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Viewtiful Joe Revisions

ArbitraryNumbers

ArbitraryNumbers

VS Battles
Retired
4,652
1,328
To set the record straight here, my knowledge on this verse is extremely limited. However...

Viewtiful Joe's 5-A feat seems to be exclusive to the mech suit he uses in the final battle. He should probably keep the Massively FTL reactions, but I still don't think Viewtiful Joe in base form should scale at all. After all, it's not him who catches Saturns rings and throws them back, it's the mech that does it.

Plus, him fighting King Blue is likely a massive outlier that shouldn't be accounted for, if Joe with a mech has a 5-A feat while base Joe has a 3-A feat.

More on this, the Dark Kaiser mech seems to be almost as big as the sun (in fact it can even sit inside the sun like a hot tub with no harm whatsoever while creating omni-directional solar flares that reach the asteroid belt by splashing), and the guy states himself that with his new powers he could control every movie ever madeand "control humankind's imagination within film itself".

Overall the profiles for Viewtiful Joe thus far seem to lack the ability to distinguish between the characters and their mechs, among other things. They seem sound at first glance, but when you look into the feats the scaling and justifications for their rankings really confuse me.
 
@Arbitrary

Well, I wrote the profile, so I suppose I'm the one to blame for that.

I haven't played either game personally, and I mainly took the statistics off calcs done by Vivi Ornitier.

That said, Joe beat King Blue first before the aforementioned mech feat (which took place in Viewtiful Joe 2). Make of that what you will.

The speed should be just fine though.
 
@Rep

Nah, it's alright.

The speed feat is just fine, yes, but I think it would only scale to Joe's reactions, unless he has any other MFTL feats to support.
 
I don't know. I plan to watch a boss compilation to find some feats, but I have to go to bed soon.

Considering this game was made by the same guys who made Wonderful 101, I'm almost certain that Joe has some good feats. There should definitely be separate keys.

Also, I'm leaning more towards Joe's defeat of King Blue being an outlier, since Joe needed a giant mech to fight a being who was on a similar level of power to him.
 
4-A Dark Kaiser seems appropriate then.

Note that Dark Kaiser seems to be Jet Black's mech. And that Jet Black only gained these powers after using the disk thingy. (AKA the Black Film).
 
So again, it looks like Joe's defeat of King Blue is a feat exclusive to the Six Machine.

Since the Six Machine at this point has defeated two 4-A beings who control Movieland, I think that pretty much solidifies its Tier - MFTL and 4-A.
 
Also, Joe fights tanks, mechs, and dinosaurs on the regular. And even without using the V-Watch, he moves at around the same speed as missiles fired from said bosses. With the V-Watch he slows them down to a crawl.

So perhaps Supersonic to Hypersonic?
 
In the opening of Red Hot Rumble, we see Blue destroy a helicopter with a kick, Alastor destroy several of them, and Jet Black cut one in half.

So far 9-A is looking pretty consistent.
 
@Arbitrary

Joe beats King Blue's giant form with his mech, but even after Blue scales down, Joe continues to fight him in hand-to-hand and win despite Blue's mastery of everything in Movie Land. There's no indication that Captain Blue is weaker than King Blue.

He repeats the feat with Jet Black after the latter had obtained the Black Film AND the seven Rainbow Oscars.

I still disagree about the speed. It would be the equivalent of downgrading Mega Man's speed because he mostly dodges missiles and solar bullets even though he has much higher and still consistent feats. I don't mind leaving his travel speed in the Supersonic-Hypersonic range. But his reactions/combat speed stays.
 
@Rep

The thing is, he supposedly only has the MFTL feat when using the Six Machine.

4-A Viewtiful Joe would also imply that he's on the level of the Six Machine, which obviously isn't true.
 
@Arbitrary

I don't see why not, considering the fact that he fights Jet Black in the latter's stronger form outside of the Six Machine.

In addition, he's still piloting the Six Machine. He has to have at least reacted to these attacks.
 
There's still a clear contrast between him and the six machine, though.

The Six Machine, even without scaling, has shown the ability to bust planets, catch saturn's rings and throw them back, and dodge omni-directional solar flares that can reach the astroid belt almost instantaneously.

Joe on the other hand goes from fighting mechs, jets, tanks, and dinosaurs to suddenly fighting a 4-A, possibly 3-A being. At least with the Six Machine we'd expect him to perform feats that are thousands of septillions of times higher than he normally would.

Even if he is piloting the Six Machine, the Six Machine was used in three different fights IIRC, and only in one of those fights does it display any MFTL feats. It's one MFTL feat compared to pretty much every other showing.
 
@Arbitrary

You're describing the scenario faced by literally every RPG character ever.

