- 1
- 0
[Undertale: the concepts, the dimensionality, and the independence about such elements]
Without going too far into the argument, I would like to initially raise some important definitions.
Starting with dimensionality.
As a description of adimensional:
"Beyond-Dimensional Existence on this wiki refers to the state of being of characters who are superior in one way or another to the concept of dimensions. They are much different than merely zero-dimensional creatures, as rather than simply lacking dimensions at all (and thus are geometrically infinitesimal in every possible direction), they are conceptually superior to the concepts of dimensional physics."
Since a dimensional is someone who possesses the naturally independent of space-time, it is necessary to typify for better understanding.
We have:
"Type 0: Entities whose nature is defined by a lack of the concepts of space and time entirely, normally by preceding both of those constants, and as a result being untied from their effects and consequences, without necessarily exceeding them by virtue of size or some inherently superior nature. As a result, this category does not necessarily imply greater Attack Potency and most often overlaps with Acausality, Resistance to Space-Time Manipulation, Nonexistent Physiology, or all of the above."
Also:
"Type 1: Characters whose nature exceeds spatio-temporal dimensions in relation to a limited scope of existence, without automatically standing above further extensions of the concepts and their applications, usually due to some lack of evidence or context."
Now, all of the above being just one element of tier A/1, we begin the real focus of the thread.
The independence of the characters and why that means transcendence:
The way we interpret it, the quality of transcendence is related to the independence of a being from something. The transcendent class exists to classify characters with divine attributes, and we can interpret these as transcendent in relation to everything that makes up the universe, which encompasses:
Particles: Here, we include electrons, neutrons, protons, neutrinos, photons, positrons, múons, and others. These particles, in turn, are responsible for many of the things with which we interact, such as matter, antimatter, and light.
Dark matter and dark energy: Although we have little information about them, dark matter and dark energy make up most of the composition of our universe.
Dimensions: We have several interpretations of what a dimension can be, and in this case, we are dealing with spatial dimensions. For linear algebra, dimensions are the number of linearly independent vectors that form a basis vector space. Taking physical space as a vector space, transcending dimensions is equivalent to transcending space itself.
Time: We can interpret time as the measured interval by which we identify the occurrence of events. That is, if events occur at different times, time is what allows us to identify these moments. A transcendent being, although participating in these relations, does not depend on them.
The Four Fundamental Forces of Nature: weak nuclear force, strong nuclear force, gravitational force, and electromagnetic force.
Physical Quantities: Physical quantities are properties or relationships that can be measured in a phenomenon, body, or substance. Included here are things like energy, mass, volume, velocity, momentum, etc."
Characters who have the ability to affect states transcendental to the energy system, which encompasses all the previous levels. This state is usually portrayed as transcendental and an abstraction that is entirely external and beyond the applications of the concept of space and time with a constant defined by physics at any level, outside of the Totality itself to which all previous levels are limited (such as Infinity). The energy of these beings cannot be limited and determined by any physical quantity, because it is portrayed as being a higher power than the physical concept of energy. A Transcendent character completely transcends the hierarchical system and is beyond what defines it.
By definition, we know that a Transcendent is self-sustaining without the application of the concepts themselves.
To be Transcendent, you must be idependent of everything that defines reality, either being prior to it or somehow becoming a point apart.
Having defined most of the elements raised here, we can move on to the explanation.
ANNOYING DOG AND ITS SELF-SUPPORT
To begin, we will recall who Annoying Dog is.
Annoying Dog is the avatar of Toby Fox and also the entity that gave birth to reality.
"By barking with text-to-speech-on, the dog accidentally programmed a whole game."
Now, the question is:
What does this imply about transcendence? It is something quite simple.
We have a direct quote that Toby's avatar "programmed" the elements evidenced in the explanation.
And linked to that, we have yet another situation where it appears unaffected after the elements of reality become corrupted
And finally, we have a direct power scaling with Asriel Dreemur, which we will work on next.
ASRIEL DREEMURR AND HIS SELF-SUPPORT
This case is somewhat different from the previous one, because while Annoying Dog's argument is that he created all the elements of reality and is idendent of it, Asriel is the perfect opposite. Whereas Toby's avatar built reality, Asriel destroys it.
As seen here
Asriel's presence was simply deleting the world and Frisk herself.
You can see the applications when the other characters appear. Where their existence is disturbed and has already begun to fade away.
