AyOgUyS
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Hold on, why are the average monsters being scaled to Flowey? Shouldn't he be like, way above average the average monster given he has DETERMINATION?
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Underground population Upgrade... And maybe more
- Thread starter EnderLord8
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EnderLord8
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ATK/DEF values from 18 and up are rated as High 8-C+ (7.28 Tons of TNT) due to Undyne (50 ATK/20 DEF), in order to become the leader of the Royal Guard, had to regularly train with Asgore (80 ATK) to the point of being even able to knock him down once, with the latter being unable to be defeated from Flowey, who moved an elevator at subsonic speeds, with Undyne also being able to tank well attacks from a Frisk who can take her hits. Weaker characters who fit within said range have showcased to still be close to that level of power, an example being Papyrus (20 ATK/20 DEF), is still called very strong from Undyne. Other examples are also Muffet (38.8 ATK/18.8 DEF) who can take blows on a similar degree, or Woshua (18 ATK), who can fight alongside Aaron (24 ATK)
ATK/DEF values from 2 to 17 are rated as downscaling from High 8-C+ (7.28 Tons of TNT), due to characters within said values, despite being weaker, being still roughly comparable to values higher than 18. An example are the Dogi (14 ATK/5 DEF each) being able to fight and take blows from Frisk, who in Showdin had enough Determination to harm and kill Jerry (30 DEF). Other showcases are Napstablook (10 ATK) being capable of harming Mad Dummy, who has 30 ATK and can take their own attacks, or also Lesser Dog (12 ATK/2 DEF), who could still harm and take Frisk's hits.
AyOgUyS
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This feels so wrong but I have no counter args : ((
GG you win
EnderLord8
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Bump
Qurbonboev
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My new blog post is trying to do this. And additionally it makes justification for using Mettaton ratings. Current conclusion: 30k for the whole Underground.
Estimating Underground Population
vsbattles.fandom.com
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EnderLord8
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That's good, but is there a way to separate the image into smaller pieces to make pixelation analysis easier? It's difficult to identify the images consistently.My new blog post is trying to do this. And additionally it makes justification for using Mettaton ratings. Current conclusion: 30k for the whole Underground.
Estimating Underground Population
Another point I should point out is that in the part where Frisk walks with Monster Kid, we see Asgore's castle and several houses around it. It looks like the city is more of a circle/semi-circle.
Looking carefully, wouldn't the Core be below the castle? Frisk enters the castle through the Core and then goes up to New Home. When walking through the castle, we see parts of New Home.
Qurbonboev
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Best I can do is add link to pixel scaled image to blog. And add link to original images here:
Probably yes.
Ti58
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Qurbonboev
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Only good argument it has is that in end of bomb defuse section he mentions only 8-10 viewers. But it doesn't mean that he couldn't have much more viewers in finale show. After all, we are talking about final fight between human and powerful robot. And rumors about him having having human in the show, would first spread slowly, and then suddenly everyone wants to see it
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To remind, its lower limit. New Home visibly extends to horizon, and by some unknown amount to right(anniversary stream). I would say 0.1 km^2 is reasonable high end for its size.
Btw, why did you assume 0.1 km^2?
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Qurbonboev
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Mostly vibes at the moment of writing. I just felt that city should be at least several times bigger than that, looking a horizon and new areas in stream. You can reach one end of city of such size from another end in around 5 minutes, minimum value for something I would call city.
If city does extends to castle(they are separate in lower end) city size is around 0.05 km^2 at least. If castle is in center, city size is around 0.2 km^2.
Don't forget this "calc" at best is Fermi estimate. You can easily make arguments for both higher and lower size, and both higher and lower population density. There just isn't enough data for more accurate quess. We don't know how exactly food is farmed(looks like they farm normal food, but "somehow" infuse it with magic and eat it), how complex is cave system(it could have settlements below and above each other in same place, allowing much higher density). At least we know that there is probably neither shortage of water nor energy(geothermal plants are crazy powerful, monsters don't try to conserve water and let it just vent into air, and that wolf that throws ice cubes throws enough of it to satisfy needs of 100k city, for both industrial(cooling water for plant) and household use).
I just tried to use values that seems reasonable to me, and hope that it lands around "true" value(if there is such a thing).
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Well, since it stretches across a horizon without a clear end. Shouldn't it be at least 5 kilometres since there is nothing hampering the player's view.
