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Vegito (Dragon Ball Z) Vs. Kirby (Kirby)

Vegito could do a tech like Vice Shout since Gotenks did it aswell its just screaming loud actually but Vegito is stronger and a bit faster than Buu but he has no healing factor cant do Chocolate Beam or get an Absorption on behind Kirbys back (meaning even if he gets our everytime he will lose stamina over time). I have to go with Kirby high diff.
 
First before anything, exactly how fast is Vegito?

Anyway, like said above, Vegito has no way of escaping or even breathing in Kirby's stomach dimension, so if he get's sucked up, it's all over.

Not to mention there's still the unknown factor of Kirby's super abilities which greatly enhance his destructive and defensive potential.

As of now, I vote Kirby.
 
umm, vegito can be a candy and still retain his power and be unharmed, with no lungs, and buuhan went inside him to mess up his insides and could do nothing, I hardly think breathing is an issue. Also Instant transmission and vice shout can escape being sucked up. Also Buuhan couldn't hurt Vegito even in base form, despite having kirby level of power in stats, so I don't see Kirby doing any damage to him. Also Vegito can casually blitz buuhan in base form who is already mftl, so speed wise they aren't as far apart as you'd think, also worth noting most of Kirby best speed feats are all travel speed, not combat speed, so not applicable to combat. And Vegito can easily put away Buuhan with his power at any time, despite his regen and durability, so I don't see why he couldn't do the same to Kirby if he hits him with anything significant really.

So imo Vegito should do to Kirby what he did to Buuhan, as both of them are very similar in stats and skills.
 
The only thing that proves is that Vegito's insides are strong, and organ hax won't work on him. Also, the point you made about the candy no lungs thing is not gonna work. By that logic, Bulma has no need to breathe for the monster carrot thing, along with EVERY CHARACTER IN FICTION THAT'S BEEN TRANSMUTED (Misty, Brock, anyone Midas ever touched, a boatload of etcetera). Also, sound can't travel in space, even if he could breathe in it, which neither Goku nor Vegeta can do (even in SSJG. RoF anyone?) So no vice shout, which is something he hasn't been proven to do.

Now on to speed thing. MFTL+, especially Kirby's (calced at 1,000,000+c according to Angry Dummy) is leagues better than possibly MFTL (which is between 100 and 1000c, and in his case, far closer to the hundred range due to him being at least FTL+). If you don't think MFTL and MFTL+ are that big of a difference, Wally West wouldn't blitz. Even if it was the difference of 1c, it's still a blitz. It's the SPEED OF LIGHT. To the travel to combat, he has been constantly shown fighting at fast speeds/reacting at it. He fights on the warpstar all the time in the anime, along with his fight with Dark Mind, Kabula, and Nova. He even races on it in Air Ride and the minigames. When there's no known difference betwen the two, you can't assume there's a difference. If anything, his combat speed is higher than his travel speed (look how fast he hits in fighter's vulcan jab or sword's multislash compared to his MFTL+ running). Even if it was travel speed, all Kirby needs to do is inhale. I'm pretty sure that one has been discussed before and shut down by someone else on the Kirby vs Buuhan thing. You also assumed that Kirby is closer to Buuhan and not closer to Vegito. You don't know that for sure. Heck, Kirby TIED with Buuhan back when he was 4-C due to speed and hax that Buu possibly counters but Vegito doesn't have the ability to do.
 
@SSJRyu1 No offense, but you abuse that "combat speed" argument WAAAAY too much and constantly just put every speed feat any non-dbz character seems to have against a dbz character as travel speed. Kirby can react to and move at those speeds using his own abilities (the warp star isn't a vehicle, it's kirby's own energy, meaning it's not like me driving a car). Kirby blitzkills due to massive speed edge.


One more thing, Kirby is ranked at "At least 4A", just like Vegito, and he tanked a fairly high-end Multi-SS attack from Dark Nebula like nothing. If anything, Kirby can put Vegito down with no problems.
 
The real cal howard said:
The only thing that proves is that Vegito's insides are strong, and organ hax won't work on him. Also, the point you made about the candy no lungs thing is not gonna work. By that logic, Bulma has no need to breathe for the monster carrot thing, along with EVERY CHARACTER IN FICTION THAT'S BEEN TRANSMUTED (Misty, Brock, anyone Midas ever touched, a boatload of etcetera). Also, sound can't travel in space, even if he could breathe in it, which neither Goku nor Vegeta can do (even in SSJG. RoF anyone?) So no vice shout, which is something he hasn't been proven to do.

