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Vegeta Downgrade (Great Ape only)
- Thread starter The_real_cal_howard
- Start date
- Status
- 387
- 16
RoF arc of DBSPaChi2 said:
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Could I get a link to this MTFL Buu Saga calc if anyone has it?
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I think that "At least Planet level" would be ok for saiyan arc great ape vegeta then
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This is coming from a huge DBZ nerd, power levels, especially those mentioned in Daizenshuu, V-Jump and others are bullshit. Now, Power Levels aren't bullshit, but these are. These are not the only mistakes.
Satan, the one guy who died by a bullet in the Buu Saga, above episode 1 Goku, who tanked a car crash without a scratch and took bullets like nothing? Unbelievable.
I am a Yamcha defender, this may be personal, but he was shown to be above Krillin at least in the DB saga a few times: He was able to match Tambourine, while Krillin was oneshotted; Yamcha began stronger than Krillin, since he actually beat Goku while Krillin was his inferior ( You can say Goku was hungry, but that didn't stop him in some other fights ). And by the Saiyan Saga, Yamcha was even with Tien, a superior to Krillin, once again, and yet Krillin was stated to be above him.
And Jeice, stated to be Ginyu's right hand man and the third strongest after Ginyu and Freeza being weaker than Recoome. There is so much wrong in this I don't even know where to start.. Jeice and Burter together managed to give at least some trouble to Goku. He wasn't fighting at his all, but he was giving effort. Recoome was oneshotted.
Many things are dumb on these, so "official" power levels become way less believable than "unofficial" power levels. There are many great power level lists in Kanzenshuu, for instance, that are way different than the "official" ones.
Anyways, the Oozaru is a x10 multiplier. Vegeta was a 10.000 but "overloaded" into 18.000. I don't believe this was his "true" power, but him going above his limits. Similar to how Freeza was at his 100% and yet seemed to exceed his powers sometimes or when Gohan rages. There are many great examples of this.
This would make Oozaru Vegeta a 100.000, weaker than Ginyu. That's the best explanation I can give you, but if we are to take the "official" power levels, then Vegeta is above Ginyu and there is absolutely no questions asked.
EDIT: Oh, and Vegeta was only afraid at the Namek Saga. That could be explained due to his loss of the tail. So he could defeat Ginyu using the Oozaru state, but since he can't anymore, he is afraid of being defeated, something that wouldn't happen had he never lost the tail.
Satan, the one guy who died by a bullet in the Buu Saga, above episode 1 Goku, who tanked a car crash without a scratch and took bullets like nothing? Unbelievable.
I am a Yamcha defender, this may be personal, but he was shown to be above Krillin at least in the DB saga a few times: He was able to match Tambourine, while Krillin was oneshotted; Yamcha began stronger than Krillin, since he actually beat Goku while Krillin was his inferior ( You can say Goku was hungry, but that didn't stop him in some other fights ). And by the Saiyan Saga, Yamcha was even with Tien, a superior to Krillin, once again, and yet Krillin was stated to be above him.
And Jeice, stated to be Ginyu's right hand man and the third strongest after Ginyu and Freeza being weaker than Recoome. There is so much wrong in this I don't even know where to start.. Jeice and Burter together managed to give at least some trouble to Goku. He wasn't fighting at his all, but he was giving effort. Recoome was oneshotted.
Many things are dumb on these, so "official" power levels become way less believable than "unofficial" power levels. There are many great power level lists in Kanzenshuu, for instance, that are way different than the "official" ones.
Anyways, the Oozaru is a x10 multiplier. Vegeta was a 10.000 but "overloaded" into 18.000. I don't believe this was his "true" power, but him going above his limits. Similar to how Freeza was at his 100% and yet seemed to exceed his powers sometimes or when Gohan rages. There are many great examples of this.
This would make Oozaru Vegeta a 100.000, weaker than Ginyu. That's the best explanation I can give you, but if we are to take the "official" power levels, then Vegeta is above Ginyu and there is absolutely no questions asked.
EDIT: Oh, and Vegeta was only afraid at the Namek Saga. That could be explained due to his loss of the tail. So he could defeat Ginyu using the Oozaru state, but since he can't anymore, he is afraid of being defeated, something that wouldn't happen had he never lost the tail.
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- Thread starter
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I'm fine with that compromise.
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I don't think Vegeta was ever scared of the Ginyu Force in a general sense. Rather, he was scared of that specific situation of being on Namek with no allies, and Frieza calling in the Ginyu Force. In short, yeah, it's because he didn't have a tail anymore. Plus, Vegeta at this point was way more powerful than he was in the Saiyan Saga, and had he still had a tail, he would have been far above the Ginyu Force as a Great Ape. So it's safe to assume that a lack of tail plays a huge roll in why he was scared. And even then, when they all finally had a confrontation, Vegeta didn't seem that scared anymore. He still fought them and didn't run away, even though he tried to run away from Frieza, who he really was terrified of.
Plus, Vegeta was aware of their special abilities. He knew Guldo could stop time, that Burtur was incredibly fast (probably the second fastest on the team, and faster than Vegeta), and he may or may not have been aware of Ginyu's body switching technique. Not to mention, Burtur and Jeice are very tactile.
So all in all, there's more to be afraid of in the Ginyu Force besides sheer power. Also, you're all comparing Great Ape Vegeta to just Captain Ginyu when there's four others in that force. Recoome, the second strongest, probably isn't to far from Ginyu in PL. So perhaps Great Ape Vegeta is stronger than each individual member. But the question is, is that form more powerful than the collective whole of the group? Or better yet, even if he is stronger, could the Ginyu Force still gain an upperhand via tactics and hax?