So what is the key point in talking about transcendence?
We must analyze that there are many cases where non-transcendental characters go to places with no concepts, true voids. however, most of these characters simply get sent there, like for example Thanos in Supremes, who was imprisoning in the void.
Now, the difference in this to a true Transcendent (not that Thanos isn't, it's just an analogy) is that the character sent into a void doesn't exhibit any kind of self-sustenance. He simply stands there and takes no damage because there is nothing to affect him. he doesnt cease to posses concepts by being in a place without the existence of concepts because he is a cluster of concepts.
A transcendent character is beyond all the concepts that the previous example clusters because he is naturally beyond them, which apply in space-time.
A character like Asriel, who possesses an existence that abominate the the elements of reality to the point that his vague presence collapses it is virtually free of any concept because he remains unaffected in the face of damage to the totality of them.
A perfect example of how affecting concepts would affect a character if he were subjected to them is Frisk himself, who would inevitably be erased along with the concepts.
THE RELATIONSHIP BETWEEN ANNOYING DOG AND ASRIEL DREEMURR
Synthesizing everything so far, we have that both characters have a consistent base to 1-A and that is supported by the fact that the two remain unaffected in the face of literal non-existence. However, the point I mentioned during the explanation about Annoying Dog is complemented here.
We have that:
Asriel up to 1-A
Annoying Dog is infinitely superior to Asriel, since Asriel is merely his creation. Annoying Dog, then, up to 1-A
COHERENCE IN RELATION TO THE VERSE
The Upgrade is very consistente because:
The upgrade in Asriel and Annoying Dog would be perfectly coherent, as the feacts of both characteres differs from those of Omega Flowey and Chara.
While the former duo has direct citation to their ontological independence, the latter has only feats and citations of pure destructive power, related only to space-time. Without a clear proof of self-sustainability.
Soon, giving the upgrade to the two god tiers in the verse does not directly influence the other chars. (It is noted that even Frisk's determination did not affect Asriel's condition. Although it plugged part of the hole in reality, it would not be enough and so she had to win by using the char's morale directly).
CONCLUSION
As I said in the beginning, this is a thread without much winding up. I tried to get to the point.
Feel free to show your opinions and present possible counter-arguments.
Without going too far into the argument, I would like to initially raise some important definitions.
Starting with dimensionality.
As a description of adimensional:
"Beyond-Dimensional Existence on this wiki refers to the state of being of characters who are superior in one way or another to the concept of dimensions. They are much different than merely zero-dimensional creatures, as rather than simply lacking dimensions at all (and thus are geometrically infinitesimal in every possible direction), they are conceptually superior to the concepts of dimensional physics."
Since a dimensional is someone who possesses the naturally independent of space-time, it is necessary to typify for better understanding.
We have:
"Type 0: Entities whose nature is defined by a lack of the concepts of space and time entirely, normally by preceding both of those constants, and as a result being untied from their effects and consequences, without necessarily exceeding them by virtue of size or some inherently superior nature. As a result, this category does not necessarily imply greater Attack Potency and most often overlaps with Acausality, Resistance to Space-Time Manipulation, Nonexistent Physiology, or all of the above."
Also:
"Type 1: Characters whose nature exceeds spatio-temporal dimensions in relation to a limited scope of existence, without automatically standing above further extensions of the concepts and their applications, usually due to some lack of evidence or context."
Now, all of the above being just one element of tier A/1, we begin the real focus of the thread.
The independence of the characters and why that means transcendence:
The way we interpret it, the quality of transcendence is related to the independence of a being from something. The transcendent class exists to classify characters with divine attributes, and we can interpret these as transcendent in relation to everything that makes up the universe, which encompasses:
Particles: Here, we include electrons, neutrons, protons, neutrinos, photons, positrons, múons, and others. These particles, in turn, are responsible for many of the things with which we interact, such as matter, antimatter, and light.
Dark matter and dark energy: Although we have little information about them, dark matter and dark energy make up most of the composition of our universe.
Dimensions: We have several interpretations of what a dimension can be, and in this case, we are dealing with spatial dimensions. For linear algebra, dimensions are the number of linearly independent vectors that form a basis vector space. Taking physical space as a vector space, transcending dimensions is equivalent to transcending space itself.
Time: We can interpret time as the measured interval by which we identify the occurrence of events. That is, if events occur at different times, time is what allows us to identify these moments. A transcendent being, although participating in these relations, does not depend on them.