Now on to speed thing. MFTL+, especially Kirby's (calced at 1,000,000+c according to Angry Dummy) is leagues better than possibly MFTL (which is between 100 and 1000c, and in his case, far closer to the hundred range due to him being at least FTL+). If you don't think MFTL and MFTL+ are that big of a difference, Wally West wouldn't blitz. Even if it was the difference of 1c, it's still a blitz. It's the SPEED OF LIGHT. To the travel to combat, he has been constantly shown fighting at fast speeds/reacting at it. He fights on the warpstar all the time in the anime, along with his fight with Dark Mind, Kabula, and Nova. He even races on it in Air Ride and the minigames. When there's no known difference betwen the two, you can't assume there's a difference. If anything, his combat speed is higher than his travel speed (look how fast he hits in fighter's vulcan jab or sword's multislash compared to his MFTL+ running). Even if it was travel speed, all Kirby needs to do is inhale. I'm pretty sure that one has been discussed before and shut down by someone else on the Kirby vs Buuhan thing. You also assumed that Kirby is closer to Buuhan and not closer to Vegito. You don't know that for sure. Heck, Kirby TIED with Buuhan back when he was 4-C due to speed and hax that Buu possibly counters but Vegito doesn't have the ability to do.
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nah the difference is Vegito retained his power as a candy, the other guys don't. A candy ahs no lungs so logically he doesn't need to breathe. Also vice shout does not work due to sound but to ki generated so it will still work, same with instant transmission.

Still all travel speed, simply fighting while on a ship doesn't make you that speed, by that logic I could fight on a plane and be supersonic. So it wouldn't correlate to combat speed with that alone.

Also Vegito in base form is blitzing Buuhan, they have been possibly mftl since Cell, so honestly by Vegito they would be monstrously beyond that, tbh I think it's silly not to have upgraded them to mftl+ in Buu saga since those guys blitz Cell saga guys who are already possibly mftl, and Vegito blitz all the rest of the Buu saga even in base form. So tbh I don't see them as very far apart in speed, especially if you consider Kid buu went around to all the parts of a galaxy, even if we attach the several years thing to that it would still be mftl+ anyway.

But in the end the biggest reason is Kirby can't hurt Vegito, Buuhan couldn't I don't see Kirby hurting him either, and Vegito should one shot just like he could have done to Buuhan at any time.
 
Fair enough, but it doesn't change the fact that Kirby can fight at those speeds (Lor Starcutter Boss Battle proves this), and Vegito can't even react to Kirby.

Also, your "jet plane" example is very fallible, since the warp star is a natural ability of Kirby's (meaning he naturally possesses it, making the Jet Plane example null and void since it can't be compared to a typical vehicle. It's sort of like Kirby's use of ki).


Also, Buuhan is pretty low-end, tbh.
 
Well if he can use it in combat then the speed advantage could go to him, although I'm not sold that he can tot eh same degree.

Buuhan isn't low end dude, it stems from Kid Buu destroying a galaxy in 3 years or less, even over that timeframe he'd have to destroy many millions of solar systems a day, hundreds to thousands of light years of space. And this is Kid buu, Buuhan stomps him in power, yet can't even hurt Vegito base form, so I still don't see Kirby being able to hurt him or take his attacks.
 
Note that Kirby was hit point-blank by an attack that destroyed all celestial bodies around him until only a distant galaxy emerged.


And again, the speed difference isn't small either, it's an insurmountable speed edge for Vegito, he is never going to hit Kirby in a million years.


Also, can't Kirby just bust the planet and be done with it? Vegito can't survive in space.
 
Sorry I took so long to respond. First, I'd like to say that 1, you're a good debater SSJRyu1. Thanks for making this thread an actual debate instead of unanimously Kirby. And also, while I'm pretty sure this isn't what you're thinking, I'm not actively going against Dragon Ball. I know you've only seen me argue against them (excluding Pre Crisis Superman (pre upgrade, though he'd still lose to a full powered Demigra)), but it's mostly because I truly think the other character would win.

Now on to the debate. Psychic powers are VERY limited. I'd say star level TK (since he's stronger than Frieza saga Goku's continent (being generous) by a heck of a lot), with star being unbelievably generous on my part. It could definitely not take someone out at Kirby's level. Kirby has nothing in him to blow up. And Kirby still eats before his synapses fire to even think of doing that. Buu's thing would be a good point if 1, he didn't have instanateous movement, and 2. he wasn't rel+ in travel (subrel+ on OBD, but I digress, and I still like this site more). Heck, they're current speed is generous, as it's never been replicated since, but I digress, and I don't want to start a war. Kirby's travel is his combat, and even if it wasn't, he only needs travel to inhale. Unless it's openly stated that there's a difference on the site, you must assume that they are equal.( ie: There's a difference for Post Supes, but none for Sonic). If you want examples, 1) Meta Knight is as fast as Warpstar (because of air ride and Milky Way), and Kirby evades his attacks while he's flying, and fights him all the time 2) It's not like he's fighting in a plane. He's fighting on a practical hoverboard, constantly dodging things like Nova's walls, or Dark Mind's stars. and 3) His constant fights with Dark Matter. And iirc, he's still MFTL+ w/out the warpstar. Also, where'd you get the three year timespan from? He had millions of years iirc. If it's canon, I'm sorry. I'm at the early Buu Saga right now. (Spopovich is about to fight Videl) (all of my Buu saga info is from this site, DB Wiki, and OBD). The bottom point I'm trying to make is that even IF, and that's a big if, Kirby is weaker (he could still hurt him with his attacks, as they're both at least 4-A, not even counting super abilities which could be at Magolor's level), Kirby only needs to eat him, and Vegito will suffocate as soon as he tries to open his mouth (while it is ki output, I'll give you that, he still needs to open his mouth) The point you made about keeping his powers which means he can breathe doesn't stand. Many of the times, the transmuted don't even have powers. But if that's not good enough, examine Beast Boy. In an episode of Teen Titans, he was turned into a lamp or something like that. Not only was he still sentient, but he could still transform...into other inanimate yet sentient objects. No one in their right mind would argue Beast Boy can breathe in space (don't take that the wrong way. I'm NOT, I repeat NOT, calling you an idiot). And a character made up of characters who's been established to be incapable of breathing in space, one who has died from lack of air, and another who was scared he was going to. But you are right for the MSS level attacks. Anyway, it could even be argued that Kirby can beat him without even sucking him up due to speedblitz that is, as Tyler said, insurmountable.
 
