Undertale - MTT Kinetic Energy calculation

[The_Yellow_Topaz]

I'd like assistence with the following conundrum.

• We have this calculation of a robot from Undertale kicking at supersonic speeds: This one calculates the KE of a singular leg
• We have this calculation of the same: This one calculates the KE of all legs at the same time

The context is simple.

The steel legs were moved simultaneously, and alongside a electricity particle that we accept as real electricity. Thus, we calculated how much energy each leg had in KE, and said the robot who performed it scaled to one of the legs KE.

Each leg is independent of another one.

However, the new calculation says the robot should scale to all 5 legs combined, as they moved them all at the same time.

My point of contention was the inconsistency. The damage of a single leg is 4, and all the other robot attacks do the same damage (4), including other legs that move in one at a time and slower, do the same damage.

I'd like for this to be discussed by CGMs to find out which version is a true representative of MTT's strength.

 

[Greatsage13th]

Oi oi oi...we didn't need a second CRT just to discuss this Topaz!

 

[Therefir]

As I said before, they are 5 different attacks with 5 different kinetic energies, there is no reason to be adding up the weight.

Also, Frisk can be moderately damaged by the KE of a single leg, and I'm not buying the downscale argument anymore, since all of Mettaton's attacks inflict similar damage, meaning they are just as strong as a single leg's KE.

 

[StrymULTRA]

Wouldn't it make Knight Knight's attack just 9-A too?

Not adding anything else due to that RvR thing and thus I'm not getting involved in this anymore in a decisive way.

 

[Therefir]

Yes, though she will be downscaling from Mettaton as always.

 

[StrymULTRA]

Well...

You'll have to rework on that SOUL scaling blog too then ig.

 

[The_Yellow_Topaz]

Oi oi oi...we didn't need a second CRT just to discuss this Topaz!

We do actually!
This was not going to be resolved by regular members, so it's best to make a thread dedicated to discussing the calc before moving forward.

 

[Adem_Warlock69]

Yeah, we should only count the multiple things at once for Knight Knight

 

[The_Yellow_Topaz]

As I said before, they are 5 different attacks with 5 different kinetic energies, there is no reason to be adding up the weight.

Also, Frisk can be moderately damaged by the KE of a single leg, and I'm not buying the downscale argument anymore, since all of Mettaton's attacks inflict similar damage, meaning they are just as strong as a single leg's KE.

I agree with that notion.

HOWEVER​

Do you know if we have any other CGM who could give their input on this?
I tried contact KLOL but they didn't seem interested!
If you could ping Psycho, it would be greatly appreciated.​

 

[ShionAH]

Whats up with the Undertale threads all of a sudden? Is the verse being revived??

 

[KingNanaya]

Whats up with the Undertale threads all of a sudden? Is the verse being revived??

I'm all for it

 

[ShionAH]

I'm all for it

It got that slight burst after sans defeated like characters from DB and OPM and now we have this calculation war

 

[KingNanaya]

It got that slight burst after sans defeated like characters from DB and OPM and now we have this calculation war

I'm just enjoying the view fr

 

[Jason_Courne]

It wouldn't make sense if the collective energy of the kicks was lower than their individual energy

It's not really five different attacks in the same way a person throws five one handed jabs, it's five legs moving at Supersonic speeds all at the same time

 

[Therefir]

Sorry, I came to notice you that I won't be able to help much with these Undertale revisions, I had a job interview yesterday and today was notified that I had been chosen for an internship for the position, so I'll be focusing in that right now.

I recommend you to clear up the SOUL size first, then calculate the Metatton's leg KE, and then proceed with Vulkin's lightning depending on the result.

Strym's pixel measurements should be fine, you should be able to check the source code of his blog by pasting this after link: ?action=raw

 

[Jason_Courne]

Sorry, I came to notice you that I won't be able to help much with these Undertale revisions, I had a job interview yesterday and today was notified that I had been chosen for an internship for the position, so I'll be focusing in that right now.

Good luck

I recommend you to clear up the SOUL size first, then calculate the Metatton's leg KE, and then proceed with Vulkin's lightning depending on the result.

That's what I'm currently doing, I'm just giving my passing thoughts

 

[The_Yellow_Topaz]

Sorry, I came to notice you that I won't be able to help much with these Undertale revisions, I had a job interview yesterday and today was notified that I had been chosen for an internship for the position, so I'll be focusing in that right now.

