Undertale Speed Downgrade

[DaReaperMan]

Chara

Chara was the first human to fall into the Underground. They were adopted by King Asgore and Queen Toriel after being rescued by their son Asriel, becoming an adoptive member of the family. Not much is know about the child's past or personality while they were alive, but they were described by...

vsbattles.fandom.com

Massively Hypersonic+ while using Frisk's body (Killed Sans without giving him a chance to react)

Except Chara... didn't.

Like in the scan given Sans blatantly reacts if you look at his facial expression, he just sucks dick at dodging consecutive attacks.

TLDR: Sans' skill is just wanked and he wasn't blitzed at all.

 

[Imaginym]

So Sans has the Reaction Speed to perceive it but not the... Combat Speed to evade it?

 

[DaReaperMan]

So Sans has the Reaction Speed to perceive it but not the... Combat Speed to evade it?

Reaction speed is basically the ability to dodge, the more correct term if you want to get into it is Perception Speed for people who can't really dodge what they see.

 

[Ebihara]

Makes sense to me

 

[Wankbreaker]

Seems sound to me

 

[StrymULTRA]

I'm neutral as reaction and perception ARE different things tbh.

Plus change the title as shit is misleading.

 

[Huesito88]

With a title like that I thought for a second you were attempting a different speed downgrade

 

[StrymULTRA]

he just sucks dick at dodging consecutive attacks.

Actually this is a blatant lie.

I've seen the scene again and Sans literally had time to speak before Chara kicked in. It's not that he received a slash then another one instantly after like you're proposing.

So yeah... No, change me to disagree.

Edit: If by "blitzed before reacting" needs to be changed coz semantics, them just change it to "Killed Sans by hitting him before he managed to dodge", don't care how it ends up

 

[TheOrangeGuy09]

What Sans did was perceive the event (changed his face), not react to it (dodge), as the definitions of this website go. I see nothing wrong with the wording. Have to disagree with you there.

 

[Kyleb79]

Seems this thread was never concluded. I always saw Sans dodge as more a concept of skill rather than speed. Sans wasn't too fast, he just was able to predict and dodge the predictable attack every time.

If he was so fast to perceive and dodge, then he wouldn't have been surprised attacked when he was looking directly at them.

 

[TheOrangeGuy09]

Seems this thread was never concluded. I always saw Sans dodge as more a concept of skill rather than speed. Sans wasn't too fast, he just was able to predict and dodge the predictable attack every time.

That’s why he dodges even while sleeping or after a ton of resets?

If he was so fast to perceive and dodge, then he wouldn't have been surprised attacked when he was looking directly at them.

It was already accepted that the last attack was made by Chara and they just blitzed Sans.

 

[Dark_Soul20189]

The downgrade looks good to me.

 

[Kyleb79]

That’s why he dodges even while sleeping or after a ton of resets?

Seems Sans saw it coming. It's kind of why he's so confident when he says "Did you really think?"

It was already accepted that the last attack was made by Chara and they just blitzed Sans.

Using Frisk's body though. They didn't really blitz him, just off guarded him for swinging twice. And it's not like Chara can make Frisk's body faster.

 

[StrymULTRA]

And it's not like Chara can make Frisk's body faster.

Says who?

 

[Kyleb79]

Says who?

On the contary just the lack of arguments on the other side that they do make Frisk faster, since nothing suggests they're amplifying them; especially since Chara says the relationship between the two is on Frisk/The Players behalf of earning power. Chara simply controlled Frisk's swing and hit him, and Sans is both off guard and also isn't that unbelievably fast in comparison to see a swing in slow motion. Infact both scans they have just have Chara offguarding individual's.

 

[TheOrangeGuy09]

Seems Sans saw it coming. It's kind of why he's so confident when he says "Did you really think?"

Headcanon. We legit see him sleep after tiring out, and still dodging. And your "point" does not address the fact that even after hell ton of tries, Frisk still cannot land a single hit on Sans.