Thanks, glad to know your not against it. Yeah I see that often DBZ characters get either overrated or extremely underrated, so I like to try and show what they can do with proper feats and such.

Well his TK was powerful enough to decimate saibamen easily, and even Cui who was not that far from his level of power 18,000 vs 24,000 for Vegeta was also blown up by it to, so I don't think his TK is really weaker than his regular attacks, after all it is all just ki in the end, just used in different ways. So I still personally think it could kill Kirby in that way.

Speed wise actually if you look at the speed stat explanation here they specifically say that one should separate travel speed and combat speed, although personally I do agree that travel speed and combat speed should at least be similar logically, but they want proof that they are here.

The scene where the galaxy is destroyed is supposed to happen over 3 years, so generally they accept the galaxy being destroyed in that timeframe or less. Even still, a whole galaxy over even a few years is majorly impressive, hundreds of millions of stars a day impressive. And Buuhan stomps Kid buu, and base Vegito stomps Buuhan, and Super Vegito is 50X that. So personally I don't see Kirby hurting Vegito, his feat is more similar to kid buu's feat.

As for the not breathing, nah I don't agree. He can easily use instant transmission or vice shout to escape, he won't die from just letting his breathe go in an instant, in fact humans would die quicker holding there breathe as their lungs would pop from the different pressure. We have seen saiyans can at least fight for a while in space like Goku and Beerus, or Bardock, not indefinitely, but for at least a brief time.

As for candy form, well its a candy, I still don't think it needs air, I suppose you could argue that he no longer needs air as a candy but does otherwise normally, either way he won't instantly die just due to lack of atmosphere.

So at lest in my opinion I still don't see Kirby as able to hurt him just like Buuhan couldn't, even if Kirby were 50X buuhan then SSJ Vegito would still be undamaged since base form was to much for buuhan to scratch, maybe Kirby is faster, depends on how you treat his travel speed, if you allow it for combat or not, and just how much faster you place Vegito from lower possibly mftl guys like Cell.

If we say it's power and durability in vegito's favor and speed in Kirby's favor, it would only result in a stalemate as Kirby can't hurt him and Vegito may not be able to tag him, Kirby may absorb him, but vegito can instantly escape with instant transmission or vice shout, and even then Kirby is naive and would likely be tagged by telekinetic powers that he can't see coming eventually when he isn't expecting it imo.

So personally I think the match is in Vegito's favor if we don't accept travel speed for combat speed, and inconclusive if we give Kirby his travel speed in combat as he would outrun Vegito's attacks and Vegito would be unharmed by his.
 
My first post didn't go through, and it took forever to make it, so I'm gonna shorten it.

-Funny anecdote about assuming vice shout shoud be limited to fusion characters and then remembering Vegito is a fusion

-Kirby is 1000+ times the best possible MFTL. The + makes the difference. Vegito isn't 10cX SPC, who shouldn't be MFTL imo, neither should Teen Gohan, and even if he was, he'd be low end MFTL+.

-Even if Kirby couldn't hurt Vegito, hax will take him down (posession w/ghost, reflection w/basic inhale and mirror and strength close enough so it wouldn't be a NLF)

-Not saying that Vegito or Buu are weaker, just that Kirby is relative to them so much that they'd all be capable of hurting one another. They're all at least 4-A (Vegito and Kirby are high end (iirc, Kirby's upgrade thread was debated to be moved to 3-C or not, and it was for staying at at leas 4-A)), and Kirby has something possibly higher

-Super abilities are very likely to be more than Vegito could handle

-Kirby is fast enough that EVENTUALLY, Vegito would run out of air if he doesn't have time to take a breath, and Vegito can't escape airless dimension (can't say the same about the RoSaT) instantaneously, so he'll lose valuable life time, assuming he's capable of Vice-ing out

-I.T. doesn't dimensional travel. Kais are within the universe/dimension. Whatever it should be called.

-Kirby is known to have travel speed = combat speed on this site. I thought I provided examples even if you didn't believe me.

-Possible that Kirby's speed won't allow Vegito to raise his Ki in time to avoid a fatal strike (speculation along w/imo, as that whole only strong w/ki raised is controversial)

-Vegito couldn't concentrate on Kirby to TK him, Kirby has no internal organs to blow up, and Kirby can expand much farther than any explosion TK has done yet. (larger than Dedede Castle) TK won't work at all.

