unconscious, the archetypes, Jung maintains, are numinous; that is, they possess a specific energy which enables them to attract the contents of consciousness to themselves; it is thus that they:

1. become perceptible to the conscious mind.
are thus responsible for arranging the contents of consciousness; they do this specifically in the form of images and ideas. Archetypes are, by definition, factors and motifs that

2. Arrange the psychic elements into certain images. The unconscious supplies as it were the archetypal form which is in itself empty and irrepresentable. Consciousness immediately fills it with related or similar representational material so that it can be perceived. For this reason archetypal ideas are locally, temporally, and

3. individually conditioned. But the ground plan of these images is universal and must be assumed to be pre-existent, since it can be demonstrated in the dreams of small children or uneducated persons who could not possibly have been influenced by tradition.

4. The pre-existent pattern is irrepresentable.
In both cases the investigator comes back to the individual, for what he is all the time concerned with are certain complex thought forms, the archetypes, which must be conjectured as the unconscious organizers of our ideas."

CW8:453, "Archetypes are typical forms of behaviour which, once they become conscious naturally present themselves as ideas and images, like everything else that becomes a content of consciousness."
CW6:791, "It thus proves to be an archetypal ideas or equivalence.
Jung says of the symbols of the dilemma of one and three1 and their reference to the psychic totality of the individual that, They indicate the presence of an archetype of like nature. . . But since this totality exceeds the individual's consciousness to an indefinite and indeterminable extent, it invariably includes the unconscious in its orbit and hence the totality of all archetypes. But the archetypes are complementary equivalents of the 'outside world 1 and 18

therefore possess a "cosmic" character. This explains
2. their numinosity and godlikeness.
In his article, Synchronicity: An Acausal Connecting Principle, Jung, citing the discontinuities of modern physics, notes that the classic scientific triad of space, time, and causality has come more and more into question. Such phenomena as radio-active decay or "half-life" appear to be causeless effects. Jung quotes Sir James Jeans3 ("Radio active breakup appeared to be an effect without a cause and suggested that the ultimate laws of nature were not even causal."), in support of his contention that this phe- nomenon belongs to the field of acausal orderedness, a conception which also includes his concept of synchronicity.

. . . synchronicity is to the other three principles as the one dimensionality of time is to the three dimension- ality of space . . . Just as the introduction of time as the fourth dimension in modern physics postulates an irrepre- sentable space-time continuum, so the idea of synchronicity with its inherent quality of meaning produces a picture of the world so irrepresentable as to be completely baffling. The advantage, however, of adding this concept is that it makes possible a view which includes the psychoid in our description and knowledge of nature

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I learned these things from these

http://www.charlesdominey.com/documents/thesis_complete.pdf And from this

There are Maps that tell you the Conjunction of these things

https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/700024972650741791/700190617145311242/image0.jpg

The ordered things within The Archetypes are Essentially Psychic Energies, those Psychic Energies Are described as containing Numbers and Quantum Structures and once a Archetype wakes up it naturally disappears. And the Self is Theorized to be The Nucleus for all Archetypes.

https://books.google.com/books?id=j...ge&q=archetypes dimensionless numbers&f=false

To read on the mother complex

And Gaea as the mother archetype

As well as the ethos theory of the all mother

Eros*

https://frithluton.com/articles/mother-complex/

The Father Complex – its Implications and Manifestations

Father complex. A group of feeling-toned ideas associated with the experience and image of father. (See also Logos.) In men, a positive father-complex very oft

frithluton.com

Jung has an Infinite Number Of Archetypes, those Archetypes are Centered and Move about within a Dream world that we create but that’s not necessarily saying the Dream itself is an Archetype or a whole Collective Unconscious.

Now Dreams In Verses like Marvel And Sega are as Established like Archetypes in how it’s described, portrayed and confirmed Like for Marvel in Dreamtime having a Conscious Pattern and having more than one type of Collective Unconscious like one for Humans, Animals, and Aliens which in Numbers are in Comparison to An Infinite Amount.

https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/700024972650741791/705657596006367243/image0.jpg

Even a Decent Universal Eternity is described as a Walking Collective Unconscious

https://images-ext-2.discordapp.net...699467141644342/702297927166722048/image0.jpg

So are the Entirety Of The Abstracts according to JM Dematteis which would make a lot of sense now that I think about it

https://images-ext-1.discordapp.net/external/FgGTwEYovjy7jED2M7wyvlSVhKtpab7OoEFFcsmW-9o/https/media.discordapp.net/attachments/661014380640600117/678351503504965636/image0.jpg

For sega there's Nights

the bosses in NID are jungian archetypes, but significantly so, NiGHTS is a Jungian Archetype Of The Shadows.

