Underground population Upgrade... And maybe more

[EnderLord8]

Underground Population CRT:
We currently consider the Underground population to be 2000 coming from this source.

But we now have enough evidence to consider a larger population.

We know that New Home is a huge city that we can't even see the limit from our perspective in the game with at least hundreds of multi-story buildings whose end is not visible even on the horizon, and New Home is stated to suffer from overpopulation

So we know that New Home is a huge city of undetermined size that suffers from overpopulation, what can we take from this? Well, from Wikipedia we have:

A) City - The population is less than one million but more than a quarter of a million people. (250,000 to 1,000,000)
B) Metropolis - A population usually reaching one million or more people. (+1,000,000)
C) Megacity - contains more than ten million residents in total and is often a conurbation or metropolis grown into a continuous urban area. (+10,000,000)

Another observation is that half of the Underground's population currently lives in New Home, meaning that the Underground's population is twice the population of New Home.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Proposal A - We consider the minimum amount for a population to be considered a city and use the value of 250,000 for the population of New Home and 500,000 for the population of Underground.
Evidence: Basically everything that was explained
Votes: 4 (@Anonymous_Learner, @Axorandom0, @Comiphorous, @AyOgUyS)

Proposal B - We use the average value between 250,000 and 1,000,000 which is 625,000, which would make the total population of the Underground 1,250,000
Evidence: It is mentioned multiple times that New Home is a huge/large/enormous city making New Home well above average for other cities which would make the value of 625,000 a viable average.
Votes: 2 (@Axorandom0, @TheOrangeGuy09)

Proposal C - We consider New Home to have a Metropolis population of over 1,000,000, which would make the Underground population 2,000,000.
Evidence: New Home is a capital city that despite being so large suffers from overpopulation, being the center of the Underground and having so many tall buildings, considering it a Metropolis is not inaccurate, so considering its population to be over 1,000,000 is reasonable;
Votes: 3 (@Axorandom0, @TheOrangeGuy09, @Greatsage13th)

Proposal D - We consider New Home to be a Megacity with 10,000,000 inhabitants, making the entire Underground a nation with 20,000,000 inhabitants.
Evidence: New Home is huge and has some features of a Megacity (A weak suggestion, but leaving it here to see if anyone is able to point out more evidence for this proposal)
Votes: 1 (@Anonymous_Learner)

Proposal E - Early medieval cities seem to have a population of 8,000~25,000, as New Home is considered a large town we can use 8,000 or the average of both values 16,500, this would make the total population of the Underground go to 16,000~33,000 inhabitants
Evidence: Monsterkind was imprisoned during medieval times, so considering New Home's population to be the standard for a medieval city would be reasonable.
Note: Population figures are unreliable, I have not yet found a concrete source for these numbers.

Proposal F - We tried to calculate the size of New Home based on the images we have and then applied the high population density to arrive at an acceptable population.
Note: There is no calculation yet and if we go through this method it will be necessary to perform the calculation and wait for it to be approved.
Votes: 4 (@Arceus0x, @Greatsage13th, @OrangeFR, @Qurbonboev)

Proposal G - At @StrymULTRA suggestion we used the minimum value to be considered a city of 10,000 which would make the total population of the Underground 20,000
Evidence: This is the absolute minimum possible value
Votes: 3 (@AyOgUyS, @OrangeFR, @Qurbonboev)

Proposal H - Also at @StrymULTRA suggestion, we considered a population of 50,000, making the Underground have 100,000 inhabitants...
Evidence: The same source, but it is a minimum population required to be a main city of a region
Votes: 3 (@Greatsage13th, @OrangeFR, @Qurbonboev)

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Bônus:
This update directly affects the power of a Human soul, so logically it would affect the calculation to reach the power of 1 human soul. I currently have a calculation that already takes into account these new proposals and already considers a new value for the power of the Human soul.