-Stated that for TK even Frieza had to put something in Krillin. Then I had George Takei say "Ohh Myyy" (TFS Reference)

-(this one wasn't addressed in the first one) In character (you brought up Kirby's naivete), neither of the components truly use their TK, EVER. Goku never uses it, really, and Cui is the last time since. Also, Vegito is cocky A.F. He's not expecting an 8 inch blob to blitz, hurt, and eat him. He might even let Kirby get some strikes off. Heck, the size difference should be addressed too. That's how jawbreaker Vegito humiliated Buu, and why SSJG Goku has a victory over Viral.
 
I agree that the combination of the speed advantage plus the hax gives Kirby a clean win.
 
But again, it is dependant on travel speed vs combat speed argument, Kirby is only that fast due to travel speed feats, so it is debatable if the same speed can even be applied to combat. Also imo Vegito speed is way lowballed as I've said they were already possibly mftl since Cell arc.

The only reason he isn't higher is because we don't have an exact number for him. I suppose on the speed department though if I were to ballpark a low end number from a feat, if Kid buu can multi solar system bust on the level he shows which has been accepted, that means his ki attack can cover vast expanses of space in seconds, minutes at most if we lowball, as solar systems are light years apart, we are talking many light years, possibly hundreds or more, but even covering 100 light years in a minute would be about 55 million times ftl, and that would be mid end multi solar system level to destroy that much space.

So realistically I would estimate that Kid buu's attacks are at least in the millions range of speed since they can cover many light years with their attacks and destroy many solar systems at once. Vegito would be even faster than this btw, as he can blitz Buuhan while in base, who can blitz Kid buu. So personally I don't see Kirby as faster in combat especially.

I didn't think about possession, that might work, but then again it may not as Vegeta is able to ward off babidi controlling him, so I would call that inconclusive as a victory condition.

IT can dimension hop, it can go to and from other world like with Cell and king kai and Goku. The air thing is only an issue with prolonged exposure so I don't see it being a problem unless Kirby can make an inescapable situation for Vegito.

I do agree Kirby has good power, his feat that gave him that is probably almost on par with Kid Buu's own feat that gave him multi solar system busting, but the thing is Vegito roflstomps Kid Buu, not even Buuhan can make a scratch on Vegito, so personally I just don't see Kirby doing damage.

Vegito isn't really cocky, it was an act to make Buu absorb him.

So I mean speed wise I would actually not be to sure Kirby does have an advantage, especially in combat, but even if he does I don't think he can hurt Super Vegito with his power showings, I can't see him being any stronger than Buuhan really.

TK you do have a good point on him expanding, although no reason he couldn't use it if he thought it was a tactical advantage. Also he uses it to destroy parts of buu completely, and the AP of it should be similar to any of his other ki attacks, so I think Kirby stretching is irrelevant as the explosion would more vaporize him than anything imo due to higher power, or at the very least severely break him apart leaving a opening to follow up.

So personally I still think Vegito can take the match.
 
Get what you're trying to say, but I disagree. First off, everyone's everything in DB is INCREDIBLY highballed from Saiyan Saga until BoG. Their current strength is from filler, and their speed is from cinematic timing that hasn't been replicated until Gotenks' world traveling. They go from MHS+ to Sub-Rel because of an upgrade, Sub-Rel to FTL, and so on. Buu has I.M., so he didn't need to fly from place to place. It's purely speculation that he's even that fast to begin with, because again, his travel speed is only Relativistic+. Another thing is that Dragon Ball isn't the only franchise with good combat speed. Kirby is on this site, as fast in travel as in combat. He's not Goku, who has meh travel and wonderful combat, and he's not Superman, who has vice versa So here ANOTHER example. Meta Knight is as fast as the warpstar (see air ride). Warpstar is faster than Kirby himself, who is MFTL+ on his own. Kirby constantly reacts to Meta Knight (do I even need to provide examples for this?). Since Kirby reacts to something FASTER than him, his reaction should be higher if anything. He also reacts on a technical hoverboard. He's not piloting a ship. He's using his energy to move a star shaped...thing. It's very different than flying a plane and being transonic. Because he fights creatures on the thing, and dodges attacks on it too. Buu also has not the best durability in comparison to the people he's fighting imo, so destroying parts of him isn't that big a deal. Final thing is on this site, same tier, similar power. An at least 4-A should be able to hurt another at least 4-A, and you're still disregarding super abilites, final weapons, and hypernova. Other world isn't another dimension. BoG proves that. It's more like an area inaccessible by conventional means. Kind of like Area 51. And I also provided an inescapable solution. Eating Vegito time and time again before he has the chance to breathe. Think of it like this: Someone is holding your head underwater and brings you up, but dunks you back under before you can inhale to get more air. You'll still die from lack of air eventually.
 
Nah dude, gotenks is low end, like snake way was, by that logic they aren't even light speed in buu saga, and Goku can only lift 40 tons.

Buu doesn't have IM till after he sees kai use it when they battle, he didn't have it back then.