The Four Fundamental Forces of Nature: weak nuclear force, strong nuclear force, gravitational force, and electromagnetic force.
Physical Quantities: Physical quantities are properties or relationships that can be measured in a phenomenon, body, or substance. Included here are things like energy, mass, volume, velocity, momentum, etc."
Characters who have the ability to affect states transcendental to the energy system, which encompasses all the previous levels. This state is usually portrayed as transcendental and an abstraction that is entirely external and beyond the applications of the concept of space and time with a constant defined by physics at any level, outside of the Totality itself to which all previous levels are limited (such as Infinity). The energy of these beings cannot be limited and determined by any physical quantity, because it is portrayed as being a higher power than the physical concept of energy. A Transcendent character completely transcends the hierarchical system and is beyond what defines it.
By definition, we know that a Transcendent is self-sustaining without the application of the concepts themselves.
To be Transcendent, you must be idependent of everything that defines reality, either being prior to it or somehow becoming a point apart.
Having defined most of the elements raised here, we can move on to the explanation.
ANNOYING DOG AND ITS SELF-SUPPORT
To begin, we will recall who Annoying Dog is.
Annoying Dog is the avatar of Toby Fox and also the entity that gave birth to reality.
"By barking with text-to-speech-on, the dog accidentally programmed a whole game."
Now, the question is:
What does this imply about transcendence? It is something quite simple.
We have a direct quote that Toby's avatar "programmed" the elements evidenced in the explanation.
And linked to that, we have yet another situation where it appears unaffected after the elements of reality become corrupted
And finally, we have a direct power scaling with Asriel Dreemur, which we will work on next.
ASRIEL DREEMURR AND HIS SELF-SUPPORT
This case is somewhat different from the previous one, because while Annoying Dog's argument is that he created all the elements of reality and is idendent of it, Asriel is the perfect opposite. Whereas Toby's avatar built reality, Asriel destroys it.
As seen here
Asriel's presence was simply deleting the world and Frisk herself.
You can see the applications when the other characters appear. Where their existence is disturbed and has already begun to fade away.
So what is the key point in talking about transcendence?
We must analyze that there are many cases where non-transcendental characters go to places with no concepts, true voids. however, most of these characters simply get sent there, like for example Thanos in Supremes, who was imprisoning in the void.
Now, the difference in this to a true Transcendent (not that Thanos isn't, it's just an analogy) is that the character sent into a void doesn't exhibit any kind of self-sustenance. He simply stands there and takes no damage because there is nothing to affect him. he doesnt cease to posses concepts by being in a place without the existence of concepts because he is a cluster of concepts.
A transcendent character is beyond all the concepts that the previous example clusters because he is naturally beyond them, which apply in space-time.
A character like Asriel, who possesses an existence that abominate the the elements of reality to the point that his vague presence collapses it is virtually free of any concept because he remains unaffected in the face of damage to the totality of them.
A perfect example of how affecting concepts would affect a character if he were subjected to them is Frisk himself, who would inevitably be erased along with the concepts.
THE RELATIONSHIP BETWEEN ANNOYING DOG AND ASRIEL DREEMURR
Synthesizing everything so far, we have that both characters have a consistent base to 1-A and that is supported by the fact that the two remain unaffected in the face of literal non-existence. However, the point I mentioned during the explanation about Annoying Dog is complemented here.
We have that:
Asriel up to 1-A
Annoying Dog is infinitely superior to Asriel, since Asriel is merely his creation. Annoying Dog, then, up to 1-A
COHERENCE IN RELATION TO THE VERSE
The Upgrade is very consistente because:
The upgrade in Asriel and Annoying Dog would be perfectly coherent, as the feacts of both characteres differs from those of Omega Flowey and Chara.
While the former duo has direct citation to their ontological independence, the latter has only feats and citations of pure destructive power, related only to space-time. Without a clear proof of self-sustainability.
Soon, giving the upgrade to the two god tiers in the verse does not directly influence the other chars. (It is noted that even Frisk's determination did not affect Asriel's condition. Although it plugged part of the hole in reality, it would not be enough and so she had to win by using the char's morale directly).
CONCLUSION
As I said in the beginning, this is a thread without much winding up. I tried to get to the point.
Feel free to show your opinions and present possible counter-arguments.