Using Frisk's body though. And it's not like Chara can make Frisk's body faster.

Reactions and combat speed are not linked to one's body. Also it's fiction, cope.

They didn't really blitz him, just off guarded him for swinging twice.

This would not make him unable to dodge or be off guard at all? What kind of logic is this? Especially for a character with Instinctive Action.

 

[Kyleb79]

Headcanon. We legit see him sleep after tiring out, and still dodging. And your "point" does not address the fact that even after hell ton of tries, Frisk still cannot land a single hit on Sans.

You don't have to be so much faster than your opponent to do this. You can just be good at dodging. Especially with Sans's knowledge on game mechanics, a predictable attack would be even easier. As for Sans not predicting you would attack him after falling asleep, he mocks you for that split second for "really thinking" they could hit him.

Reactions and combat speed are not linked to one's body. Also it's fiction, cope.

Narratively Chara is just possessing Frisk's body. So yeah, they used their attack speed to tag Sans. Nothing suggests they amplified them or anything.

This would not make him unable to dodge or be off guard at all? What kind of logic is this? Especially for a character with Instinctive Action.

Chara breaks the rule by attacking twice, so yes he's off-guarded. In terms of Instinctive Action, even Sans' justification for it says right after "only getting hit when Frisk broke the game's combat system" which goes into that same notion that Chara didn't blitz Sans, just caught him off guard by going against the game's rules.

I don't think it's hard to imagine that Sans after getting in the habit of dodging Frisk multiple times, that when Chara steps in breaking the rules by striking him two consecutive times when Sans thought it was impossible, rather than Chara amplifying Frisk to be able to blitz foes.

 

[TheOrangeGuy09]

You don't have to be so much faster than your opponent to do this. You can just be good at dodging.

Too bad, it's accepted! Do a separate CRT to fodderize both Sans and Chara if you wish so, since what you're talking about is not the direction Reaper meant to go with.

Especially with Sans's knowledge on game mechanics, a predictable attack would be even easier.

Game mechanics are not canon, at least on this wiki.

As for Sans not predicting you would attack him after falling asleep, he mocks you for that split second for "really thinking" they could hit him.

And? I don't see how it supports your point at all. You do NOT "predict" an attack while asleep, and "didja really think" does not imply that he predicted anything.
And again, make your own CRT on that to remove Sans' reactions rating and Instinctive Action.

Narratively Chara is just possessing Frisk's body. So yeah, they used their attack speed to tag Sans. Nothing suggests they amplified them or anything.

Before Chara's intervention: 24 attempts, 0 hits.
After Chara's intervention: 1 attempt, 1 hit.

Hmmm, yeah, nothing special!

Chara breaks the rule by attacking twice, so yes he's off-guarded.

It's not canonical rule of the game, unless you do (yet again!) a separate CRT that enforces "turns" system as canon and thus Omega Flowey, Chara, Sans, and maybe a couple of others get Law Manipulation. Without that, it's not canon thus dismissed.

In terms of Instinctive Action, even Sans' justification for it says right after "only getting hit when Frisk broke the game's combat system"

Outdated and should be changed. The real reason is here:

with higher reactions (Capable of consistently dodging Frisk to such a degree that they could never land a hit on Sans, even if they reset and knew exactly what he would do and where he would be, and even if he was asleep. Was only hit after Chara interfered)

which goes into that same notion that Chara didn't blitz Sans, just caught him off guard by going against the game's rules.

Turns are not canon, make your own CRT, etc.

I don't think it's hard to imagine that Sans after getting in the habit of dodging Frisk multiple times, that when Chara steps in breaking the rules by striking him two consecutive times when Sans thought it was impossible, rather than Chara amplifying Frisk to be able to blitz foes.

Turns are not canon, make your own CRT, etc.

 

[Kyleb79]

Too bad, it's accepted! Do a separate CRT to fodderize both Sans and Chara if you wish so, since what you're talking about is not the direction Reaper meant to go with.