And we currently have a new approved 9-A calculation that would increase the current 9-As that scale from a value of 0.008803 Tons of TNT to 0.102500084 Tons of TNT, so all characters that scale to 9-A must have the values they scale to increased, this also affects the recalculation of the human soul power, but to a lesser extent

Leaving the Bonus part to see if we will apply the new values from the new calculations in this CRT or if another one will be opened later and this will be resolved there...

 

[Anonymous_Learner]

I think the high ball works fine by me but the low end 500k end works for me too.
Let's see where this goes

 

[Axorandom0]

A / B seem the best to me though C could also work.

 

[TheOrangeGuy09]

B to C are fine by me

 

[Greatsage13th]

C

 

[Qurbonboev]

Proposal A - We consider the minimum amount for a population to be considered a city and use the value of 250,000 for the population of New Home and 500,000 for the population of Underground.

How big to you think Underground(and Mount Ebott) is? There is map of entirety of it(here). And even using pretty generous assumptions, it's area(everything inside red curves) is 3-4 km^2. Underground in it totality would have population density of around 150k people(?)/km^2, much higher than even densest urban centers(40-50k per km^2). NYC has density of 10k per km^2, to give example.

 

[Qurbonboev]

It didn't load properly first time

 

[Qurbonboev]

But we now have enough evidence to consider a larger population.

We do have rough limits of New Home, we see how dense can 2 story buildings can be packed. Roughly 1000 of them can fit inside (shown) limits of city. Assuming 10 monsters per such building, city pop is 10k. On one hand City is bigger than shown limits, and has buildings with more storeys. On the other hand, not everywhere is packed so densely(as shown in anniversary stream), and you need place for jobs, recreation, schools, hospital. And don't forget 12k Mettaton rating(which I believe to be somewhat useful gauge of overall population.
City inside shown limits has area of 0.025 km^2. Urban center with with highest population density is Mong Kok, with 130k per km^2. With such density it would reach only 4k. New City is probably bigger than that though(both by size and population)
My current proposal is simple: Based on current evidence, New Home population is around 10-15k, total underground is 20-30k.

 

[Comiphorous]

I think if supporters and mods are fine with any of these options, A would be the safest due to the vagueness.

 

[StrymULTRA]

Literally all of these are just plain wrong lol. Gotta get here later because they're all massive high balls.

 

[Qurbonboev]

Leaving the Bonus part to see if we will apply the new values from the new calculations in this CRT or if another one will be opened later and this will be resolved there...

It would be better to resolve it here.

Literally all of these are just plain wrong lol. Gotta get here later because they're all massive high balls.

Agree with Strym. Wikipedia numbers are just example to illustrate hierarchy of settlements. There is no good reason to think that they should apply to Underground. Minimum requirement of 250,000 people for being a city is just arbitrary number in Wikipedia, different countries and regions have different requirements for it. For example, New Hampshire (state of Toby Fox) officially doesn't have any strict population requirements for transforming town into a city. And it has cities with population as low as 8k(Franklin).

 

[Greatsage13th]

Literally all of these are just plain wrong lol. Gotta get here later because they're all massive high balls.

We can just estimate it the old fashioned way via calculations if it is an unreliable highball. Aside from that, even a century of time can lead to sufficiently exponential growth that can add a one or more digits to the underground population, but I do agree that some numbers do seem overinflated.

 

[Greatsage13th]

Agree with Strym. Wikipedia numbers are just example to illustrate hierarchy of settlements. There is no good reason to think that they should apply to Underground. Minimum requirement of 250,000 people for being a city is just arbitrary number in Wikipedia, different countries and regions have different requirements for it.

Agreed.

For example, New Hampshire (state of Toby Fox) officially doesn't have any strict population requirements for transforming town into a city. And it has cities with population as low as 8k(Franklin).

Difference is, that one is not overpopulated. I think its better to take a population density of a truly overpopulated city and just ram it in with New Home's area to get a number at this point.

 

[Qurbonboev]

Difference is, that one is not overpopulated. I think its better to take a population density of a truly overpopulated city and just ram it in with New Home's area to get a number at this point.