Wizeman can create things like this individualize consciousness and so on so forth things like that So Wizeman could be considered conceptual or have Conceptual abilities


the "dreams" in Nights Into Dreams Are Dreams/Worlds Of Both Collective Consciousness And Unconsciousness Let's also note Nights Dimensions is specifically mentioned as one of these assets in an Interview

EXCLUSiVE: A Yuji Naka Interview ~ For the fans « NiGHTS into Dreams .Com

NiGHTS into dreams… – 1996 Developer Interview - shmuplations.com

This NiGHTS developer interview from 1996 goes into depth about the theme of dreams, character design, and the team's initial resistance to 3D and polygons.

shmuplations.com

and It’s said the cosmology derives from the psychologists and their works, the main ones brought out was Jung, Holtz and Freud:

Lizuka Proves that this analysis is correct and even Says Carl Jung’s works is the primary foundation: and 5:56 of proves it even further.

Interview Samples

Nidcom: What were some of the challenges of creating this “dream world”?

Naka: Well, the very first designs that Oshima drew were very different from where we ended up. He interpreted the theme in a more fantastic way, a fantasy world of dreams. When I saw that, I told him that no one really has dreams like that. Dreams are usually closer to reality, and bear more of a resemblance to one’s inner psyche and subconscious. Everyone dreams, so I said let’s try and create a more natural image, something closer to the dreams we all have. The world of NiGHTS (in this game at least) derives from that way of thinking.

Iizuka: Since this was a world of “dreams” we were depicting—the mysterious world of the unconscious—we had to understand the whole thing before we could begin creating it. Take an island. If it’s a real island, it’s easy enough to create. Once we settled on the “dream” concept, though, it meant we had to design and create every detail of that island ex nihilo.
Nidcom: NiGHTS is considered to be one of the most magical, inspiring and mischievous characters Sonic Team ever created, continuing on through dreams long after the game has been won. Has NiGHTS ever appeared in your own dreams?

Yuji Naka: Of course. NiGHTS came from your dreams too. Being so, NiGHTS will keep living for a long time.

Nidcom: NiGHTS into Dreams has a lot of symbolism, you and Sonic Team did a lot of research into dream studies and Jung's Dream Archetypes. It is speculated that each character in NiGHTS is influenced by a specific Archetype. What Archetype inspired NiGHTS, if any?

Yuji Naka: NiGHTS, a hero, originated in “Shadow” which means another side of the self as defined by Jung in his dream definitions. Elliot and Claris, who have strayed from the dream world, originated from Jung’s Animus and Anima. Persona items that appear in the Wii version originate from Jung's dream theory, too.

Then there’s Persona which is incredibly blatant seriously just look into the In Game Video On Persona 4 Golden about Jungian Psychology, it’s easy peasy



Hell even Sonic has Some Archetypes Shit going on

"The bandanna also raised a lot of eyebrows, and for me this is another action adventure trope. It comes from the lone ranger, the cowboy, even the snowboarder archetypes--it's all practical as a requirement against the elements. It's kind of ingrained now in our consciousness what an action adventure character should wear, and we experimented with different items, and the bandanna really resonated with us. It comes down to a practical need of the character adventuring and not vanity."

Is Sonic Boom anything like classic Sonic?

"Ultimately, we wanted to make sure [Sonic Boom] didn't conflict with what was in canon; we wanted to reinforce it. For example, my inspiration, along with the rest of the art team's, comes from a lot of Miyazaki, Disney, and Pixar films, so we wanted to dive into some archetypal things for the environment--specifically nature versus industry. When you see more of the village and of the environments we've built, you'll see their lushness and organic quality, and that's really important to establish early on. Not only is it canon, but subliminally you want to protect that [natural beauty]. Then, when you see the robots and machinery associated with the villains, it becomes a very archetypal conflict that just fits right into the Sonic universe."

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.ga...ins-sonic-and-knuckles-new-look/1100-6418328/

And by dialogue and definition it’s not just symbolism, it’s also Archaic.

Btw Solaris in Japanese Kanji has been referred to as a Sun Archetype with a Collective Conscious Representing His Strong Will. That’s Archaic.

Anyhow

In their truest state, the Archetypes are unbound by all concepts of size, perspective and limitations. They view all of existence as a part of their will, a reality that they can mold from their place beyond perspective and change. These beings have no sense of self, no form and can never be guessed at by the denizens of lower worlds. For to them, existence is viewed as it truly is; a changeless totality where the flow of time isn't real. They’re beyond all categories of numbers (High Outerversal easily because that means they’re easily above most of not all infinite Hierarchies out there, may or may not be absolutely infinite)

For those who don’t know, Jungian world of archetypes, or what we call collective unconsciousness is not bound by space and time http://www.depthinsights.com/blog/a...-lecture-by-jungian-analyst-michael-conforti/

“It helps move past fears that prevent you from being who you are When you enter the world of archetypes you leave the outer world of space and time. The archetypal world is not bound by space and time: it’s not just about your mother and father but also about archetypes that encompass the world of mothers or fathers. It’s an orientation, a destiny.”

