Vegeta vs. Frieza (Concluded)

[Skalt711]

This match can only be removed if it's outdated or it is a stomp match. If you don't satisfy with the current results, kindly make a rematch. I think that the arguments in this thread are valid.

It doesn't fit both criterias (outdated match; stomp match), so this match can't be a candidate for the removal.

 

[AKM sama]

It can also be removed if the reasonings are insufficient.

 

[Skalt711]

^ I edited my post above

 

[PaChi2]

Yea but first I'll have to get it removed from the profiles.

Frieza can always blow up the planet. Something that instantly nets him the win since unlike Goku vegeta cant escape.

 

[AKM sama]

There's a third criteria called invalid arguments. Quite literally all the comments are "FRA" referring to Mayo's comment who also said later that this match can be called inconclusive.

There is no single objective reason for Freeza winning here. They are both equal in terms of power and Vegeta holds a massive skill advantage over Freeza.

 

[AKM sama]

Frieza can always blow up the planet. Something that instantly nets him the win since unlike Goku vegeta cant escape.

Now this^ is called an objective reason.

But this is a Vegeta who has already dealt with the same fate before and he's not going to repeat his mistakes again. Even Freeza won't go for the planet without a fight, and when they fight, Vegeta will be sure to keep that in check.

If Vegeta vs Frost (U6 saga) and Goku vs Freeza (Pre-ToP) is anything to go by, they'll just KO each other instantly by using their full power from the start out of hatred for each other.

 

[PaChi2]

"Repeat his mistakes"?

Frieza does not need Vegeta's permission to blow up Earth. He just needs to point his finger at the floor and boom. And as you have already stated they are equal in strength so Frieza is not going down at the start of the fight, meaning he has room to destroy Earth.

 

[Skalt711]

Mayo only sees this match as an inconclusive, but he still votes for Frieza to win this match, even if with high difficulty.

 

[AKM sama]

I edited my comment before yours.

 

[AKM sama]

Mayo only sees this match as an inconclusive, but he still votes for Frieza to win this match, even if with high difficulty.

And that vote doesn't have any valid reason behind it when he sees this match as inconclusive.

 

[PaChi2]

Even if they KO each other, KOs in DB apparently last for seconds to minutes. The fight doesnt end there.

 

[Ponkpunk]

Vegeta has far more than planet durability, and won't die in space in his god form. Going for Vegeta because frieza trained in hell to fight goku, yet tied with him, so why tf would he beat vegeta, who he HADN'T been training to fight against.

 

[PaChi2]

"Wont die in space in his God form".

Hell, yes.

 

[Ponkpunk]

"Wont die in space in his God form".

Hell, yes.

Goku fought beerus in space...

 

[AKM sama]

Even if they KO each other, KOs in DB apparently last for seconds to minutes. The fight doesnt end there.

If you're going that route, it still is inconclusive as it depends on who gets up first. If ToP is anything to go by, Vegeta has shown more resilience and tenacity. However, Freeza also can't be ruled out.

 

[PaChi2]

That wasnt the case since:

1) RoF is a thing.

2) Upper layer of the atmosphere.

3) Recent manga chapter

 

[Skalt711]

@AKM sama

But Mayo's argument is constructive. If he sees this match as inconclusive, it doesn't cancel his own arguments and, importantly enough, his own vote. So it is valid as long as he wishes to change the vote.

 

[PaChi2]

If you're going that route, it still is inconclusive as it depends on who gets up first. If ToP is anything to go by, Vegeta has shown more resilience and tenacity. However, Freeza also can't be ruled out.

You already gave your explanation as to why you think they'd KO each other at the statt. That's fine. The rest dont think that will be the case so the thread ended with Frieza's win. You can stop derailing, close this thread, and create a new one if you want? Thank you.

Im unfollowing. Good day.

 

[Ponkpunk]

That wasnt the case since:

1) RoF is a thing.

2) Upper layer of the atmosphere.

3) Recent manga chapter

1. They were afraid of frieza blowing up the planet because he killed everyone, not because they were going to die.

2. You can't breather there, and it basically has all the qualities of being in space.

3. I haven't read that but I'm pretty sure this is anime vegeta we're talking about.

Anime and manga have different canons

 

[AKM sama]

@AKM sama
But Mayo's argument is constructive.

His argument doesn't state any conclusive reason for Freeza's victory when even the episode didn't reach the same conclusion despite all that.

Plus, his argument is objectively wrong because Freeza doesn't have a vast endurance advantage over Vegeta in this case. They are both equals and can be knocked out in one punch. In fact Vegeta should have the slight advantage as he has had much more experience and constantly trains with Whis.