I don't wish to make a separate CRT, I agree with Reaper's direction that Chara didn't blitz Sans. I don't think it fodderizes them either, Sans just has skill to dodge which would be helpful in a matchup where speed is equalized I imagine. And Chara being = to a person they possess shouldn't be a reach.

Before Chara's intervention: 24 attempts, 0 hits.
After Chara's intervention: 1 attempt, 1 hit.

Hmmm, yeah, nothing special!

It was special. Sans acknowledges "one of your turns you're just going to hit me", he wasn't expecting two consecutive attacks. Even if you want to use instinctive reactions, nothing suggests it always works or rather than he'd instinctively react to something he wasn't expecting. Even by its own definition, it's a muscle memory instinct. Throughout the battle, it was only a single attack.

I'm not really going to push this agenda for any downgrades or whatnot. But I never saw the implication that Sans was too fast to hit, he was just good. And on the original topic and in addition to the thread's discussion I don't think Chara "blitzed" nor think Chara (Posessing Frisk) being Frisk's speed is anything insane, especially since you pointed out it's just fictional as a response.

 

[TheOrangeGuy09]

I don't wish to make a separate CRT

Then no need to spend time on this entire argument at all lmao. You want to revise already accepted stuff — make your own CRT or just deal with the fact that it won't be accepted as an actual argument here.

 

[Kyleb79]

Then no need to spend time on this entire argument at all lmao. You want to revise already accepted stuff — make your own CRT or just deal with the fact that it won't be accepted as an actual argument here.

I still agree with the notion that Chara didn't blitz Sans, which is on topic to this thread. And am proposing they have equal speed to the person they are you know, possessing.

 

[TheOrangeGuy09]

I still agree with the notion that Chara didn't blitz Sans, which is on topic to this thread. And am proposing they have equal speed to the person they are you know, possessing.

Your argument goes against what is accepted and what is not OP even thought at all, so not really a valid argument. Make your own CRT or ask Reaper to add this to OP (aka, turns being canon).

Also, your argument is still just a pure headcanon that Sans "predicts" where he will get hit and somehow a simple second attack makes all of his skills and IA so bad he cannot dodge it.

(This would also remove all of his matchups btw, since all of his opponents would try to beat him in a row and not use "turns")

 

[Kyleb79]

Your argument goes against what is accepted and what is not OP even thought at all, so not really a valid argument. Make your own CRT or ask Reaper to add this to OP (aka, turns being canon).

Even without the turn stuff. Chara Possessing Frisk's body and having their speed isn't a stretch and not even fodder. The alternative reason to this being that "it's just fiction they ignored this" that you proposed doesn't sound that convincing in my opinion. Because it's just an assumption that Chara is faster

Also, your argument is still just a pure headcanon that Sans "predicts" where he will get hit and somehow a simple second attack makes all of his skills and IA so bad he cannot dodge it.

Instinctively Sans was dodging a single attack 24 times in a row in about the same way, each time he dodges and then talks. The one occasion where he gets hit just so happens to be the occasion where they strike out twice, which is why he speaks after the first strike and the second strike leaps right in the middle of his speech; an outlier. This also questions the extent of his IA, he dodges one attack each time from what we see. Reaper mentions Sans sucking at consecutive attacks and I can kind of see why even if I'm not really that onboard to that idea.

 

[TheOrangeGuy09]

Even without the turn stuff. Chara Possessing Frisk's body and having their speed isn't a stretch and not even fodder. The alternative reason to this being that "it's just fiction they ignored this" that you proposed doesn't sound that convincing in my opinion. Because it's just an assumption that Chara is faster

It's not an assumption? Frisk genuinely hit no times and Chara blitzed him for the first time? What the hell are you on?

Instinctively Sans was dodging a single attack 24 times in a row in about the same way, each time he dodges and then talks.

Even if Frisk resets and knows exactly Sans is and where he will dodge.