And Archetypes are Absolutely Infinite https://books.google.com/books?id=M...hUKEwjy2aa5kufpAhWZmHIEHVCDBKcQ6AEwAHoECAwQAQ

The Possible Haxes Attained From this is; Soul Manipulation, Mid-High Godly Abstraction, Shapeshifting, Perception Manipulation, Existential Dwarfism, Precognition, Reality Manipulation, SpatioTemporal Manipulation, 1-A to High 1-A Stats, Awareness, and/or Erasure.

Tarot Cards are archetypal according to Jung https://www.jungiananalysts.org.uk/...-Archetypes-of-the-Collective-Unconscious.pdf

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The Psyche, Collective Unconscious, The Conscious and The Unconscious are comprised of Archetypes according to Jung

https://media.discordapp.net/attach...BAQBQUAQKJUEhPArldsuFi0ICAKCgCAgCAgCgoAgI.png

Once again Archetypes can be found within the collective unconscious http://appliedjung.com/root/wp-content/uploads/2016/07/The-Interpretation-of-Dreams.pdf

https://media.discordapp.net/attach...AREQAREQAREQARHIMQISuOSYUspAREAEREAEREAER.png

The Collective Unconscious is a Realm/Plane that's Dimensionless https://www.academia.edu/777290/Simplifying_complexity_Know_thyself_..._and_others

https://media.discordapp.net/attach...54530584577/g86h1WrrQCvOAAAAABJRU5ErkJggg.png

https://books.google.com/books?id=G.... Accordingly, causality ceases too."&f=false
Yes

And A Quote From C. G. Jung

https://libquotes.com/carl-jung/quote/lbv1d3l

“If we consider the psyche as a whole, we come to the conclusion that the unconscious psyche likewise exists in a space-time continuum, where time is no longer time and space no longer space. Accordingly, causality ceases too.” & “The unconscious has no time. There is no trouble about time in the unconscious. Part of our psyche is not in time and not in space. They are only an illusion, time and space, and so in a certain part of our psyche time does not exist at all. “ - Carl Gustav Jung

Tarot Cards are of the justifications of collective unconscious and archetypes of the self if it can be used for mysticism like seeing through time: https://www.faena.com/aleph/articles/carl-jungs-tarot-alchemy-and-archetypes/#

There’s more on the Relations Of Tarot Cards and Jung’s Archetypes and How Many Archetypes there are whether individual or within the Unconscious. Read up.

https://carljungdepthpsychologysite.blog/2019/10/11/carl-jung-atom-archetype-quotations/

https://www.jungiananalysts.org.uk/...-Archetypes-of-the-Collective-Unconscious.pdf

https://appliedjung.com/complex-archetype-symbol/

https://books.google.com/books?id=M...hUKEwjSyfKLoO3oAhVjdt8KHfeNDPMQ6AEwE3oECGEQAQ

https://books.google.com/books?id=z...hUKEwjSyfKLoO3oAhVjdt8KHfeNDPMQ6AEwFHoECGAQAQ

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.br....com/brand-strategy-and-jungs-archetypes/amp/

Concepts and Entities Like Dimensions, SpaceTime, Time And Space are nothing in the scope of the collective conscious, archetypes, psyche, collective unconscious and the like, by default it’s an type 1 conceptual measure without a doubt.

Boundless Circles and The Mandala (Dimensionless States) https://media.discordapp.net/attach...I4AMmIAr6D3jwxK6LBEQCIgGRgEhAJCASEAmIBP4H.png

It is Eternal and Surpasses All Bounds Of Space and Time which means they’d be beyond their infinities as well by definition.

https://media.discordapp.net/attach...945262854144/A2wkyVOoXnjEAAAAAElFTkSuQmCC.png

and among other things, dreams in jungian psychology can lead you to the psyche which proves further that Archetypes found within Dreams and Symbolism can be rectified for Outerversal Measures easily just by that.

https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/642102012816916527/672414454658629662/IOmAoetCwMAAAAABJRU5ErkJggg.png

Transinfinite Cardinalities and Sets Of All Sets and All Infinities can be Seen As Archetypes Of The Mind

https://books.google.com/books/about/Jungian_Archetypes.html?id=tLJgDAAAQBAJ Or https://books.google.com/books?id=t...ource=gbs_atb#v=onepage&q=Transfinite&f=false

Here are the Scans Of Transfinite Arithmetic Being Products and Agents Of The Archetypes, The Mind and The Unconscious (If you couldn’t see it or find it (or are too lazy to do so)).