And to clarify why, it's because all of new home is underground. That means it could very well extend beyond the base of the actual mountain without ever penetrating into the surface anyways.
Qurbonboev
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There are buildings that hamper our views though in distant background. They appear to be 5 time smaller than similar buildings that appear right in front of Frisk, don't know how it can be used for calculating distance. And I am pretty sure that Barrier exists under the mountain too. Otherwise monsters would just dig their way out of the Underground.
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If a barrier existed into underground, the background of new home would not have been white and been the colour of rock and dirt if that's the case.
Qurbonboev
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Could you elaborate. I checked New Home background again, and it's distinctly something brown/dark
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Ack. I apologise, I misremembered the background colour. Yeah, it's brown.
But the point still stands that we've never managed to see what goes beyond the further buildings in white. So I think angsizing the smallest white building in the distance and give it some kind of height to find a radius should be done as the absolute minimum for the city's size.
Ti58
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He already had a human in the show for a long time by now. It doesn't make sense for Mettaton to start with 4000 viewers given the fact that the amount of viewers on his other shows is far smaller.
Qurbonboev
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After bomb section we have several other shows. He could rack up his viewership during them, and in meantime rumours about human in Mettaton show would spread out to entire populace
EnderLord8
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I did some deeper research to find out the extent of New Home and discovered that the images Toby Fox used to create the New Home landscape are 6 layers of background buildings with a layer to represent the buildings on the horizon, https://****************/drive/u/0/folders/1qzrl1ZNyCPronb7u9ttfcCNOmXXD1Vrx
I did some more research to find out the extent of New Home and discovered that the images Toby Fox used to create the New Home landscape have six layers of background buildings, with one layer to represent the buildings on the horizon. https://****************/drive/u/0/folders/1qzrl1ZNyCPronb7u9ttfcCNOmXXD1Vrx
In the deeper background image, it appears that the image contains four other layers of buildings. This could increase the extent of the calculation somewhat. Assuming a semicircle, perhaps you could multiply the area by three or something like that. To create a semicircle in New Home, based on the image you provided in the calculation, you would need about this extent to create a semicircle large enough to encircle the castle.
I did some more research to find out the extent of New Home and discovered that the images Toby Fox used to create the New Home landscape have six layers of background buildings, with one layer to represent the buildings on the horizon. https://****************/drive/u/0/folders/1qzrl1ZNyCPronb7u9ttfcCNOmXXD1Vrx
In the deeper background image, it appears that the image contains four other layers of buildings. This could increase the extent of the calculation somewhat. Assuming a semicircle, perhaps you could multiply the area by three or something like that. To create a semicircle in New Home, based on the image you provided in the calculation, you would need about this extent to create a semicircle large enough to encircle the castle.
Qurbonboev
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Thanks for help. Although it wouldn't increase estimate that mcuh. There are already 15-20 lines of buildings in my lower estimate, and in higher estimate(that I think is reasonable) I assume it extends by roughly same extends.
Were you supposed to give image?
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Why a semi circle?
EnderLord8
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At least that's what I understood from the visual images, although a full circle might be more accurate... Hmmm
Following the pixelation of the image, the part of the upper image that is the other piece of New Home is about 1181 cm or 11.81 meters Width, when we know that in the width 6 buildings of noticeable depth + Several buildings of unknown depth, all of this would not fit in just 12 meters Width
I'm actually still thinking about this, but I think using the measurements we have and making a circle around the castle and then calculating the area from that.
Qurbonboev
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Should have worded it better. By width I meant direction of from down to up. And we can see several lines of buildings, packed in very small length.
Is there view to Asgore castle other than Waterfall one?
And btw, did you contact staff about this CRT?
EnderLord8
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Well, my problem with this is that, based on the size you left at the top of the extension you use to calculate the size of New Home (the top image of New Home), each building would be at most about 1.69 meters wide, assuming only 7 building layers, when we know it goes much further than that, which is a very low value in this regard.
Perhaps at the top of the New Home map using the average size of a building to get a more realistic extension would be better.
Another point I should emphasize is that from the ground, a human's vision range is 5 km, but this range increases the higher the person is. Since Frisk is at a considerable height above the ground, the distance they can see would be longer, but I'm not sure how that would apply in this case.