Nice! I'm happy for you

 

[Agnaa]

Since it's simultaneously true that:

1. Each leg has a certain KE.
2. Other attacks are presumably equivalent to the KE of one leg.
3. Frisk only scales to the KE of one leg.
4. Mettaton can unleash the KE of multiple legs at once, in a way that would be relevant in matches on the wiki.

Couldn't we just give two ratings? Small Building+ for most attacks, Building with legs attack.

 

[Adem_Warlock69]

Nah, Mettaton's Magic would be 8-C if that's the case and as such Undyne would be 8-C,
And since even lads with 20 ATK and DEF downscale from her, Mettaton would be fully 8-C

 

[Agnaa]

Nah, Mettaton's Magic would be 8-C if that's the case and as such Undyne would be 8-C,
And since even lads with 20 ATK and DEF downscale from her, Mettaton would be fully 8-C

If you investigate the reason why you'd scale Mettaton's magic like that, I'm sure you'd find a contradiction with applying it in such a haphazard way.

We must be careful when scaling energy systems.

One particular thing of importance, is that attacks only scale to each other through a UES if they use up a similar amount of power. Saying that an entirety of one attack, which can cause damage multiple times, is equal to every tick of damage from another attack involving many projectiles, doesn't make a whole lot of sense.

Plus, downscaling from boss to boss to fodder to boss, to put the original back at a full rating, doesn't make a whole lot of sense either imo.

 

[Adem_Warlock69]

Mettaton spams the leg attack all throughout the fight and it's one of his first moves, and despite his EX form being noted as having battery problems, Mettaton doesn't show any signs of tiring, contrarily to Papyrus and Undyne who were exhausted by the end of their fights
Plus both his ATK and DEF values are rated as 47 (ATK also accounting for magic), so him physically being 9-A while having 8-C magic wouldn't make sense

We can really only either put him as 9-A or 8-C

 

[Agnaa]

Yes, the energy of him using entire attacks seems comparable, but you're saying that every single damaging aspect in attacks should get that rating, which seems unfounded. Actually, looking at it from that angle, maybe the ratings should be more like "9-A with individual attacks, 8-C with entire attack sequences".

Why do you say that ATK values, rather than just incorporating both physical and magic into an appropriate number, imply that their physical and magic energy output is the exact same?

 

[Agnaa]

A person that I talked to off-site said that Mettaton getting an 8-C rating would be an outlier, as that'd put him stronger than Undyne.

If that is the case, then that end should be ignored, but I'm not sure about whether the 9-A part should still be used. It's a strange situation.

 

[Jason_Courne]

A person that I talked to off-site said that Mettaton getting an 8-C rating would be an outlier, as that'd put him stronger than Undyne.

Not really an outlier if Undyne upscales it

 

[Adem_Warlock69]

Yes, the energy of him using entire attacks seems comparable, but you're saying that every single damaging aspect in attacks should get that rating, which seems unfounded. Actually, looking at it from that angle, maybe the ratings should be more like "9-A with individual attacks, 8-C with entire attack sequences".

That'd be akin to listing a character that throws multiple punches in a second as "9-C, 9-B with five punches"

 

[Agnaa]

That'd be akin to listing a character that throws multiple punches in a second as "9-C, 9-B with five punches"

We sometimes do kinda do that, it depends on presentation. If someone launched 50 punches in a tenth of a second, shattering a boulder, I don't think we'd rate their AP at the destruction of the boulder divided by 50. And when something takes longer than a second, we divide the destruction result by the time in seconds, not the exact number of blows we think they dished out.

We don't typically multiply up, because that'd be calc stacking across scenes; if one punch does 2^10 joules in one scene, and they throw 5 punches in one second in another scene, they won't be rated at 1^11 joules.

Also, I don't see a good reason to distinguish a character telekinetically launching a giant metal rod, and five smaller metal rods that add up to the same weight, at the same speed, at the same time.

 

[Adem_Warlock69]

Just realised the 8-C calc was calcing the legs all attacking at same time in the final attack, I thought it was for the first leg sequence lol
Don't see why this wouldn't scale to everyone stronger than Mettaton, we consider SOUL power to be Determination, I'm pretty sure
And Mettaton's SOUL doesn't persist after death and he doesn't pull a "I refuse" so he'd be weaker than Undyne and The Boss Monsters

 

[Therefir]

Having clarified that those legs are not his actual legs, but separated bullets that appear at the side of the screen, I'm still confused about the use of 5 different legs for the kinetic energy.