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And Lastly

Below are Samples from this Link: https://carljungdepthpsychologysite.blog/2019/12/13/carl-jung-on-archetypes-anthology-3/

Archetypes are Beyond All Categories Of Numbers, Space, Time and Space-Time, which are also abolished which relatively means they are Beyond the Infinite Of Infinite Hierarchies Of Transfinite/Real/Imaginary/Complex Numbers meaning They are High Outerversal easily.

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Jungian Terms | chalquist.com

Website of Dr Craig Chalquist, author, presenter, terrapsychologist, and enchantivist.

chalquist.com

More shit on Jungian Archetypes

Apparently Jung’s Own Philosophy and Workings Of “Numbers” are Completely different and beyond the original and mathematical workings

“In the evening after dinner, we somehow got onto the subject of numbers which, C.G. said, had a life of their own. ~E.A. Bennet, Meetings with Jung, Page 158
There is no reason why whole numbers possess certain meanings or qualities, and no reason why elephants or men should exist. These arrangements are simply there as given facts, like the crystalline systems or the discontinuities of physics, even as the whole of creation is a “just-so story.” ~Carl Jung, Letters Vol. II, Page 355.

I have got stuck, on the one hand, in the acausality (or “synchronicity”) of certain phenomena of unconscious provenance and, on the other hand, in the qualitative statements of numbers, for here I set foot on territories where I cannot advance without the help and understanding of the other disciplines. ~Carl Jung, Letters Vol. II, Pages 351-352.

Like all the inner foundations of judgment, numbers are archetypal by nature and consequently partake of the psychic qualities of the archetype. ~Carl Jung, Letters Vol. II, Pages 327-329.

It would be a worthy task for a mathematician to collect all the known properties of numbers and also all their “inescapable” statements which should be quite possible up to 10-and in this way project a biological picture of whole numbers. ~Carl Jung, Letters Vol. II, Pages 327-329.

It is a mathematical structure, which first made me hit on the idea that the unconscious somehow avails itself of the properties of whole numbers. ~Carl Jung, Letters Vol. II, Pages 327-329.

From this it appears that whole numbers are individuals, and that they Possess properties which cannot be explained on the assumption that they are multiple units. ~Carl Jung, Letters Vol. II, Pages 327-329.
The idea that numbers were invented for counting is obviously untenable, since they are not only pre-existent to judgment but possess properties which were discovered only in the course of the centuries, and presumably possess a number of others which will be brought to light only by the future development of mathematics. ~Carl Jung, Letters Vol. II, Pages 327-329.

The fact is that the numbers pre-existing in nature are presumably the most fundamental archetypes, being the very matrix of all others. ~Carl Jung, Letters Vol. II, Pages 325-327.

Archetypes are not mere concepts but are entities, exactly like whole numbers, which are not merely aids to counting but possess irrational qualities that do not result from the concept of counting, as for instance the prime numbers and their behaviour. ~Carl Jung, Letters Vol. II, Page 22.

Hence the mathematician Kronecker could say: Man created mathematics, but God created whole numbers. ~Carl Jung, Letters Vol. II, Page 23.

Where numbers indicate a measure we move into the material. A concrete image is a manifestation requiring space in which the spirit clothes itself in the material in order to draw to man. ~Carl Jung, Jung-Ostrowski, Page 60.

Images and numbers are doors through which the spiritual can reach man. ~Carl Jung, Jung-Ostrowski, Page 60.

It is characteristic of the transcendent that it can be pictured and described by numbers; the passage of time, quantity, and identity, are spiritual substances. ~Carl Jung, Jung-Ostrowski, Page 60.

The character of the image is not determined by numbers. Pure spiritual substance is eternal. An image as such needs neither time nor space. ~Carl Jung, Jung-Ostrowski, Page 60.

I should like to study the theory of numbers. What is a number, an entity, a sequence, an archetype? We think we can perceive and grasp a number logically and suddenly it behaves quite differently from the way we expected. ~Carl Jung, Jung-Ostrowski, Page 55.
It is a fundamental phenomenon of mathematics that numbers are not just mathematical entities but individualities. ~Carl Jung, Jung-Ostrowski, Page 55.

We believe we are playing with equations and suddenly it transpires that certain equations express the laws of electric currents. God played and formulated currents. ~Carl Jung, Jung-Ostrowski, Page 55.

It is characteristic of the transcendent that it can be pictured and described by numbers; the passage of time, quantity, and identity, are spiritual substances. ~Carl Jung, Jung-Ostrowski, Page 60.

Do not forget that the original meaning of all letters and numbers was a magical one! Hence the “perils of the soul.” ~Carl Jung, Letters Vol. 1, Pages 528-529.