 

[AKM sama]

You already gave your explanation as to why you think they'd KO each other at the statt. That's fine. The rest dont think that will be the case so the thread ended with Frieza's win. You can stop derailing, close this thread, and create a new one if you want? Thank you.

Because it wasn't even brought up before I commented. The thread ended due to very shaky reasons which seem to be based on an argument from belief. And it's not derailing when you're discussing the main topic.

 

[Skalt711]

@AKM sama

Well, his argument does explain Vegeta's disadvantages and Frieza's advantages. And after all the explanations, Mayo still bets his vote on Frieza. That counts as a conclusive victory. And about the unstatement of said victory, Mayo just puts his thoughts on public about how the match may go inconclusive otherwise.

About the episode: Does they even have the same mood, goals and spirit as Goku and Frieza from the said episode?

 

[Ponkpunk]

uh... bump??

 

[AKM sama]

@AKM sama
Well, his argument does explain Vegeta's disadvantages and Frieza's advantages. And after all the explanations, Mayo still bets his vote on Frieza. That counts as a conclusive victory. And about the unstatement of said victory, Mayo just puts his thoughts on public about how the match may go inconclusive otherwise.

About the episode: Does they even have the same mood, goals and spirit as Goku and Frieza from the said episode?

The main reason for his vote is Freeza's massive endurance advantage over Vegeta and only Final Explosion being able to kill him, which is straight up false. They both are equal in terms of power and can be knocked out in a single blow as you can see in the video I linked.

His comment also ignores the massive skill advantage Vegeta has after all the experience and training with Whis. Freeza did not show any skill against Goku because it was a straight up clash and his fights with Saiyans are always brawls.

About the video: Goku and Freeza have the feeling of hatred and competition in that episode, despite it just being a minor contest to see who's stronger. Everything is going to be dialed up to 11 in this case because both Vegeta and Freeza are going for the kill and hate each other's guts, especially Vegeta. When Vegeta goes for the kill, he ends it in a single blow (like he did to Pui-Pui, Ginyu Tagoma, Frost etc), but Freeza loves to play with his opponents. But I doubt Freeza will do that in this case because he knows Vegeta is dangerous.

 

[Skalt711]

@AKM sama

I can see valid arguments here. But I think that Mayo's arguments remain to be valid.

I'd still appreciate if you or somebody else start a new versus match-up thread if you want your thoughts to be pushed.

 

[Ponkpunk]

I'm pretty sure the scaling looks something like this

Ssb goku 20x kaioken > vegeta blue >/= goku blue = frieza

But even if vegeta is only tied to goku he still wins because frieza was specifically training to fight goku not vegeta.

 

[CryoTheMayo]

What skill advantage are you even talking about? Are you denying that Frieza matched Goku's movements completely when they had their mock "first to land a hit wins" match? What about Frieza fighting Goku on Namek, even with his power suppressed and with no Ki sensing? Hell, Frieza in the ToP was constantly reading the strategies and movements of other fighters and dealing with them (Dyspo and Jimeze). He even fought Jiren toe-to-toe at the end of the ToP when they were both heavily weakened.

Vegeta himself has only ever had training under Whis and that training clearly isn't a massive advantage when Frieza has displayed the ability to keep up in terms of skill.

Your entire argument is just "Well obviously Vegeta is going to expend all of his power to try and kill Frieza" which is nonsensical. This is a death match. They aren't going to just KO eachother in one blow when they know they will die if they screw up. Just look at other fights between equivalent fighters like Goku vs Vegeta (Buu saga) or even Goku vs Frieza, where Frieza was constantly growing weaker but could still keep up with Goku for a brief period of time when he went max power.

Hell, Frieza having a massive endurance advantage is undeniable. If Frieza slices Vegeta in half, Vegeta is going to die quickly. If Frieza gets sliced in half? It will take him literal days. There are also other arguments. For example, Vegeta can't maintain his Blue form when knocked out. Frieza can, however, maintain his Golden form when knocked out. This means a knocked out Frieza will still be using his transformed power, rather than his base power like Goku and Vegeta and will result in him, by default, being much harder to kill.

You are essentially comparing a mock match, where the characters have to go at max speed by default to win, to a death match, with no rules, where the key to victory is usually a mixture of energy conservation and exploiting weaknesses. If either of them go full power and try to kill each other in one blow, it can easily result in them dying soon after due to exhausting their strength on a single blow.

 

[Crabwhale]

I'd just like to point out that this match takes place in the ToP Arena, since apparently everyone forgot to read the OP. Frieza can't just yeet that. Bullshit breaking for dramatic effect aside, it was made to withstand battle from the GoDs, so Frieza can't go "bye, lol" even if he wanted to. And even then, the void around said arena is perfectly breathable.