It's like having a gun with 5 different barrels, firing them at the same time, and adding the weight of all the bullets together with the speed of the bullets to get the kinetic energy.

It just doesn't sit right with me, even if Mettaton were to attack a giant with 5 of his legs at the same time, it would be still 5 individual attacks hitting the giant in tandem, it wouldn't be equivalent to a leg of 5 times the mass hitting the giant, at all.

You might assume that he would be able to move the weight of all 5 legs together, but at the end of the day that's just an assumption.

Since Mettaton's other attacks are all comparable in power to the KE of one leg, I will assume that his AT is equivalent to that one leg alone.

Undyne can summon multiple individual spears with a greater power than Mettaton's kicks, that doesn't mean we should add the power of those spears together.

 

[Adem_Warlock69]

What about what Agnaa said tho?

Also, I don't see a good reason to distinguish a character telekinetically launching a giant metal rod, and five smaller metal rods that add up to the same weight, at the same speed, at the same time.

 

[Therefir]

At no moment is an attack of 5 times the power of one leg generated, is it? The 5x times value doesn't actually exist at any given point, it's just an assumption of what Mettaton could potentially do if he just stick those legs together and moved them at the same speed.

I think Mettaton's other attacks having similar power to just one leg is really the biggest issue here, we would be scaling Undyne and stronger characters to a value that not even Mettaton himself scales from.

 

[Adem_Warlock69]

Here's the thing, Mettaton's 1 Leg attacks doesn't scale to his electricity, who's to say the first leg attacks weren't just faster than the 5 Legs move?

 

[Therefir]

Who's to say the 5 legs are just as long as the 1 leg attacks?

 

[Adem_Warlock69]

Who's to say the 5 legs are just as long as the 1 leg attacks?

Maybe they're about the same width? Didn't check tho

 

[Therefir]

Maybe they're about the same width? Didn't check tho

They appear to be about the same width, but at the same time they are a bit slower (visually).

But here's the thing, those legs are magically created, they don't always have to be 5~ meters long.

 

[Adem_Warlock69]

But here's the thing, those legs are magically created, they don't always have to be 5~ meters long.

It'd be pretty weird for Mettaton, who has been using the same consistent sizes for his attacks, to suddently create shorter versions of the legs for his final onslaught

 

[Therefir]

Maybe then being shorter is what allows him to launch a faster and more numerous attack? The longer legs appear inside and outside the combat box, while the shorter ones only appear inside the box.

The box isn't hiding 5 longer legs outside our view, since it couldn't hide the first leg attacks.

 

[Therefir]

Yeah, this confirms that the 5 leg attack is really just that short, it goes outside the box.

We should go back to measure the 5 legs attack, as that's when the actual feat is happening.

 

[Agnaa]

It just doesn't sit right with me, even if Mettaton were to attack a giant with 5 of his legs at the same time, it would be still 5 individual attacks hitting the giant in tandem, it wouldn't be equivalent to a leg of 5 times the mass hitting the giant, at all.

That's true, but the only difference would be the surface area, and we don't actually draw that distinction for indexing. If those five legs were fused together in a bundle, that would be far closer to having the same effect as 5 separate legs hitting the giant in tandem. The only difference being the cumulative stretching of skin being less distributed, but this is again something we just ignore when indexing.

You might assume that he would be able to move the weight of all 5 legs together, but at the end of the day that's just an assumption.

He is moving the weight of all 5 legs together. It's with telekinesis. And we do generally consider such things applicable to other attacks that utilize the same amount of their energy system, if they meet the standards for Universal Energy Systems, which Undertale seems to be accepted as meeting, given that we don't rate all of each characters' attacks separately.

Since Mettaton's other attacks are all comparable in power to the KE of one leg, I will assume that his AT is equivalent to that one leg alone.

I do agree with this.

Undyne can summon multiple individual spears with a greater power than Mettaton's kicks, that doesn't mean we should add the power of those spears together.

Because that'd be calc stacking.

I do think that re-measuring the attack's length is important before applying the calc.

 

[Therefir]

I do think that re-measuring the attack's length is important before applying the calc.

I have the calc ready once the new Soul height is accepted.

0.074 tons for 1 leg, 0.37 tons for 5 legs.

 

[The_Yellow_Topaz]

I have the calc ready once the new Soul height is accepted.

0.074 tons for 1 leg, 0.37 tons for 5 legs.

I love democracy