A concrete image is a manifestation requiring space in which the spirit clothes itself in the material in order to draw to man. Images and numbers are doors through which the spiritual can reach man. ~Carl Jung, Conversations with C.G. Jung, Page 60.
Numbers are autonomous. They had their life, their significance before men used them as instruments. The mathematicians continue to use them as instruments, so in that instant they become dry. Before they had their proper significance. C. G. Jung, Emma Jung and Toni Wolff – A Collection of Remembrances; Pages 51-70.

A mathematician once remarked that everything in science was man-made except numbers, which had been created by God himself.
~Carl Jung, CW 8, ¶356, note 24.

… number and synchronicity… were… always brought into connection with one another,… both possess numinosity and mystery as their common characteristics. Number has invariably been used to characterize some numinous object, and all numbers from 1 to 9 are ‘sacred,’ just as 10, 12, 13, 14, 28, 32, and 40 have a special significance. ~Carl Jung, CW 8, Para 870.
The very numbers you use in counting are more than you take them for. They are at the same time mythological entities (for the Pythagoreans they were even divine), but you are certainly unaware of this when you use numbers for a practical purpose. ~Carl Jung, CW 18, Para 461 “ - https://carljungdepthpsychologysite.blog/2019/12/11/carl-jung-on-numbers-anthology/#.X-QC28BOmEc

There’s even more insight on this. Jung Numbers >>>> Actual Numbers, things that predated us and the Eternal before their usage. numbers in Jungian Philosophy include the very passage of time, quantity, and identity. Divine Symbols, Agents Of Archetypes working onto the Unconscious Usually through the Self.

“ For our purposes in this essay, we focus on Jung’s usage and his definitions, and he defined number as: “peculiar entities with irreducible properties,”[9] “not only concepts but something more—autonomous entities which somehow contain more than just quantities…”,[10] entities that have “existed from eternity and occur ... “

https://jungiancenter.org/jung-on-n...poses in this,existed from eternity and occur

There’s more on that too

“Jung on Numbers

A mathematician once remarked that everything in science was man-made except numbers, which had been created by God himself.
Jung (1946)[1]

… number and synchronicity… were… always brought into connection with one another,… both possess numinosity and mystery as their common characteristics. Number has invariably been used to characterize some numinous object, and all numbers from 1 to 9 are ‘sacred,’ just as 10, 12, 13, 14, 28, 32, and 40 have a special significance.
Jung (1946)[2]
The very numbers you use in counting are more than you take them for. They are at the same time mythological entities (for the Pythagoreans they were even divine), but you are certainly unaware of this when you use numbers for a practical purpose.
Jung (1961)[3]

… numbers are symbols with an exceedingly important role in dreaming. They are representative of characteristic stages of the inborn healing process that Jung discovered early in his career, finalizing that idea by the time he was about fifty-three…
Gary Sparks (2010)[4]

Jung hated math. He once told Barbara Hannah that mathematics ruined the experience of school for him.[5] Given this distaste, one might expect that Jung would have ignored or dismissed numbers and anything linked to the subject. But not so! Jung had great respect for numbers, and told Marie Louise von Franz that he would have pursued an in-depth study of numbers if he were younger.[6] She eventually picked up the topic and wrote Number and Time: Reflections Leading toward a Unification of Depth Psychology and Physics.[7] How might such a unification be possible? What was it, according to Jung, that made numbers so significant? We will address these questions by first defining “number,” and particularly Jung’s definition of “number,” and then discuss the features and functions of numbers. Finally we will consider how numbers might foster a unifying of psychology and physics.
What is meant by “number”?

The dictionary offers nearly a dozen meanings for “number:” “a word or symbol used in counting,” “the amount of units,” “a quantity,” “a collection or company,” “a means of identifying a place” (e.g. the number of an apartment), “a single part of a program,” “a song or piece of music,” “a single issue f a periodical,” “any thing or person viewed apart or thought of as standing apart from a collection or company,” “the property or words that indicates whether they refer to one or more than one” (as in grammar, singular or plural), and “the regularity or beat or measure in verse or music; rhythm.”[8] We use the word “number” in a wide variety of contexts.
For our purposes in this essay, we focus on Jung’s usage and his definitions, and he defined number as: “peculiar entities with irreducible properties,”[9] “not only concepts but something more—autonomous entities which somehow contain more than just quantities…”,[10] entities that have “existed from eternity and occur regularly.”[11] Jung regarded numbers as “archetypes of order,”[12] and “mythological entities,”[13] and, as such, numbers “… are not inventions of the conscious mind but are spontaneous products of the unconscious, as has been sufficiently shown by experience.”[14] Experience is the touchstone of truth for the empiricist,[15] and in this, as in so many ways in his work, Jung came to his definitions and ideas about numbers from his personal observations in his work with patients and their dreams.
Jung also recognized that numbers are “symbols of the Self’s coming to consciousness…,”[16] with the first four numbers in particular symbolizing different “phases of the journey of the Self, different expressions of its transformation.”[17] The number 3 “… denotes the surface or flatness, whereas 4 means height or depth….”
[18] The numbers 1, 2 and 3 “characterize or produce incorporeal intelligences…”.[19] Two is associated with opposites, e.g. right and left, favorable and unfavorable, good and bad.[20]
Jung drew on “old tradition”[21] for some number symbolism, e.g. that “… the number 6 means creation and evolution, since it is a coniunctio of 2 and 3 (even and odd =female and male). Philo Judaeus therefore calls the senarius (6) the “… ‘number most suited to generation’…”.[22] Jung regarded 8 as “… a double quaternity [i.e. two 4’s] and… an individuation symbol in mandalas….”[23] Jung found other specific number symbolism in esoteric traditions like Cabalism: the cabalists saw 1 as symbolic of the spirit of the Living God; 2, as spirit from spirit; 3, water from spirit; 4, fire from water; 5, height; 6, depth, 7, East; 8, West; 9, South, and 10, North.[24] Clearly over millennia of time, and many different cultures, numbers have had a variety of meanings and significance. Significance and meaning are just two of numbers’ features. What are some others?

