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Vegeta Downgrade (Great Ape only)

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No. Base 'ku is. And we have SS boosting Goku by about the same amount we're currently boosting Vegeta
 
@Cal Your calc staking, the result we got from Ginyu, 47 times, than applying it to Vegeta post Zenkai to prove your point. It is not going to make him 47X stronger every time he uses it, since PLs are non linear it could range as far as millions to as low as time times.
 
I don't see how you're coming up with that. Because that's how boosts work in most scenarios. Including in DB. That's not calc stacking, because first off, there's no calc as were retroactively scaling from Frieza, and second, I'm using our chart to disprove something, while calc stacking is for inflated results.
 
Cal can you explain your reasoning for this downgrade, I must be misunderstanding something because it sounds like your reasoning is because Great Ape is too close to SSJ.

(Sorry if I'm being rude that's not my intention)
 
You're not being rude man, as a matter of a fact, that was rather nice. Anyway, that basically is the reasoning. Lore wise, Oozaru being anywhere near SS in multiplier boosts is silly, along with the fact that Ginyus are all very, very above Vegeta in the Saiyan Saga, and this whole "Ginyus would beat it anyway because they know the weakness" is pure speculation. Krillin knew the weakness.
 
I can retroactively scale Farmer with Shotgun from Frieza and make him 5-A.

Here is more clear example:

  • Vegeta PL = 18000, with Oozaru= 180000 making him stronger 47X
  • So for the sake of argumentation lets say Cell had a PL of 2 and was SS level, Vegeta has a PL of 1 in base and is large star level. Oozaru here would only multiply his stats by like 5 here.
To quote TFS "PL are BS" to circumvent this we need to look at them one case at a time because doing what were doing here is guaranteed to not makes sense whats so ever because Akira Toriyama didnt try to make them consistent.
 
In that case, downgrade Ginyu, because even with all of this, my points still stand.

Here's a counter to what you are currently saying. If Goku unlocked Super Saiyan right then when he was fighting Vegeta, Vegeta still has a really good chance of winning. And agreed. PLs are BS. And I don't know why we're using them at all.
 
Well we use Power Levels for in-universe scaling, if X has a higher Power Level than Y then X will get the same AP stats as Y, because he's evidently stronger than Y. We don't however use Power Levels to scale feats, like for instance saying Ginyu's AP is 6.667 times higher than Vegeta's because his Power Level is 6.6667 times bigger than Vegeta's. We only use power levels when it's explicitly stated in the manga that a certain thing multiplies a Power level by a certain amount, like Kaio-Ken and the Great Ape.

Hope that makes sense.
 
The real cal howard said:
In that case, downgrade Ginyu, because even with all of this, my points still stand..
Click to expand...
No. This will not only downgrade Ginyu, but even Shisami, Lord Slug and Turles.
 
We use PL cuz the the canonical way of scaling between characters, even if doesn't fit exactly in our system, is what show how powerful the characters are (at least until Namek Saga); if it say that GAV is stronger than Ginyu, then he is stronger than Ginyu, independently of our system. 5-A Ginyu doesn't sound farfetched, but I would like to hear the reason tho.
 
We only use PLs to tell if Character A is stronger than Character B right? Great Ape Vegeta has a higher PL than Ginyu so that makes him stronger, we just can't say how much stronger because PLs doesn't work like that correct?

Besides SSJ is still 3X stronger than Great Ape with your reasoning and, being 3X stronger is more than enough to blitz and stomp from what I have heard.

Does it bother you that much that the gap is that close?
 
We only use PLs to tell if Character A is stronger than Character B right? Great Ape Vegeta has a higher PL than Ginyu so that makes him stronger, we just can't say how much stronger because PLs doesn't work like that correct?

Besides SSJ is still 3X stronger than Great Ape with your reasoning and, being 3X stronger is more than enough to blitz and stomp from what I have heard.

Does it bother you that much that the gap is that close?
 
PL doesn't necesary increase speed in the same way it increase strength, some characters at the same PL level, like Burter and the other memebers, also, were the SSJ = 3xGAV come from?
 
@Cal your missing the point, I know im not explaining it very well but i'll try again.