Otherwise, I too am vying more for inconclusive.

 

[Skalt711]

I can definitely see these Cryo's and Crabwhale's argument as valid and constructive ones.

@everyone

Will you be fine if we start a rematch to redefine the results?

 

[CryoTheMayo]

Yeah, I didn't forget. I recall clearly taking it into account when I was arguing. I already said that this could be inconclusive but I gave it to Frieza due to his superior natural capabilities enabling him to survive and fight for much longer than Vegeta.

Vegeta is going to have to vaporise Frieza to win, or at least tear him into a state that he can't fight anymore. Either option would be extremely hard to execute against someone around your power and skill though. All Frieza needs is a single Death Saucer or Death Beam and the odds will be in his favor.

 

[Crabwhale]

You'e forgetting something however: Frieza is extremely, extremely arrogant. To the point where every time he has been defeated, it has been because of that sole reason. Meanwhile, Vegeta is not, as we clearly saw with Frost. When he wants to end a fight quickly, he will end it quickly, unlike Frieza, who in that regard has never improved.

 

[CryoTheMayo]

No. He doesn't lose due to arrogance.

Namek

Literally stomped everyone. Only lost because Goku asspulled Super Saiyan.

Earth

Again, asspull. Trunks came from the future with vastly superior AP and won. He was right to believe he and his father could take Goku out together. To memory, he was even stated to have grown stronger due to cybernetic enhancements.

Earth (RoF)

He literally couldn't have predicted that Goku had grown infinitely stronger or had God Ki. Nor could he have predicted more than one Super Saiyan could exist. Even so, he made a backup plan in Sorbet, in the event that Goku somehow won against Frieza's infinitely superior strength and when Vegeta went Blue, Frieza just nuked the planet and won anyways. He literally only lost due to Whis rewinding time.

ToP

Only case of arrogance costing him a win is Toppo's destruction energy. He only screwed up at defeating Jiren due to his sadism.

Post-ToP

Evidently, no arrogance to be found here. At absolute worst he was merely ignorant of the Fusion Dance.

Frieza's losses all stem from his sadism enabling people to make a comeback or due to his opponents asspulling constantly. His only actual loss that stems from arrogance is against Toppo.

So what you SHOULD be arguing is that Frieza's sadism would result in him drawing the fight out. But I'd heavily argue even that. Frieza doesn't care about Vegeta. The only time he displayed actual interest in Vegeta was after he learned about Gogeta's existence. He otherwise dismissed Vegeta as a threat or something to consider being angry over.

And even if Frieza did let his sadism control him against Vegeta, what would it change? Frieza is going to just torture Vegeta to the brink of death, causing terrible wounds that Vegeta can't magically heal. Vegeta would have to asspull a ridiculous rage boost or SSBE to turn the tables in a scenario where Frieza gets the edge and manages to perform a drawn out torture.

 

[Skalt711]

https://vsbattles.com/vsbattles/3191209

Go discuss here

 

[CryoTheMayo]

I also contest your absurd argument that Vegeta would end the fight quickly.

To start with, Frost was a weakling cheater that Vegeta went Blue to KO (Which, mind you, heavily screwed his chances against Hit). Secondly, Vegeta stalled against Frieza instead of just killing him instantly and, lastly, Vegeta has constantly drawn out fights and undergone arrogant tirades about his pride and power.

Also, Frieza not improving with his arrogance? That's a complete and utter incorrect statement. RoF and the ToP were all about Frieza improving. Hell, Frieza was improving when he invaded Earth and chose to bring his equally as strong father to back him up against Goku, the only actual threat that they would face on the entire planet.

 

[AKM sama]

"Your entire argument is just "Well obviously Vegeta is going to expend all of his power to try and kill Frieza" which is nonsensical."

Suuuuuuuure, because a character using his full power from the start in a life or death situation is what's nonsensical.

"If Frieza slices Vegeta in half, Vegeta is going to die quickly."

Keyword: if

And if Freeza get's sliced in multiple pieces, he won't be able to do a thing either. The match would end.

"Vegeta can't maintain his Blue form when knocked out. Frieza can, however, maintain his Golden form when knocked out."

And? Doesn't help when you're knocked out. Don't know what this accomplishes. And he lost his Gold when Toppo KOed him.

"You are essentially comparing a mock match, where the characters have to go at max speed by default to win, to a death match"

Yeeeees because people don't use their max in a death match.

When two characters who are equal to each other and willing to kill they do use their max strength from the start and it will result in a stalemate because they are equal. Also Freeza isn't outlasting Vegeta because he loses his strength too when fighting at full power, they all do.