Some Features of Numbers

Jung thought of numbers as archetypes[25] and, as such, they were “pre-existent to consciousness.”[26] That is, they were not something humans invented, but were more something we “found or discovered.”[27] In a footnote in an essay “On the Nature of the Psyche,” Jung noted that “A mathematician once remarked that everything in science was man-made except numbers, which had been created by God himself.”[28]
Archetypes are autonomous and “condition consciousness,”[29] i.e. they spontaneously give rise to certain behaviors or reactions, independent of our ego desires, and they can pattern daily living. Hypothesizing that numbers are archetypes, Jung ventured to suggest that numbers, like other archetypes, are “spontaneously produced by the unconscious,”[30] and “show a tendency to behave in a special way.”[31]
Continuing the theme of number-as-archetype, Jung felt numbers “… possess numinosity and mystery… and all numbers from 1 to 9 are sacred,…”[32] By saying numbers have numinosity, Jung implied that numbers can link us to something larger than ourselves: the Divine, the Universe, cosmic reality. Being mysterious symbols, numbers can never be fully understood or boxed up with a simple definition.[33] Number will always elude the complete grasp of our logical minds.
Like other types of archetypes, numbers “… have existed from eternity,”[34] and “belong to both worlds, the real and the imaginary; it [number] is visible as well as invisible, quantitative as well as qualitative.”[35] While we in modern culture tend to think of numbers as simple devices to quantify reality, calculate budgets, balance the checkbook and perform various engineering and scientific endeavors, or as a way to label the days of the week, month and year, Jung saw numbers very differently: as “peculiar entities with irreducible properties.”[36] These entities have functions that go far beyond our common uses of numbers.
Some Functions of Number in Jung’s System

From decades of work with patients Jung came to see that numbers play an “exceedingly important role in dreaming,”[37]—a role that subsequent Jungian analysts have also recognized.[38] Numbers symbolize “characteristic stages of the inborn healing process that Jung discovered early in his career,…”[39]
I have seen the powerful healing role numbers can play in analysis many times in the course of my own analysis: About six months into my analysis, I began to feel something—a vague sense of frustration—but I could not put my finger on just what it was. At that time I was deep into my study of astrology and one of the books I was using was Dane Rudhyar’s Astrological Mandala,[40] which amplifies the symbols and meanings for the 360 degrees of the circle. Then, in an example of synchronicity, I had a dream one night of the number 80, and, as I worked on my dreams the following Sunday, I wondered if Rudhyar’s discussion of 80 would give me any insights. It did! I found his words very helpful, cluing me into what my problem was. Typical of the Introvert beginning an analysis, I had come to feel overwhelmed by my situation, all my problems, the extent of the work that seemed to be in store for me. Armed with this insight, I was able to put into words with my analyst what was going on. In the 30+ years since then, every time I have a number in a dream I turn to Rudhyar’s book. My psyche will throw up a number when I need guidance, direction or a fuller insight into a problem or issue, and this is not true just for me: I have also seen how helpful numbers can be in my work with students at the Jungian Center.
How is this? Jung felt numbers foster healing from their capacity to “bring order into the chaos of appearances.”[41] Numbers, to Jung, “… not only express order, they also create it. That is why they generally appear in times of psychic disorientation in order to compensate a chaotic state…”.[42]
Back in 1985, when I was feeling discomfort but couldn’t put my feelings into words, the dream of the number 80 created a sort of insightful order that allowed me to articulate for my analyst what was going on within.
Jung saw numbers as being useful for establishing “meaningful coincidences, that is, coincidences that can be interpreted.”[43] This is how I see my experience using Rudhyar’s Astrological Mandala: my psyche recognizes I need a fuller sense of what is going on, or more explicit direction, and it throws up a number in a dream. Being primed to watch for synchronicities, I always take number dreams seriously for this reason.
Besides their healing function, and their ordering ability, numbers can serve as mediators between the real (visible) and imaginary (invisible) worlds, or, to put this in other terms, between the world of matter and the world of mind.[44] In her study of number and time Marie-Louise von Franz came to conclude that number can unify these two realms, linking psyche and world, or psychology and physics.[45]

