Warhammer Gods

[EmperorRorepmeThree]

I have a question about the Gods of the Warp in Warhammer. Why do we make a distinction between the "truest" forms of the Chaos Gods and the "avatars" of the Chaos Gods who partake in the Great Game? From what I've seen there is no real distinction made in any books or codices to warrant the tier difference of High 1-B and 1-A.

 

[EmperorRorepmeThree]

Bump.

 

[ZacharyGrossman273]

Ask Matt

 

[EmperorRorepmeThree]

Seems like it was this thread where it was decided. https://vsbattles.com/vsbattles/1590130.

 

[EmperorRorepmeThree]

Anyway Matt has been notified.

 

[Crabwhale]

I believe, as Woki put it, the avatars of the Chaos Gods that play the Great Game are the actual conscious minds given form by their concepts, whereas their true forms are just vague concepts that barely resemble individual beings at all.

For example Khorne in his true form wouldn't be "Khorne", he'd be war itself.

However, I feel this explanation is entirely unsatisfactory, especially given the fact that the Chaos Gods and the like are not even close to being complete profiles or even accurate at this time. In truth they should've been revised a long time ago, but nobody's gotten to it.

 

[EmperorRorepmeThree]

I see.

Yeah I guess you could extrapolate that but it isn't really clear-cut more of an interpretive view.

I thought the reasoning was possible inconsistencies with their Daemons like Skarband and Kairos. Things like the Well of Eternity where Tzeentch is presented weird. Then again I still feel the huge tier difference between High 1-B "anthropomorphic concept" and 1-A "abstract concept" is uncalled for.

 

[ZacharyGrossman273]

To be fair, The Well of Eternity thing would make making the chaos gods straight up 1-A a tad strange

 

[FanSyst]

Similar to what Crab said, the gods are conscious minds from particular concepts manifested through Chaos itself.

"There is no way to know the true face of a Chaos God, for no mortal or machine mind can grasp the unfathomable nature of Chaos. The Four Powers are manifestations of the various aspects of this pure Chaos, and thus they, too, can only be described in limited mortal terms, using words and images that must ultimately fail to perfectly represent the god's actual form."

In this case it could be said that their manifestations are similar to demons but more OP, for example, Skarbrand producing a "crack" in Khorne's armor, this clearly indicates a "physical" manifestation in terms of warp.

Some reasoning regarding chaos indicates similar things, although it usually varies.

"Other commentators have suggested that Tzeentch, the Great Mutator, has no fixed shape at all. Tzeentch's tangible form, when he chooses to manifest physically, is a mass of constantly shifting flesh. Thus, the constantly fluctuating material body of the Changer of Ways resembles many of his creations, such as his daemons and his realm itself, which similarly have no stable form. Still others have posited that Tzeentch's physical forms are simply images that mortal minds create to try to perceive and understand something far more abstract, an agent of pure change, mutation, and flux."

This manifestation is sustained by the craziest use that can be given to the concepts that they embody.

For example, Khorne and the conflict:

"All across the universe, in every galaxy, on every planet, and in every passing moment of time, conflict has steered the course of events. It is conflict that has propelled one species into a position of dominance over another and consigned one man to oblivion while another has triumphed. There are as many sources of conflict as there are beings in the universe. Jealousy, rage, sport, hunger, political advantage, territory, possessions, or even the simple, innate thirst for domination all breed and foster conflict. It is inescapable. There has never been a time or a place free from it. Even those races claiming to be enlightened and peaceful cannot escape the basic truth that without conflict, their progress would come to a halt, with challenging new ideas being left unconsidered...Khorne is conflict embodied to its most violent extreme, and thus Khorne is eternal and omnipresent. In all places and throughout every era, Khorne's influence has been felt by all."

"The fundamental conflicts that drive mortal life forward sustain Khorne on a base level, much as bread and water might sustain a creature of flesh. But just as a mortal body craves more substantial food, so too does Khorne desire greater conflicts. He is not content to lurk in the background, inciting petty squabbles or drinking in the joys of a remote border dispute. Khorne is not some mere beast or other lowly temporal being. He is a god, and the appetite of a god is terrible and insatiable...Above all, Khorne seeks the spilling of blood. Through murder, slaughter, and war, servants of the Blood God rip apart the flesh of their enemies, staining the soil on thousands of worlds with crimson gore, all in the name of Khorne. Nothing pleases Khorne more than the free flow of sanguine life force. It gives him his power, sustains him, and eases the spreading of his influence"

Slaanesh and the pleasure:

"these are just a few of the countless facets that make up Slaanesh, because while its core stems from the experience of pleasure, Slaanesh can also be seen as an amalgamation of all the various impulses and emotions that surround the experience and concept of pleasure. These impulses and emotions can include, for example, joy, satisfaction, aestheticism, romance and love, and the potentially most dangerous feelings of greed, selfishness, lust, lust and perversion. However, they are all linked, and dangerous feelings often develop from the most innocent."