Yes
No, I haven't thought about doing that. I'm used to seeing team members kind of naturally appear in CTRs, but I imagine it might be necessary to call someone then? But who exactly would be appropriate?
OrangeFR
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I envy you
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If only.
Qurbonboev
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Frisk sees several lines of building, then dark brown rock. I don't see good reason to think it extends that much.
Where else we can see it? Would help to pin down location of castle within New Home.
It's better to wait until we make some sort of a consensus. Then you should message staff members for their opinions and approval
EnderLord8
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Make sense i think...
ok
EnderLord8
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So... Do we agree that A) For the calculation it is necessary to at least use an area that encompasses the castle? And that B) The extension of the buildings goes even further than the current proposed area?
Qurbonboev
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Looking at Waterfall view, it seems logical to assume that city encompasses Castle. Updated calc with new arguments. Now lower limit is 0.055km^2, but I can easily see arguments for it being up to 0.2 km^2. Main arguments for higher area area:
Castle is probably located in the center.
Noze nuzzling tournament would probably be placed not on the edge of the city(as it currently is with lower limit) but closer to center than not.
Estimating Underground Population
vsbattles.fandom.com
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Lilybitdun
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you should include scans of the mettaton rating justifications in the blog
EnderLord8
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Okay, I think we have a calculation, so we can move on now...
The questions we need to resolve:
1 - Which proposal will we choose to get the new underground population?
2 - Change the values of characters 9-A to the new calculation.
3 - A Mettaton calculation??? (I have no idea what this would change since they didn't answer me.)
4 - Use the proposal for the new Underground population to recalculate the new AP value for tier 7
Is there anything else I'm missing?
The questions we need to resolve:
1 - Which proposal will we choose to get the new underground population?
2 - Change the values of characters 9-A to the new calculation.
3 - A Mettaton calculation??? (I have no idea what this would change since they didn't answer me.)
4 - Use the proposal for the new Underground population to recalculate the new AP value for tier 7
Is there anything else I'm missing?
Qurbonboev
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There is new CRT being cooked that will include new method of scaling character stats. It would tackle these new feats.
I would try to bring attention of Calc group members to calc. Maybe you should try to call willing staff members?
For me personally, I prefer F,G and H. Proposal E has similar numbers to my personal estimate, but I don't think it's good idea to base off New Home population on medieval town values, since it's clearly not medieval city(it has modern technologies, like electricity and social media, and modern technologies allows for much more populous and denser cities overall).
EnderLord8
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Okay, so I guess this part can wait for now.
Alright, I'll see about calling a moderator.
Qurbonboev
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It would be made 15.10(after a week).
So we can safely wait till it to make conclusions.
Yes, we would need some guidance in our case. On one hand it's estimates at best. On other hand it will affect scaling of only two characters directly(Asriel key after absorbing Chara, and Frisk at immense determination)
EnderLord8
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ok
Well, the profiles that would have an AP increase would be:
1-Frisk
2-Humans Souls
3-Asriel
4-Underground
5-Humanity
Chara doesn't have a 7-C key
EnderLord8
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I remembered something that might be worth discussing in this CTR that wasn't talked about much in the topic, but that might be interesting to include: In the game there's a scene where Frisk runs through Muffet's web and that's a LS talent, when I brought it to the general topic @StrymULTRA did a rough calculation that resulted in a class M talent, do you think it's interesting to bring this to the CTR as well?
He based the calculation on this calculation blog.
But also has this blog
Thoughts?
He based the calculation on this calculation blog.
But also has this blog
Thoughts?
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I think that first it should be talked and accepted 1st the amount of population, and then talk later about the amount of people in.
I still stick with 10 or 50k as these rely on far less assumptions and are a way safer metric, anything more is just a stretch.
I still stick with 10 or 50k as these rely on far less assumptions and are a way safer metric, anything more is just a stretch.
Qurbonboev
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Sadly, it seems that Mr. Bambu (can't call him, due to rules) think both two my method of estimating population are too unreliable, and assumes too many unverifiable assumptions. I don't think there are other methods of estimating population, that are more reliable.
I personally think now that 10k is reasonable minimum, given our lack of information, and that minimum of information we have pointing out to bigger numbers(overcrowded "large city", university in Hotland, hospitals and schools). Maybe if Toby dropped in the future some more information we could get more accurate value, but not now.