I am not saying Buu's speed is due to traveling the galaxy though, although he did go to billions of solar systems so I guess it is a huge feat in and of itself, it is because his ki blasts can destroy many light years of space at once as a multi solar system level attack, that means his ki attack is mftl+ logically if it covers multiple solar sytems in a single shot, and the cast are able to move fast as there ki blasts.

As for Kirby and travel speed vs combat speed, I would agree that makes him likely have similar speed as his warp star logically. Although based on Buu being able to decimate many solar systems in a single attack that would imo be of similar speed, and vegito is vastly superior to this. So I still think speed is not that far apart.

Also a side note, where is kirbies calc for his speed at? I know he is mftl+ due to travel across space, but I can't find a specific number for him.

But looking at the actual feats Kirby feat was maybe equal to kid buu's and buuhan stomps him, and base vegito stomps him so I still don't think he can hurt him, there is a huge variation in the 4A category, one 4A can be massively stronger than another, like Buu and vegito. From what ive seen Kirby is mid 4A like Buu while vegito would be on the high end of it.

The abilities I'm not disregarding, I just don't see them being able to defeat vegito from what ive seen, if he has more hax to do it I'd factor them but vegito should be able to easily escape being eaten, and should be able to resist being possessed. As for absorbing nah, vegito going to another planet will give him more than enough time to breath if need be, and we have seen them battle for minutes in space already like with Goku, so I don't see that strategy working.

So personally I just think Vegito is still to strong, and speed wise I actually don't think Kirby blitz tbh, if buu can destroy many solar systems in one shot the speed of his attacks would already be getting into similar speeds of the warp star which can also cross many solar systems in a short time. Vegito is massively faster than buu.

So I do see your points, but I think Kirby would fair about as well as buu still tbh.
 
Thing is, they weren't lightspeed last year. While the 40 ton is inconsistent as anything, the speed was legit. They are only that fast because Raditz dodged Piccolo's attack. And Gotenks was meant to be impressive. He was showing off. But I digress, and it doesn't matter anyway, it's regardless. controversial, potentially ruins my credibility by even mentioning it, and currently, Kirby is faster. VSBattles puts them at possibly MFTL, because we assume the anime is canon. They are only FTL at all through scaling. No feat in the entire show until BoG puts them there.

Kirby is calced to be above 1 million c w/out warpstar according to a member here.

It would be a huge variation if Kirby was Low 4A (like pre-downgrade Cloud Stife) or regular 4A (imo, all Buu's except the weakest should be normal 4-A). They're both at least 4-A. Neither of them are high 4-A like for example Asura.

Super Abilites should be at the very least 3-C. At max, low 3-A. (one-shot's everything but Magolor, and destroys Magolor's shields). Higher tier final weapons (star rod, shard gun, starship cannon (idk what it's called. The thing in milky way wishes)) should be between 4-A and 3-C (admittedly, probably still 4-A).

Posession and mind control are two different things. Vegeta has only resisted the latter.

Buu's the speed thing would only work if it was actually all at once, which it wasn't. We see them being destroyed one at a time in the anime (few frame difference). For all we know, the blast could've taken a long time to destroy enough to reach galactic levels. And Buu's blasts on earth are clearly not as powerful or fast as the previous ones, as he would've won (small star planet burst calc, normal star at best. Nobody remembers that though). Buu's not one to hold back, so it's safe to assume his attacks weren't moving fast enough to blow up everything before anyone notices. He wants collateral(?) damage. A MSS+ blast at your speeds could've decimated everything and ended it all. Anyway, MFTL at best for these guys.

Buu's feat was pre-Kais? So why the heck to we accept 3 year timespan again? He literally had all the time to do it. He's from time immemorial. If this were post-Kai massacre, I could understand the timespan. I don't get how 3 years could be assumed.

Few things about Vegito and the vice shout. First, how would he know he would use it. I doubt he'd remember/know that 1, "this is what Buu used to escape me," 2. "this move can traverse dimensions," and 3. "can I do the vice shout?" If Vice Shout does work and he goes to a different planet to breathe, probably Namek, assuming he can travel somewhere he had trouble doing with a technique he's familiar with (IT) from a different dimenison (unlikely), then BFR. Kirby wins.

What's to stop Kirby from leaping on Vegito and inhaling all the air out of him before Vegito knows what's going on.

Even if Vegito was MFTL+ from Cell saga scaling (which in itself is scaled from something else that is scaled(frieza saga from Saiyan Saga)), he'd still be ridiculously slower than Kirby, as he'd be very low end.

And it wouldn't be easy to escape. He'd be suffocating. Goku couldn't even focus to leave earth when Buu was gonna blow it up and he could leave unharmed in no pain at the current moment. How would he concentrate banking on a unknown technique while he's dying.

He can't survive in space for long (I'd give him a minute and a half, three at best). Vegeta's space was PIS, and after DB Minus, I'm not sure if Bardock can stay in long either. Space weakness is in Vegito's weakness section for a reason. And if you're saying Beerus fight is in space, I'd say to you, stratosphere. Goku and Vegeta both almost drowned to Frieza and Zarbon respectively.
 