Some stories indicate similar things.

"In the beginning there was the void, and only the void, and the gods moved across the face of the void and they were made wholly of it. Some will tell you that a void is a nullity, a nothingness. They are fools. The void is everything; its infinitude encompasses all possibilities and their ultimate annihilation. It pleased the gods to shape the void as they passed through it, giving it form at their fancy for a time before their makings collapsed back into primordial sea. When the gods met they battled and coupled in equal measure, their shapeless offspring sleeting into the void to lie forgotten in the shadows. So it was for an eternity, with only the void lit by the fire and lightning of the gods at sport."

 

[Ogbunabali]

Don't want to get into this because the forum move is so close. But the Tzeentch quote almost disproves this arbitrary difference between this "Immaterial form" and "abstract concept" thing.

Other commentators have suggested that Tzeentch, the Great Mutator, has no fixed shape at all. Tzeentch's tangible form, when he chooses to manifest physically, is a mass of constantly shifting flesh. Thus, the constantly fluctuating material body of the Changer of Ways resembles many of his creations, such as his daemons and his realm itself, which similarly have no stable form. Still others have posited that Tzeentch's physical forms are simply images that mortal minds create to try to perceive and understand something far more abstract, an agent of pure change, mutation, and flux.

 

[FanSyst]

Don't want to get into this because the forum move is so close. But the Tzeentch quote almost disproves this arbitrary difference between this "Immaterial form" and "abstract concept" thing.

Other commentators have suggested that Tzeentch, the Great Mutator, has no fixed shape at all. Tzeentch's tangible form, when he chooses to manifest physically, is a mass of constantly shifting flesh. Thus, the constantly fluctuating material body of the Changer of Ways resembles many of his creations, such as his daemons and his realm itself, which similarly have no stable form. Still others have posited that Tzeentch's physical forms are simply images that mortal minds create to try to perceive and understand something far more abstract, an agent of pure change, mutation, and flux.

I forgot to mention that they are different reasoning and comments about the form of Tzeentch, I will edit it.

 

[Crabwhale]

Hmm, I guess Ogu makes sense, but yeah, we're too close to the move to do anything proper.

 

[FanSyst]

Chaos Gods 1-B incoming?

 

[EmperorRorepmeThree]

I mean it FanSyst and Ogu, you make sense but there's also the tier difference between the "physical" forms, if it can even be called that and the actual forms. Cause although it's the "physical" state it is still a collective being caused by the true being if that makes sense. Also this makes the Well of Eternity make a whole lot more sense.

I also have an issue with Gork and Mork merely being 1-B.

This stuff can wait until everything settles, though discussion shouldn't be a problem.

 

[EmperorRorepmeThree]

Also Fan, where did you get most of those quotes from?

 

[Ogbunabali]

I mean I disagree with them having the manifestation key, since I haven't seen any actual quote supporting that distinction and it feels arbitrary.

And even if they are legit separate entities why are they High 1-B? That also seems like an arbitrary tier rating given to them.

 

[EmperorRorepmeThree]

Yeah I agree with that. I guess every-time they come up in books like where Tzeentch just randomly shows up in an Ahriman book and directly communicates with a bunch of Daemons but even then he just manifests that so they can comprehend him, a manifestation key isn't needed. He should just have Avatar Creation.

 

[FanSyst]

Also Fan, where did you get most of those quotes from?

Black Crusade

 

[ZacharyGrossman273]

Yeah I agree with that. I guess every-time they come up in books like where Tzeentch just randomly shows up in an Ahriman book and directly communicates with a bunch of Daemons but even then he just manifests that so they can comprehend him, a manifestation key isn't needed. He should just have Avatar Creation.

It's needed for scaling due to Khaine, Kairos, and Skarbrand

 

[ZacharyGrossman273]

Also regarding Gork and mork

" Gork and Mork knew that they were ready. Their people were agitated and prepared for battle The EMperor, their chosen enemy, had deployed his forces. The first skirmishes had been fought, now war was about to be joined.

Beyond them they sensed the Chaos Powers watching, waiting to see what advantaged the God-brothers' actions might bring them. In the darkest pits of creation twisted creatures prepared to follow the Orks' advance. Gork and Mork did not care. They knew they were strong enough to resist Chaos.

THe time was right. The time was now. It was time for Gork and Mork to have some fun."