I already did it. Very rough method:

We do have rough limits of New Home, we see how dense can 2 story buildings can be packed. Roughly 1000 of them can fit inside (shown) limits of city. Assuming 10 monsters per such building, city pop is 10k. On one hand City is bigger than shown limits, and has buildings with more storeys. On the other hand, not everywhere is packed so densely(as shown in anniversary stream), and you need place for jobs, recreation, schools, hospital. And don't forget 12k Mettaton rating(which I believe to be somewhat useful gauge of overall population).
City inside shown limits has area of 0.025 km^2. Urban center with with highest population density is Mong Kok, with 130k per km^2. With such density it would reach only 4k. New City is probably bigger than that though(both by size and population)
My current proposal is simple: Based on current evidence, New Home population is around 10-15k, total underground is 20-30k.

Btw, searching Mettaton rating and OP mentioned one time that max rating of show is 15559.

UNDERTALE/DELTARUNE [shiny new] DISCUSSION THEAD

Okay, I have a question: why don't we use the TV rating from the Battle of Mettaton to calculate the Underground's population? Wouldn't that be around 12,000?

vsbattles.com

There were arguments against using Mettaton rating, but they seem weak, even more when we have independent arguments to back up 10k+ population

 

[Greatsage13th]

Neat

 

[StrymULTRA]

We know that New Home is a huge city that we can't even see the limit from our perspective in the game with at least hundreds of multi-story buildings whose end is not visible even on the horizon, and New Home is stated to suffer from overpopulation

So we know that New Home is a huge city of undetermined size that suffers from overpopulation, what can we take from this? Well, from Wikipedia we have:

A) City - The population is less than one million but more than a quarter of a million people. (250,000 to 1,000,000)
B) Metropolis - A population usually reaching one million or more people. (+1,000,000)
C) Megacity - contains more than ten million residents in total and is often a conurbation or metropolis grown into a continuous urban area. (+10,000,000)

The problem is that 250k is not necessary to hit this, as the bare minimum to classify for a Principal City (aka the largest one within a population) is 10'000 inhabitants, and according to MSA, NCES and World Bank have them of at least 50'000.

Or 100'000 if you consider these to be just half of the whole population.

250'000 for New Home is waaaay too big.

Leaving the Bonus part to see if we will apply the new values from the new calculations in this CRT or if another one will be opened later and this will be resolved there...

There is also a recalc of the Mettaton feat which would make the scaling more nuanced, and was part of the revisions that were in the planning from quite a bit of time.

 

[Qurbonboev]

There is also a recalc of the Mettaton feat which would make the scaling more nuanced, and was part of the revisions that were in the planning from quite a bit of time.

Is it accepted? Can you link it?

 

[StrymULTRA]

Re-reading the above, the links give also some specifics on what is needed to even hit these numbers (NCES requires to be part of a Principal City of 250'000 inhabitants, something the Underground obviously does not), and MSA is only for Metropolitan Cities, so I'd say to just use 10k for New Home.

Plus, y'all forget that the Underground is literally inside a mountain, and I really doubt that Mount Ebott is gonna be more than few kms in width for its base.

I also disagree immensely with using Mettaton's ratings as a way to measure the population, as they're simple, yk, rankings given based on the audience's opinion on the show which can increase or decrease depending on how entertaining it is, it's not an indicator of individual votes at all.

Is it accepted? Can you link it?

https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/User_blog:Thebadtimetrio32/Undertale:_Mettaton_Kick_recalc

Yeah it is. Just that the CRT to implement it is also in the works (alongside a UES, other re-scaling stuff and fixing various ****-ups that happened in the years).

 

[Greatsage13th]

Plus, y'all forget that the Underground is literally inside a mountain, and I really doubt that Mount Ebott is gonna be more than few kms in width for its base.

Is it possible to calc the size of it?

 

[StrymULTRA]

Is it possible to calc the size of it?

An extremely rough (but still mostly inaccurate) estimate can be by scaling one of the green dots as a tree from the colored image, but I feel it'd be too low.

But it's going to be useless anyway as nothing really benefits from it.