The issue I have is Buu's feat of multi solar system busting is millions of times C easily as I pointed out, so while the wiki hasn't recognised it yet, that is only because they are not willing to process the feat at this time since they are debating if they wanna use kai or not, and the fact I only just brought it up but it is on hold till they decide if they are using just manga or kai to. So I do not think he is faster, regardless of what the current stats may be due to the feat clearly being that fast.

From Kirby feat it is only mid tier level multi solr system, kid buu's was already mid tier, Buuhan stomps that and base Vegito stoms that and SSJ Vegito is 50X that, so I still think that Vegito is easily at the breaking point of 4A, possibly even going into low 3C due to his base form already stomping a high end 4A. So personally I still think Vegito is much stronger and more durable.

Hax wise Vegeta had his mind and body being controlled by babidi, mind control is, well mind lol, possession is body, so he resisted both types there. I think Vegito could do the same against Kirby.

Super abilities may make Kirby able to overpower him, they may not, it's really unquantifiable tbh.

Nah, Buu is coined as multi solar due to being able to destroy multiple solar systems at once, even Cell could solar system bust in one shot, so any reasonable timeframe for the ki blast would result in mftl+ speeds, I even gave a low end of a couple solar systems over a minute witht eh blast and it still gave us that number. If your attacks can decimate many solar systems in one shot, logically that would be mftl+.

He copied supreme kai after seeing him teleport in the present, back then he didn't have IM but it took place during the 3 year time gap.

Vegito if trapped would use vice shout or IT to go to a planet most likely. He is very intelligent so he wouldn't just wait there. He would not be stuck at the planet, if anything it gives him an advantage to be able to charge an attack when Kirby can't even see him or find him and teleport back with a fully charged attack before Kirby even notices him. Goku did a similar thing with Destructo disc on Buutenks.

Kirby could try to leap on Vegito I guess, but he has never tried to fight like that to my knowledge, and also imo Vegito is not slower as I stated above so he would outmaneuver him with his superior hand to hand imo.

Nah dude, im not scaling from the moon beam, I am using a feat, destroying a bunch of solar systems in one shot would be mftl+ in the millions easily as I pointed out, even if the attack took a minute and was only a few of them it is in the millions.

Vegito doesn't die or suffocate in an instant, Goku showed he can battle in space for significant periods of time against Beerus, so after a few minutes Vegito might start feeling it, but not instantly. A few minutes is a long time when your fighting at that speed.

So I do agree Kirby is a good challenge and his hax could possibly beat Vegito, but Vegito is imo still stronger and more durable, and I think he could counter Kirby's hax and would be unharmed by his regular attacks like Buuhan, and speed wise I don't see them far apart really. So I still think it would be Vegito high difficulty.
 
I know you weren't moon beam scaling. I'm just stating that the current speed is.

Beerus was in the stratosphere. That's been confirmed. If people want to deny that, then I have every right to deny that Cell's statement was hyperbole, or at the very least out of context and that they are relativistic in the buu saga. Not only that, but it was in God form/ God essence

Kirby has kept up with meta knight, who possiblly has superior h2h than Vegito (thousands of years of combat experience). Note how I said possibly. So there's probably not a major difference.

Still don't see how a destructive being from the beginning of time gets the 3 year timespan.

If the blast thing were true, then a whole lot more charcters would be MFTL+. Heck, Kirby would be even faster as Dark Nebula's feat took 5 seconds tops. Plus, if Kirby is truly superior to the Lor Starcutter, Buu's upgrade wouldn't even matter because Kirby would be in the mid-upper quadrillion c range.

You may or may not be right about the speed upgrade. But for now, we have to argue with the current stats. For example, a downplayer wouldn't be able to argue with a 4-C Vegito or a 5-B Kirby.

The Kirby doesn't fight like that could be thrown right back because again, Vegito, Goku, nor Vegeta know how to use the vice shout. I'm just giving you the benefit of the doubt for the sake of the thread for that.

Going to another planet regardless would be considered BFR, no matter how strategic. He left the battlefield. It wouldn't work for the Tenkaichi Budokai.

Regardless, he couldn't get the drop on Kirby if he did do a strategic move like that, and it wouldn't be accurate on something that small.

That's not how Babidi works, or how mind control and posession are. Posession puts the victims consciousness on the backburner, so the assaulter has complete control. Mind control is influence from the outside (like Babidi). Baby would be more like posession. Mind control, people still know who they are (spopovich still knew he was spopovich and vegeta still knew he was vegeta. Posession would be the other persion in complete control. (Baby was Vegeta in GT)

Again, multipliers aren't workable after Frieza saga. If they were, then Super Perfect Cell got dominated by SSJ Gohan (Gohan was at half power during beam struggle) and SSJ's are Solar System level.

For Cell, you saw how slow that beam he was using against Gohan in Pefect form was, right? The one that backfired and destroyed parts of him? And according to this site, that should've been going MFTL, and to you, MFTL+, but it was slow enough for a lot of things to happen

And they're using Kai. If they weren't, this debate wouldn't be happening because it would be an unholy stomp for Kirby's favor. Vegito would be 4-C at Relativistic+ speeds.
 
Nah, he wasn't in the stratosphere the whole time, not in super. The scan clearly shows thenya re well above the planet.