On one final note, in the series's context, the Great Ape form was always hyped to be very powerful, to the point where Frieza valued that form highly due to its ability to conquer planets so easily.
Plus, Vegeta was aware of their special abilities. He knew Guldo could stop time, that Burtur was incredibly fast (probably the second fastest on the team, and faster than Vegeta), and he may or may not have been aware of Ginyu's body switching technique. Not to mention, Burtur and Jeice are very tactile.
So all in all, there's more to be afraid of in the Ginyu Force besides sheer power. Also, you're all comparing Great Ape Vegeta to just Captain Ginyu when there's four others in that force. Recoome, the second strongest, probably isn't to far from Ginyu in PL. So perhaps Great Ape Vegeta is stronger than each individual member. But the question is, is that form more powerful than the collective whole of the group? Or better yet, even if he is stronger, could the Ginyu Force still gain an upperhand via tactics and hax?
On one final note, in the series's context, the Great Ape form was always hyped to be very powerful, to the point where Frieza valued that form highly due to its ability to conquer planets so easily.
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Uh, Meleenium, everything you said is perfect, even better than how I'd put it, but Recoome isn't the second strongest. Even in the japanese song ( TOKUSENTAI! TOKUSENTAI! TOKUSENTAI! TOKUSENTAI! ) Jeice is mentioned to be the top 2 of the Ginyu Force. In the manga, in games, it's literally everywhere EXCEPT "official power level" lists. But that's a discussion for another day, Geets is still powerful and thats what matters.
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Jeice is probably second in command in the Ginyu Force, but it doesn't mean he's the second strongest. It makes sense, because he seems like he's a lot smarter than Recoome. Not that Recoome is dumb or anything, but it just seems like Jeice would have better leadership skills. I think Recoome is just the "muscle" of the group.
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Well, I think that we regrettably have to use the power levels in order to compare characters to each other, in lack of better options (although Anderson2003 made some good points about that, official or not, they do not always seem thought through).
As has been stated previously, however, we can only use this as a very rough gauge, not for any specific attack potency scale energy level increases.
As has been stated previously, however, we can only use this as a very rough gauge, not for any specific attack potency scale energy level increases.
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- Thread starter
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Should we downgrade the five named above to make this less regrettable?
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Jeice was mentioned directly of being stronger, actually. Thats what Im saying. I dont have a scan currently, but I could take my time and go to a site to find it. Jeice states he is the third strongest in the universe. In fact, Jeice fought kinda evenly and could hurt a Zenkai Vegeta, one who was already stronger than Recoome.
Just leave things as they are. Everything's k. Oozaru is TEN TIMES the transformed's power, it's no pushover. And Vegeta's fear without it is reasonable, just as Ginyu being a bit weaker in comparison also is if we go by power levels.
Basically, I'd put Saiyan Saga Vegeta at a 10.000, overloading 18.000.
His Oozaru would be 100.000 and still weaker than Ginyu, since I put him at 150.000 ( while other places state he is 120.000 )
Just leave things as they are. Everything's k. Oozaru is TEN TIMES the transformed's power, it's no pushover. And Vegeta's fear without it is reasonable, just as Ginyu being a bit weaker in comparison also is if we go by power levels.
Basically, I'd put Saiyan Saga Vegeta at a 10.000, overloading 18.000.
His Oozaru would be 100.000 and still weaker than Ginyu, since I put him at 150.000 ( while other places state he is 120.000 )
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As we all know, power levels simply don't work in DBZ, if Vegeta at 18,000 was at absolute maximum able to destroy the planet (Granted this is due to the method of firing at the core and letting physics do all the hard work for him, but planet level is planet level nonetheless), yet Frieza at 50% power (I believe that's what he was when he tried to destroy Namek? Or was he at 100% by then, either way, he should be around 60,000,000 or 120,000,000 in terms of power level, at that stage he should be able to destroy a planet just by looking at it too hard, yet he still had to rely on hitting the core rather than just his attack completely olbiterating it through sheer force. So with that out of the way, I don't think GAV having a power level of 180,000 compared with Ginyu's 120,000 makes him directly stronger, otherwise he should rank far higher in Frieza'as army, or even if it did, he still has a reason to fear the ginyu force since he needs a reliable source of being able to transform, as well as him being rather sluggish (At least that's how its animated) so odds are he loses the speed advantage at the expense of being able to hit harder, and if he can't hit his opponent then what's the point.
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@Kyo officially 10,000 is required for planet busting I believe.
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The DBZ verse uses Ki, which being energy, means that using a finger shouldn't have any more or less impact than if you used your entire hand. And again, power levels don't work, so whilst his final form is much stronger than his first, it's not like he went up on the busting scale any any severe degree or such due to being 100's of times stronger or anything.Antvasima said:
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But... why? He knows he can survive in space and Goku can't, why is he giving Goku a time limit to stop him as opposed to just saying "No sorry you die here"... okay I know why it's due to plot convenience and the fact that everyone in DBZ is a freaking moron but still.FTW395 said:
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>Asks why
>Answers his own question. And I think you mistook the word moron for cocky.
As for the busting scale, it depends, as the High 5-A - High 4-C isn't as big as a jump.
Also this thread seems to have sidetracked hard, should I close it?
>Answers his own question. And I think you mistook the word moron for cocky.
As for the busting scale, it depends, as the High 5-A - High 4-C isn't as big as a jump.
Also this thread seems to have sidetracked hard, should I close it?
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Most of us already decided to keep the stats of GAV being stronger than Ginyu, if people will make a revision about Ginyu it should be in another thread, this seems that it already conclude.
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