The Unifying Potential of Numbers I never got beyond calculus in my college studies. As a humanities major, I was not required to take math beyond calculus. So I never got into the more arcane branches of math. But I became aware of this arcana via one of my favorite television shows years ago: “Numbers.” It had, as its star, a math whiz who used various branches of higher mathematics to solve crimes. Besides providing entertainment each week, this show demonstrated the vast applicability and potential inherent in numbers. Not only can numbers solve practical problems and bring order to what may seem like chaos, they give us a way to apprehend “an already existing, but still unknown, regular arrangement or ‘orderedness,’…”.[46] This ordering potential may be what led the great German mathematician Johann Karl Friedrich Gauss to declare that “God arithmetizes.”[47] Creation itself seems to be informed (i.e. given form) by numbers. This being so, because numbers have both quantitative and qualitative properties,[48] they link the world of matter and the world of mind. When Marie-Louise von Franz described numbers as a mechanism unifying psychology and physics, she saw the applicability of numbers to what her friend Wolfgang Pauli described as “atom and archetype.”[49] The world of quantum reality (atom) and the world of psyche (which contains the archetypes) are “mediated” (in Jung’s words) by Number: “the great mediator, Number,… is valid in both worlds, … the real and the imaginary;…”.[50] Numbers provide a way to unify mind and matter, the material and the spiritual realms. In my three decades of experience dealing with my number dreams, I have seen this amazing ability of numbers to bring together the world of matter (my outer life with its problems and predicaments) and the world of the psyche (the source of my number dreams) to foster healing. Just how this happens reflects one of the features of numbers: mystery. “ -

https://jungiancenter.org/jung-on-numbers/

More on these type of ancient numerology

“ Ancient numbers and numerology
Number – a symbol that expresses an idea, an abstraction. Many scientists agree that there is any possible knowledge of the mind in abstract form. The figures also – this is a language of communication. We express our thoughts through language, based on numerical symbolism.

Carl Jung said that the number preceded by mind, and soon discovered a man, not invented. In his view, the numbers are probably the most primitive element of order in mind and subconsciously used as an organizing factor. The Pythagoreans believed that all things are numbers and their constituents are components of all things.
Over the centuries, some of were set higher than others. In different cultures, some number of esteemed sacred, and some – a dangerous, unhappy characters.
Thus, the numbers 3, 4, 5, 7, 10, 12, 40, 70 and 100 were considered sacred by many ancient peoples, and the most mysterious of them was the number 3. Perhaps the reason for this was that most of the great religions of the world based on the holy trinity, such as Brahma, Vishnu and Shiva in Hindu trinity whose mantra is “Aum”, the Christians – Father, Son and Holy Spirit.
In the Hindu Vedas, the numbers 3, 7, 21, 55, 77 and 99 are regarded as sacred. Number 99 is revered by the Arabs, because of their faith in God’s 99 names. The Persians worshiped 3 and 7, the Greeks and Romans believed that magical powers have 3, 9 and 12, the Celts preferred the 3 and 9, and the Slavs – 3, 9 and 7.

Below is a list of the knowledge that the ancient magicians credited with the first ten numbers.

One – a number close to God. The Egyptians in the hymns to Amon Ra or declaring that he – “single” or “only one”. For the Pythagoreans the number “one” is an expression of the Supreme God – an invisible and comprehensive. The Koran also says that “God – there is one God.” In astrology, a unit represented by the Sun.

Two – the perfect number, a symbol of duality, as well as man and woman. For some it is a sign of matter and the source of evil, but the ancients, by contrast, is often viewed it as a protective symbol. The Egyptians, for example, there was a lucky charm in the shape of two fingers. In astrology, this number corresponds to the moon.

Three – the number that symbolizes life, birth and death. This – the sign of the Epiphany (Holy Trinity). Like modern religion to recognize the ancient triad of deities in Babylonia – Anu, Ea and Bel, in Egypt – Isis, Horus and Osiris. In classical mythology, the number three met several times: the three Graces, three Harpies and three Gorgons, the three Furies. There were three kings who brought gifts to Jesus, and the three components of man – body, mind, and soul. In astrology, the number 3 corresponds to Jupiter.