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11122/111223914/4886282-6836538833-CCUXg.jpg

The 3 year thing is since that scene is the whole few short years scene, so those events are supposed to happen in that few short years. In the anime they add in the galaxy being destroyed to it.

Nah, Kirby may be millions, but Lor star cutter feat I don't see how it makes him that fast, all I saw is him going through a star shaped portal to get to another dimension, nothing indicated to me he actually crossed any universe via speed, also we don't know how close he was to the other universe to begin with, although maybe i'm missing some info.

Well if we go by the current stats on the site Kirby ahs a speed advantage, but as far as the debate goes with the actual feats alone imo he doesn't have it.

Possession might work in that case, but I still think Vegito would beat him before that, also that is only due to absorbing other critters no? I don't think it is a standard skill he'd normally have.

Well they can go to other areas, as long as they return in a reasonable timeframe. Only if they are stuck there is it bfr.

Gohan was never said to be half power. Just using less limbs doesn't do that, like how friez used a finger for busting planet vegeta, but we don't make him at full 10 times that.

Well the speed of beams is slowed for the viewer, even roshi and krillin were to fast for normal people to see fight. If you took what you see literally then they would be sub sonic most of the time.

Well right now yes for sure, but I brought up a thread on the speed feat and was told they are debating if they will continue using kai or just the manga, that's why they didn't want to review the mftl+ feat yet.

So I still think Vegito wins, I don't see Kirby hurting him, possession might work, but that is outside help, speed wise yes if we take the current ratings on the site Kirby is faster, but using actualy feats Vegiuto is logically in the same area of speed due to kid Buu being able to obliterate many light years of space in a single attack as a multi SS busting power.
 
As cool as that picture was, it contradicts many of the things Toriyama stated, and 2, could've just been for show. (Just like cinematic timing)

On DB Wiki, I remember it stating that Gohan was half power. It wasn't on him using less limbs. It was due to him using a good portion of his power to torture Cell and then taking the hit for lil Veggie.

I only stated the beam was slow because some of the people freaking out were Krillin and Tien (maybe even Hercule, but I don't remeber) If it were just the saiyans, I would've never made that point.

Several flaws in your outside help argument. First, we NEVER assume Kirby's abilities are outside help. Kirby wouldn't even have any abilites at all, in that case. Secondly, even if we did, he still has copy essences and the copy palette, and ghost fits into the latter. Thirdly, Vegito's entire EXISTENCE is outide help.

Just remembered that Kirby has Scan. Assuming it doesn't give Kirby Fighter, it could be used to give Kirby some of Vegito's abilities.

Your point about bfr makes sense. Still, we're not positive if the vice shout is viable or not.

If your speed gets accepted, then a whole lot of other changes would be made to other stellar and galactic characters who destroy via beams, shockwaves, magic energy, etc. Kirby would even be faster given Dark Nebula's feat was nigh-instantaneous. For the record, I'm using nigh-instantaneous as a hyperbole. Obviously it wasn't moving at Wally West speeds.

Also, if it did, there would be such a huge difference between this site and the other ones with DB pages (except for DB Vs wiki. I don't even like to talk about that.) It would also mean that from the manga to the anime, they got a countless boost in speed, and also a countless boost between sagas. It would be so inconsistent it's not even funny.

Lor's feat is calced to be that high. We can't assume it's lower because you didn't see something. No offense.

Also, at the very least, it's outside of the Gamble Galaxy. And it did that in a second. So even blows Whis out of the water with speed. Also, the battle with the Lor Starcutter shows MFTL+ speeds...going backwards.

If Buu's blasts were that fast, then Tien and Chiaotzu would've had no chance dodging SUPER Buu's blasts. Especially Chiaotzu. And iirc, weren't there multiple blasts they would've had to dodge?
 
SSJRyu1 we have already gone through this many times, Goku did not fight Beerus in space. Saiyans can not survive in space. Please don't use it in arguments
 
Faisal Shourov said:
SSJRyu1 we have already went above this many times, Goku did not fight Beerus in space. Saiyans can not survive in space. Please don't use it in arguments
Click to expand...
Well I disagree with the conclusion on that but as you don't want to use it on the wiki I won't use it further.
 
The real cal howard said:
@Faisal Shourov,
What's your opinion on this battle?
Click to expand...
I would give it to Kirby, given his superior speed. There is no distinction made for combat and travel speed on Kirby's profile, so it's useless mentioning the distinction in this fight. How well does Kirby use his intangibility?
 
Ehh, I don't recall them actually stating he was at half power in the manga or anime, if you got canon proof of it though I'd of course reconsider.

BUt still, the beam speed is unknown, those guys even move way to fast for humans to see aside from hercule, and I doubt anybody would claim there beams are as fast as hercule, its more a inconsistency like talking while moving faster than sound.

Well I'm not aware of the rules about Kirby and what absorbtion skills he gets, Also vegito isn't outside help, he is one being, if we said Goku vs Kirby and fused Goku with Vegeta to VEgito that would be outside help but we are specifying starting with Vegito, it's like saying super buu is outside help because he absorbed fat buu, Kirby however does not often have access to all his abilities at once in games to my knowledge.