Most RPG characters (like Joe, Cloud, and Sora) don't fight at their max capacity throughout the series. Their destructive feats are few (fighting smaller monsters and such), yet scaling proves that they should be ranked much higher.

Yes, the Six Machine has more impressive feats on-screen, but you're neglecting the fact that King Blue had control of EVERYTHING in Movie Land, which again includes countless stars and deep space.

He showed consistency by fighting Jet Black, who easily defeated King Blue and absorbed his power.

If your argument is going to be that we should downgrade Joe on the basis that he jumps into his mech for phase one of the final boss fight, we'd need to downgrade literally every Power Ranger ever. Then there's also the fact that we'd need to downgrade every RPG character ever for only explicitly showing this level of power during major boss fights while being afraid to fall off a cliff at a moment's notice.
 
Except Final Fantasy is filled with 5-A beings, so a 4-B feat doesn't seem as outlierish.

Viewtiful Joe doesn't have any such beings in it, and Joe instead has numerous 9-A feats via destroying aircrafts, mechs, and dinosaurs, so a 4-B feat, let alone a 4-A feat would seem extremely inconsistent with all of that.

And yes, King Blue is 4-A, possibly 3-A. I wasn't denying that at any point.

But I wasn't aware that Black defeated Blue and absorbed his power. So I'll concede that Joe has shown consistency in that field.
 
@Arbitrary

Sora is rated 4-B for being more threatening to Xehanort than Zeus despite having little to no direct destructive feats outside of slicing through skyscrapers.

I don't see why the same logic can't be applied here.
 
Because Sora actually has more than one 4-B feat via fighting Xemnas, who also has multiple 4-B feats.
 
@Arbitrary

Joe also fought and defeated two 4-A characters. Hell, his base, untransformed state was able to take hits from Jet Black after he had absorbed the Rainbow Oscars and the Black Film.

I really don't see your point right now.
 
Well, I seen Double Trouble for the DS and it doesn't look like any event in that game will change the stats of the characters anytime soon other than scaling Joe's mother, Junko, to him. Since Joe will be 4-A with or without the Six Machine and the same applies to Jet, should we start implementing the changes then?
 
@Rep

I've already conceded that Joe has two 4-A feats. I was merely defending my previous statement that Sora and Cloud both have consistency, so they are different cases from a character whom I initially thought only had one 4-A feat.

@DRB

I still think 4-A, possibly 3-A could work here, as I recall the word "universe" being used to describe Movie Land here and there.

And what about the Six Machine and Dark Kaiser? Should they get separate keys?
 
Also, I think Joe can get overall MFTL speed, since Captain Blue could keep up with the Six Machine, which could cross inter-planetary distances in seconds during the battle with Dark Kaiser, and also fought Jet after he defeated Blue, absorbed his power, and amplified it even further with the Oscars and the Black Film.

The hard part is figuring out who gets the "At least" or "Likely far higher" tags without using circular scaling.
 
I don't think it's that complicated.

Jet Black easily defeated King Blue, who created and controlled all of Movie Land with ease, absorbing Blue's power as one of the seven Rainbow Oscars. His power was later bolstered by the absorption of the other six Rainbow Oscars and the Black Film.

Joe scales for defeating Blue and Black and tanking attacks from Black while not transformed.
 
Whoa, I totally forgot about this thread.

Anywho, I think we should get to these revisions. I don't think we should count him taking hits from Black without being transformed, though, as the whole idea of that part of the fight was that Viewtiful Joe was helpless before him. Joe fighting Black while being transformed should work just fine.
 
So, can somebody summarise what conclusions we had reached in the discussion?
 
I believe King Blue would be "At least 4-A, likely 3-A".

Black scales to Blue because he defeated him. After that, he got his power amplified by the Black Film and the Rainbow Oscars, so he'd get a "likely far higher" with such items.

Red defeated a fully-powere up Black, so "At least 4-A, likely 3-A, likely far higher" for him.
 
Okay, and what is the reason for those statistics?
 
@Antvasima

Joe defeated King Blue, who has complete control of everything in Movie World, which at the very least includes countless stars, but also has its own history.

Blue is then defeated by Jet Black at the beginning the second game and later absorbed to bolster Black's power along with the rest of the Rainbow Oscars and the Black Film. Hence he should be superior to Blue, but Black later gets defeated by Joe.
 
Okay. That seems reasonable then.
 
Can you remind me about what we agreed should be changed here?

Also, do you need any profiles unlocked?
 
It was just an agreement to upgrade the two Viewtiful Joe profiles on the wiki to At least 4-A, possibly 3-A, for beating King Blue and Jet Black/Dark Kaiser, who had enough power to create all of Movieland, a realm filled with countless stars and is implied to be its own universe.
 
Okay. That seems fine then.
 
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