 

[Qurbonboev]

Plus, y'all forget that the Underground is literally inside a mountain, and I really doubt that Mount Ebott is gonna be more than few kms in width for its base.

Max length of Underground we see is around 3.6km(from where we fall to where we exit it).

I also disagree immensely with using Mettaton's ratings as a way to measure the population, as they're simple, yk, rankings given based on the audience's opinion on the show which can increase or decrease depending on how entertaining it is, it's not an indicator of individual votes at all.

Not always. TV show ratings also have meaning of "total audience of show" or "number of people that watched show episode in particular day". Show popularity is first and foremost measure of how many people watch it. And agencies do survey household size to make more accurate estimate of show popularity. 12k rating doesn't make such sense in context "show rating as measure of audience opinion of show"(you would use something like 10 scale), but seems to fit right into "show rating as number of viewers". And after finishing the fight he directly says:
OOH, LOOK AT THESE RATINGS!!!
THIS IS THE MOST VIEWERS I'VE EVER HAD!!!

 

[Greatsage13th]

An extremely rough (but still mostly inaccurate) estimate can be by scaling one of the green dots as a tree from the colored image, but I feel it'd be too low.

But it's going to be useless anyway as nothing really benefits from it.

Yep, you were right about that. There just wasn't enough pixels to get a value significantly more than 3.6 km.

 

[EnderLord8]

It seems like there have been some walls of text for me to read... Let me read then...

 

[EnderLord8]

How big to you think Underground(and Mount Ebott) is? There is map of entirety of it(here). And even using pretty generous assumptions, it's area(everything inside red curves) is 3-4 km^2. Underground in it totality would have population density of around 150k people(?)/km^2, much higher than even densest urban centers(40-50k per km^2). NYC has density of 10k per km^2, to give example.

Well, this argument is not exactly very solid when we know that the underground is much larger than what we explored, we know that there is the city in the Ruins, an entire forest in Snowdin, in the waterfall we have an underwater town and there we can also see Asgore's castle on the horizon, in Hotland we can see the Core which is equally large and finally New Home in which we are unable to see its entire size, so this density per Km^2 would not be exactly accurate.

 

[EnderLord8]

We do have rough limits of New Home, we see how dense can 2 story buildings can be packed. Roughly 1000 of them can fit inside (shown) limits of city. Assuming 10 monsters per such building, city pop is 10k. On one hand City is bigger than shown limits, and has buildings with more storeys. On the other hand, not everywhere is packed so densely(as shown in anniversary stream), and you need place for jobs, recreation, schools, hospital. And don't forget 12k Mettaton rating(which I believe to be somewhat useful gauge of overall population.
City inside shown limits has area of 0.025 km^2. Urban center with with highest population density is Mong Kok, with 130k per km^2. With such density it would reach only 4k. New City is probably bigger than that though(both by size and population)
My current proposal is simple: Based on current evidence, New Home population is around 10-15k, total underground is 20-30k.

Where did you get the value of 0.025Km^2? Was it a calculation you made? If so, showing the reasoning behind the calculation would be something that could support what you say.

Either way, finding the total area of the city that we can see and applying a minimum value for high density is a reasonable proposal to consider.

 

[EnderLord8]

It would be better to resolve it here.

ok

Agree with Strym. Wikipedia numbers are just example to illustrate hierarchy of settlements. There is no good reason to think that they should apply to Underground.

There are alternatives, I used Wikipedia as a base because it was the most reliable source I found, if it has a value that serves as an alternative it would serve

In the Undertale/Deltarune discussion thread I had also considered using population models of medieval cities, I can add these models to the proposals

Minimum requirement of 250,000 people for being a city is just arbitrary number in Wikipedia, different countries and regions have different requirements for it. For example, New Hampshire (state of Toby Fox) officially doesn't have any strict population requirements for transforming town into a city. And it has cities with population as low as 8k(Franklin).

I don't think using the state Toby lives in is appropriate for this reason, a more generic value used for the whole world is better to define the population than any value of the state Toby Fox lives in.