BFR wise I think Vegito has multiple ways out with vice shout or IT (other world and kai realm are another dimension, whis and Beerus can just cross dimensions with travel, in fact we see them able to fly between universes which are completely separate) so he can certainly escape that, actually he could even potentially BFR Kirby to another dimension come to think about it with either of those skills going by Kirby profile not saying he can dimension hop, lol Kirby inside his own stomach dimension. Don't think Kirby has dimension hoped without outside help, but I'm no Kirby expert so I may not have seen him do it is all.

Yeah, I think only makes sense for multi solar system range attacks of that nature to be mftl+ due to the vast distances they cross, also it would make a little more sense with Vegeta's rage form being able to even touch Beerus, since right now the gap is so vast that makes no sense for him to be able to touch beerus, even at 10% for Beerus, but it will likely take a while before they even decide if they want to implement the change since like I said I was told they are debating on if they wanna keep using kai or switch to manga only.

Well the thing is we don't really know the speed in the manga very well, the best feats are often scaled from saiyan and frieza saga, even aniime wise people have been using feats from there and scaling with low balls using kaioken multipliers, although they vastly exceed those as the series progresses, so it really would not be inconsistent if they did develop to mftl+ by Buu saga, considering they were sub sonic beginning of dragon ball, and ftl+ by scaling at frieza saga, mftl in Cell saga, and mftl+ in Buu saga makes sense, I mean there power has been shown to grow at that kind of steady rate, if anything it would make less of a huge ridiculous jump from current super and Buu saga, as we are practically using frieza saga values in speed for buu saga guys right now. But I digress, that's my speal on speed for the day XD

Can you show me the feat and how it is calced to be that high? I could not find the calculation and proof. I saw it go through a portal, not fly across a universe. I may be missing info as I could not find the original calc but I did not see it actually cross a universe myself, just warp from one through a star portal thing. I actually brought up if anybody can explain why it is at that value and give the calcs and screenshots and have yet to get a response after days.

Again that is a inconsistency, that's like saying tien and chiautzu are faster than buu's attacks, they would be blitz under normal circumstances. Also the feat are different, that is over a planet, a multi solar system size attack is logically going to be mftl+ under any reasonable timeframe, most ki attacks are done in seconds, but even saying it takes minutes for on of his multi SS busting attacks it still lands him in the millions of times C category easily.

So I mean I will say this, given the current speed stats on the wiki Kirby is obviously faster, but I think the wiki is wrong at this point on that case, and it seems I will have to wait till they are through deciding what they think is "canon" before that can be resolved so for me that is inconclusive.

As for hax, If we assume Kirby has all his absorptions then possession I could see possibly working, although with the fact Buuhan tried to destroy Vegito's body from the inside and could not and was forced out, and Vegeta showed resistance to babidi magic and mind control to I have doubt's that will work still.

Although I still say even with current stats Kirby can't do any more damage than Buuhan could, and that Vegito is likely stronger and more durable.

tbh I think it's best to wait to decide until that speed feat is hammered out though as speed is to important a factor.
 
Speed's always an important factor. It even says that on one of the stat pages.

Wayy too many inconsistencies for a speed buff. This is one of many (Snake Way, Gotenks, Krillin catching Frieza off-guard, any non saiyans, androids, or nameks seeing any fights past Vegeta)

The difference of FTL to FTL+ to MFTL to MFTL+ is astronomical. Their (DB) scaling is definitely not linear. I see many people making jokes about DBZ because of it's non linear power ups. Don't get me started about Super.

Buu can't posess. Neither can Babidi. And I still didn't factor in the erase factor I found on Kirby's wiki.

Kirby has other ways of victory in scan and mirror.

If this site is wrong for slow, a crapton of other battle sites consider them statues. Coincidence? I think not. This site is generous with DB speed ratings as it is.

I don't think they are faster. I think that they at least have a chance to dodge it because the blast wasn't MFTL+

See Magolor vs Beerus on people talking about the Lor's speed.

A beam from a stronger form going over a planet should take an absudly less amount of time than a weaker one going over multiple solar systems.

Taking a break from my rant (for lack of a better word) @ Faisal: Here

Vegito BFRing is no offense, a weak argument. He never showed the ability for use...again. And that technique was never used for that purpose.

The games Kirby had access to his abilities without absorbing creatures: Kirby Super Star; Kirby and the Amazing Mirror; Kirby Super Star Ultra; Kirby Squeak Squad; Kirby's Return to Dreamland; Kirby Triple Deluxe; Kirby Right Back Atcha (not a game, but you get the idea/also, kirby had to absorb something, just not always sentient beings)
 
Hmm, well my stance is still the same for the reasons outlined above, but the one thing I still would like to see and haven't seen proof of is the lor starcutter feat, people are referencing it but I have not seen the proof of it like the actual calcs and scans, it looked like a portal to me so I'd like to see the actual scans and calc.
 
Now that I think of it, it may have been from the first trip, when you still think Magolor is a good guy. But I'm glad we're no longer posting giant responses anymore.
 
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