The one occasion where he gets hit just so happens to be the occasion where they strike out twice, which is why he speaks after the first strike and the second strike leaps right in the middle of his speech; an outlier. This also questions the extent of his IA, he dodges one attack each time from what we see.

This is NOT how this works. If you are massively faster than someone, hitting you twice WILL NOT get you ******* blitzed. Especially if you have a ******* goddamn IA.

Reaper mentions Sans sucking at consecutive attacks and I can kind of see why even if I'm not really that onboard to that idea.

Actually this is a blatant lie.

I've seen the scene again and Sans literally had time to speak before Chara kicked in. It's not that he received a slash then another one instantly after like you're proposing.

 

[Greatsage13th]

^^^
This makes sense to me

 

[Kyleb79]

It's not an assumption? Frisk genuinely hit no times and Chara blitzed him for the first time? What the hell are you on?

It's still an assumption; nothing canonical, no information, nothing to suggest Chara can buff or make Frisk faster. Especially since in canon, Frisk is the one with all the powers. Chara just has control over the vessel.

Even if Frisk resets and knows exactly Sans is and where he will dodge.

From what we see, Frisk swings. Sans dodges once. It doesn't seem to be anything special. Sans performs the same dodge instinctively when he's sleeping, but this time Chara steps in and makes it consecutive.

This is NOT how this works. If you are massively faster than someone, hitting you twice WILL NOT get you ******* blitzed. Especially if you have a ******* goddamn IA.

You should probably add that to the profile, since there are no mentions of Sans being massively faster. Just consistently dodging to such an impressive agree to warrant a higher speed. This just suggests Sans isn't incomparable in reactions. IA has proven in terms of what we see on screen to be able to dodge one attack, done exactly the same after every turn. So Chara pulling in to attack him consecutively twice in one term is not the instinct he was doing throughout the battle. Whatever that translates to in what happened canonically (outside game mechanics) as is moving your battle box/sans saying he won't let it be your turn is harder to imagine, but it was an outlier that caught him off guard.

I'll leave it at that, feel free to comment. I'll watch over the thread and see where it goes.

 

[TheOrangeGuy09]

I give up with this, you are either trolling or just intentionally downplaying everything. The same type of guy to have Asriel at 9-A.
Not entertaining you with this anymore.

 

[Kyleb79]

I give up with this, you are either trolling or just intentionally downplaying everything. The same type of guy to have Asriel at 9-A.
Not entertaining you with this anymore.

Look I don't want to troll or anything. I just try to word things respectfully which may come across differently.

I just don't think Sans is incomparably faster compared to Frisk. Or that Chara can make Frisk faster.

Outside of that, I've been supporting 2-B Undertale since day one. I feel Sans not being that fast and using more raw skill to dodge is technically better in VS Threads if speed was equalized.

 

[LightSoul8]

It's not canonical rule of the game, unless you do (yet again!) a separate CRT that enforces "turns" system as canon and thus Omega Flowey, Chara, Sans, and maybe a couple of others get Law Manipulation. Without that, it's not canon thus dismissed.

I mean...

It was special. Sans acknowledges "one of your turns you're just going to hit me", he wasn't expecting two consecutive attacks.

His exact dialogue is:

• i know i can't beat you.
• one of your turns...
• you're just gonna kill me.
• so, uh.
• i've decided...
• it's not gonna BE your turn. ever.
• i'm just gonna keep having MY turn until you give up.

I'm def not making that CRT though

 

[TheOrangeGuy09]

I mean...

His exact dialogue is:

• i know i can't beat you.
• one of your turns...
• you're just gonna kill me.
• so, uh.
• i've decided...
• it's not gonna BE your turn. ever.
• i'm just gonna keep having MY turn until you give up.

I'm def not making that CRT though

I am actually in favor of the idea that turns and FIGHT system are canon, but it failed here for some goofy ahhh reasons.

 

[Imaginym]

Does this thread have any stuff to still go over or conclude regarding it?

 

[TheOrangeGuy09]

Nope.