Upgrading Downstreamers to baseline 1-A

[Aeyu]

Given that the new description of 1-A details one only needs to transcend dimensional limitations, and it has been agreed that being 1-A doesn't automatically make one beyond all mathematical possibilities, just the ones that can be measured or calculated, shouldn't the Downstreamers get an upgrade to baseline 1-A? They are already possibly so, just not given the full rating due to the previous misunderstanding that if you have any mathematical complexity that you can't be 1-A. I would argue that the mathematical complexity experienced by such beings is greater than can be measured with any instruments we currently have, and that their ability to create infinite-dimensional hyperspaces like they were nothing (a la DB Nyarlathotep) definitely warrants them for this rating. The staff in general seem busy with more important things at the moment, so I figured I would take it upon myself to alleviate some of that pressure by starting this discussion. (though it will likely become a staff discussion again anyway)

 

[Antvasima]

You should preferably ask Azathoth to reply here.

 

[Aeyu]

On his profile? Got it.

 

[ZacharyGrossman273]

I agree with this

 

[Aeyu]

Waiting for Azzy's input.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

Technically speaking, the reason for the "possibly" in the first place is that by both our standards and things set up in-universe, the Downstreamer's ultimate feat is essentially extremely high-end High 1-B, but not 1-A. The "possibly 1-A", if it should be there, should be due to the potential full-on transcendence of all levels of this ultimate manifold/structure in its entirety, but I can't remember if them doing so is ever explicitly stated.

 

[Aeyu]

Is that the feat where they recreated an infinitely infinite multiverse with all possibilities? Or something else? The reason I was suggesting the upgrade is because it's stated that they transcend all of that, and are on the same or similar level as abstract dimensionless mathematical beings, presiding over all mathematical possibility, with themselves at the top of it all, being able to manipulate the laws of reality itself. Couldn't that make them 1-A entities?

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

"and are on the same or similar level as abstract dimensionless mathematical beings"

Where was this stated?

 

[Aeyu]

That part isn't so much as stated as it is inferred, IMO. If they can modify the entire manifold and reach into the scope of a manifold which transcends all manifolds, wouldn't that make them more likely 1-A than possibly? Especially since, as you said, they VASTLY transcend an infinite-dimensional hyperverse.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

Because the more direct nature of their feat is essentially creating what amounts to level IV multiverses within level IV multiverses, unless there's something I forgot about.

 

[Aeyu]

That's true, and they're infinite-dimensional multiverses inside of an infinite multiverse, which makes them High 1-B. And then they transcend the nature of those infinite infinities, and can manipulate the fabric of existence, which puts them at a veeeery high end High 1-B, as well as being at the top of reality (they're already at least High 1-B. A similar tiered character, Destiny of the Endless, isn't even possibly 1-A and he affected a 1-A being.) But my main argument for 1-A is their ability to reach beyond that and grasp at the ultimate manifold, as well as comprehend abstract beings beyond dimensions, which isn't something I think they could do if they weren't baseline 1-A. The reason is that while it's true that you could stick any tiered being in a dimensionless space and they would stay their tier, I doubt they would have any true *understanding* of the things that were beyond it, which they do. They are also beyond all laws of physics entirely, which would also hint at this fact, as well as being able to decipher the "ultimate manifold".

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

Yes, but I'm asking for the part where they interact with said beyond-dimensional beings.

 

[Aeyu]

I might have to go through and read the book again.