  • PL of 1 = 5-B
  • PL of 2 = 5-A
  • PL of 4 = 4-C
  • Tom has a PL of 1 and a transformation of that multiplies it by 2.5 so when he uses it he is at least 5-A since it is a higher PL then 2. However stat wise it increases 47X.
  • Tom trains until his PL is 2, than his transformation multiplies it by 2.5 once again so with the transformation he is at least 4-C. Stat wise this multiplies it 55132000.
Same case here the multiplier stat wise changes depending on the base.
 
After looking at the history of SSJ multipliers and this wiki, it would appear we only accept SSJ as a Power level multiplier rather than a power one.
 
I agree with the downgrade. Power levels are very unreliable.
 
@Dark. No offence, because I respect you and all, but I don't care if it downgrades Shisami, Turles, and Lord Slug. Heck, I'm STILL planning on making a thread to regard the MFTL+ calc as an outlier.

@Sparky. He was always afraid of them. He was afraid of Zarbon too. Not too sure about Dodoria.

@Poincana. That's not how multiplication works, no offense. 47X and 50X isn't a difference with a gap with the factor of 3.

@Everyone else. Oozaru multiplies your PL by 10. SSJ multiplies your PL by 50. This very website has Oozaru multiply your power by 47X min. This site has SSJ multiply your power by about that number. See the problem?

@Rad. I still don't see how that's the case. As much as I respect you Rad, and I very much do, that sounds very speculative.
 
Promestein: I'm pretty sure this site uses PL to tell who is stronger and nothing else right? It's offical that GAV's PL would be higher than Captin Ginyu's.

So that makes it simple power scaling, Ginyu is Large Planet level and GAV is offical stronger than him so GAV would logical be Large Planet level yes?
 
In all honesty Ginyu and whoever else is rated at 5-A needs a downgrade to 5-B, because they don't have any feats to back them up being at 5-A.
 
@Cal, wait, since when we use multiplier in AP? People were using kk multiplier directly, but we dropped it since works equal to SSJ multiplier.
 
Just pointing out to my earlier comment:

"After looking at the history of SSJ multipliers and this wiki, it would appear we only accept SSJ as a Power level multiplier rather than a power one."

Kinda destroys this thread...
 
Just that PL's have that big of a variation for the same transformation simply because the base became more powerful. Especially because by that logic, Oozaru would give the least boost. Again. No offense, man.
 
Sorry Prom the Power levels are reliable if you put them this way:

Small Planet level: 300 to 9.850.

Planet level: 10.000 to 100.000.

Large Planet level: 105.000 to 450.000.

Dwarf Star level: 455.000 to 1.000000.

Small Star level: 1.100000.

Lastly the MFTL+ calc is not an outlier and there are a lot of MFTL+ feats in the Filler/Movies continuity, this is getting too far i will ask Ant to close this thread.
 
@SD. I answered that.

"@Everyone else. Oozaru multiplies your PL by 10. SSJ multiplies your PL by 50. This very website has Oozaru multiply your power by 47X min. This site has SSJ multiply your power by about that number. See the problem?"

Logically, SS should give more of a boost by far, with whatever reasoning we use, but it doesn't.
 
@Cal No offense but you are focused on the wrong character here. By all DBZ canon GAV is stronger than Ginyu. However, you aren't targeting the real problem here. The problem here is Ginyu who GAV is scaled to.
 
@Dark. We've recently had a big discussion on whether movies=/=anime canon, and the only thing that was for the cause was Cooler's 1 second cameo, and the tuffle arc being based off of that one video game. The anime only has MFTL+ feats by the time of Buu. No way someone went from SubRel+ to millions MFTL+ with no other feats backing that up for a LONG while. And Ant told me to make a thread about it too.
 
Dude Cal this is not the thread for that....You are derailing this one. No offense but if you are gonna make a thread for something make a thread for it. Don't derail this one...
 
@Dragon. I don't mind changing focus. GAV to Ginyu should be 5-B. And I'll drop the MFTL+ for now and make a thread about it another day.

@Rad. Possibly. Idk right now. Tired and stressed after finals.
 
Welp, maybe the main problem is Ginyu, I still thinking that the method used to upgrade Frieza use odd physics tho. About the speed thing, that is for another thread, this one as been debunked (I think)
 
The real cal howard said:
@Dragon. I don't mind changing focus. GAV to Ginyu should be 5-B. And I'll drop the MFTL+ for now and make a thread about it another day.
Click to expand...
One last question, if the dowgrade gets accepted how would you handle Tie profile?.
 
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