 

[EnderLord8]

Difference is, that one is not overpopulated. I think its better to take a population density of a truly overpopulated city and just ram it in with New Home's area to get a number at this point.

Good enough to add as a proposal to this CTR

 

[EnderLord8]

The problem is that 250k is not necessary to hit this, as the bare minimum to classify for a Principal City (aka the largest one within a population) is 10'000 inhabitants, and according to MSA, NCES and World Bank have them of at least 50'000.

Or 100'000 if you consider these to be just half of the whole population.

250'000 for New Home is waaaay too big.

This source is cool, I will add the proposals for the population

There is also a recalc of the Mettaton feat which would make the scaling more nuanced, and was part of the revisions that were in the planning from quite a bit of time.

Well, I didn't know that, if you want to share it here to add to the OP, feel free.

 

[EnderLord8]

Re-reading the above, the links give also some specifics on what is needed to even hit these numbers (NCES requires to be part of a Principal City of 250'000 inhabitants, something the Underground obviously does not), and MSA is only for Metropolitan Cities, so I'd say to just use 10k for New Home.

Arguably, the font size of New Home doesn't just come from what's presented by the monsters, so using 50,000 is still a good proposition.

Plus, y'all forget that the Underground is literally inside a mountain, and I really doubt that Mount Ebott is gonna be more than few kms in width for its base.

I thought about this point and I don't think it's a good argument, considering that the empty spaces we see during the game exceed the size of an average mountain, but if you want to continue with this argument we can analyze what we have from the game to conclude the size of the empty space inside the mountain and see if it's possible for a mountain to be that big.

https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/User_blog:Thebadtimetrio32/Undertale:_Mettaton_Kick_recalc

Yeah it is. Just that the CRT to implement it is also in the works (alongside a UES, other re-scaling stuff and fixing various ****-ups that happened in the years).

Who exactly would this value scale to?

 

[Qurbonboev]

Well, this argument is not exactly very solid when we know that the underground is much larger than what we explored, we know that there is the city in the Ruins, an entire forest in Snowdin, in the waterfall we have an underwater town and there we can also see Asgore's castle on the horizon, in Hotland we can see the Core which is equally large and finally New Home in which we are unable to see its entire size, so this density per Km^2 would not be exactly accurate.

Everything inside red lines here would constitute 3-4 square kilometers. Everything new can easily fit inside these limits.

 

[EnderLord8]

Max length of Underground we see is around 3.6km(from where we fall to where we exit it).

You disregard that Frisk during their journey ascended and descended several times to unknown heights which would make the maximum size you indicated inaccurate.

 

[EnderLord8]

Everything inside red lines here would constitute 3-4 square kilometers. Everything new can easily fit inside these limits.

I can't see the image

Anyway, I'm going to go out for a bit, when everything has been answered I'll add the new proposals

 

[Qurbonboev]

I can't see the image

Anyway, I'm going to go out for a bit, when everything has been answered I'll add the new proposals

Really? Going to fix it

 

[Qurbonboev]

I can't see the image

Everything inside red lines in the big map is around 3-4 km^2. Everything new can easily fit inside it.

Size

Discover the magic of the internet at Imgur, a community powered entertainment destination. Lift your spirits with funny jokes, trending memes, entertaining gifs, inspiring stories, viral videos, and so much more from users like PowerUser1905.

imgur.com

 

[Qurbonboev]

I can't see the image

Everything inside red lines can be safely considered part of New Home. It probably it 3-4 times bigger, so 0.1 km^2 would be reasonable compromise. Combined with population density of Mong Gok(densest urban center, 130k per km^2), it gets us 13000k for New Home, and 26k Underground.

New Home

Discover the magic of the internet at Imgur, a community powered entertainment destination. Lift your spirits with funny jokes, trending memes, entertaining gifs, inspiring stories, viral videos, and so much more from users like PowerUser1905.

imgur.com

 

[TheOrangeGuy09]

You two, just reply to each other in one post instead of post-spamming.