Four – in Egypt, it meant the number of the four quarters of the earth and the four sons of Horus symbolized, as well as the four cardinal directions. In the Bible we find mention of the four Evangelists, the four beasts in Ezekiel, is there 4 anchors, 4 horns, 4 elements. Tetragrammathon – the holy name of God, consisting of 4 letters. In astrological terms, this number corresponds to Uranus.
Five – the ancient magicians saw the number of happy and holy. In the Bible, noted that God’s altar was five cubits long, and the same width. Victim of the world included five rams, goats and lambs. There were five foolish virgins and the same wise. Pentacle of Solomon, or pentagram, is composed of five rays, depicting a man with outstretched hands and legs. We – the five physical senses, the skull consists of five bones, moreover, we have the hands and feet with five toes. In astrological terms the number five corresponds to the Mercury.

Six – is regarded as one of the ideal number, since the world was created in six days. So much light at the Star of David, where each of them symbolizes one of the days of creation. Number of the Beast – 666 – in the past attributed to specific individuals or groups. Is under the control of Venus (under its influence, and gets a dove – a symbol of the United Nations).
Seven – the number of the most mystical of the top ten. Manifestations of it as a magic, and in religion so common that it is impossible to mention all – it’s invisible and it symbolizes the seven heavens, the planets, Pillars of Wisdom, grains spike, days, weeks, sacraments, deadly sins, the hills of Rome, the colors of the spectrum, the archangels , notes and the seven ages of man. In astrology, the number seven corresponds to Neptune.

Eight – a number that represents the two worlds: the material and spiritual. Means sorrow and limitation of anything. The ancients believed that it accompanies death and rock. In addition, it is – a symbol of justice as a blindfolded woman, who holds a sword in one hand, the edge upwards, and in the other – the balance.

The Jews recognized the rite of circumcision on the eighth day after birth. There were 8 sects of the Pharisees. Noah was the eighth descendant of Adam.
Occultists often include three eights to Jesus as the judge
and the comforter of the world. This number is the opposite number of the beast of the Apocalypse (666). It is subject to Saturn.

Nine – another mystical number. Perhaps the most interesting feature is it that when multiplied by any other number and the addition of digits in the result is always a nine. He is considered a symbol of spiritual perfection. It symbolizes life and its struggles and success in the end indispensable. It is significant that the period of pregnancy in women lasts for nine months. Secret meaning of this number represents one of the greatest secrets of the occult. Nine expresses the indestructibility of matter and in this sense is a universal symbol of the underlying cause. In astrological terms is controlled by Mars.

Ten – the number of changes, being and nothingness. The symbolic is the fact that 10 consists of one and zero, one – a symbol of God’s existence, and zero represents the unmanifested matter, nothingness. Hebrews 10 revered as one of the secret numbers of God. Ten Commandments were 10 and 10 spheres of the Kabbalistic Tree of Life. This number is associated with the Earth.
The symbolism of numbers all around us. Faith in their people because it was told from antiquity to the present day. The numbers will not only help reveal the nature of man, but also protect against unwanted troubles (if used in the preparation of amulets). “ - http://numerologystars.com/ancient-numerology/
There’s more here

https://theawakenedstate.net/numerology/

If you have Jungian Archetypes, You are Goated, the only way it doesn’t work is if the Verse ***** it up somehow by getting it wrong or attempts to make its own version (and fails).

They might as well be called Type 0 Ideas/Concepts because Archetypes checks the Type 1’s on all fours and surpasses it, not just a 1-A but High 1-A to Tier 0 infrastructures with the Hierarchies it is above them and being above all categories of numbers helps prove that case as well as being absolutely infinite hence above all sets and infinite Hierarchies.

The psychoids are stated to be the true nature of the archetypes themselves thus allowing them to transcend categories of numbers, time, and space

https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/870358351370928149/872999084825411624/image0.png?width=493&height=538

https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/870358351370928149/872999085450342460/image1.png

 

[Shine]

Well I did say it was long,

I say it again I'm totally neutral on this, and if it's wrong it would be good for the "why" to be in the tiering F&Q to makes thing easier answering to their argument

 

[Everything12]

How about you don't make a post that long kay. Pretty sure that breaks some rules, or at least so e users devices. As for the whole stuff about Archtypes, doesn't matter if they call them Jugian Archetypes or even give a mention about the guy and his theories in the verse, we only judge this stuff based off in-verse feats and cosmology, so they aren't automatically Tier 0 or 1.

As for Sonic being in the same verse as Persona or even NIGHTS, Wiki policy is explicit evidence is required for that. A direct no uncertainty statement from the creators that this is a thing. We don't have that so no SEGA verse, regardless of cameos, those are non-canon unless stated otherwise.

Edit: FYI that stuff about our own Conceot Manipulation page. Yeah that's a old version, we no longer treat then like that anymore.