 

[EnderLord8]

Underground Population CRT:
We currently consider the Underground population to be 2000 coming from this source.

But we now have enough evidence to consider a larger population.

We know that New Home is a huge city that we can't even see the limit from our perspective in the game with at least hundreds of multi-story buildings whose end is not visible even on the horizon, and New Home is stated to suffer from overpopulation

So we know that New Home is a huge city of undetermined size that suffers from overpopulation, what can we take from this? Well, from Wikipedia we have:

A) City - The population is less than one million but more than a quarter of a million people. (250,000 to 1,000,000)
B) Metropolis - A population usually reaching one million or more people. (+1,000,000)
C) Megacity - contains more than ten million residents in total and is often a conurbation or metropolis grown into a continuous urban area. (+10,000,000)

Another observation is that half of the Underground's population currently lives in New Home, meaning that the Underground's population is twice the population of New Home.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Proposal A - We consider the minimum amount for a population to be considered a city and use the value of 250,000 for the population of New Home and 500,000 for the population of Underground.
Evidence: Basically everything that was explained
Votes: 3 (@Anonymous_Learner, @Axorandom0, @Comiphorous)

Proposal B - We use the average value between 250,000 and 1,000,000 which is 625,000, which would make the total population of the Underground 1,250,000
Evidence: It is mentioned multiple times that New Home is a huge/large/enormous city making New Home well above average for other cities which would make the value of 625,000 a viable average.
Votes: 2 (@Axorandom0, @TheOrangeGuy09)

Proposal C - We consider New Home to have a Metropolis population of over 1,000,000, which would make the Underground population 2,000,000.
Evidence: New Home is a capital city that despite being so large suffers from overpopulation, being the center of the Underground and having so many tall buildings, considering it a Metropolis is not inaccurate, so considering its population to be over 1,000,000 is reasonable;
Votes: 3 (@Axorandom0, @TheOrangeGuy09, @Greatsage13th)

Proposal D - We consider New Home to be a Megacity with 10,000,000 inhabitants, making the entire Underground a nation with 20,000,000 inhabitants.
Evidence: New Home is huge and has some features of a Megacity (A weak suggestion, but leaving it here to see if anyone is able to point out more evidence for this proposal)
Votes: 1 (@Anonymous_Learner)

Proposal E - Early medieval cities seem to have a population of 8,000~25,000, as New Home is considered a large town we can use 8,000 or the average of both values 16,500, this would make the total population of the Underground go to 16,000~33,000 inhabitants
Evidence: Monsterkind was imprisoned during medieval times, so considering New Home's population to be the standard for a medieval city would be reasonable.
Note: Population figures are unreliable, I have not yet found a concrete source for these numbers.

Proposal F - We tried to calculate the size of New Home based on the images we have and then applied the high population density to arrive at an acceptable population.
Note: There is no calculation yet and if we go through this method it will be necessary to perform the calculation and wait for it to be approved.

Proposal G - At @StrymULTRA suggestion we used the minimum value to be considered a city of 10,000 which would make the total population of the Underground 20,000
Evidence: This is the absolute minimum possible value

Proposal H - Also at @StrymULTRA suggestion, we considered a population of 50,000, making the Underground have 100,000 inhabitants...
Evidence: The same source, but it is a minimum population required to be a main city of a region

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Bônus:
This update directly affects the power of a Human soul, so logically it would affect the calculation to reach the power of 1 human soul. I currently have a calculation that already takes into account these new proposals and already considers a new value for the power of the Human soul.

And we currently have a new approved 9-A calculation that would increase the current 9-As that scale from a value of 0.008803 Tons of TNT to 0.102500084 Tons of TNT, so all characters that scale to 9-A must have the values they scale to increased, this also affects the recalculation of the human soul power, but to a lesser extent

Leaving the Bonus part to see if we will apply the new values from the new calculations in this CRT or if another one will be opened later and this will be resolved there...

OP updated with new suggestions

You two, just reply to each other in one post instead of post-spamming.

sorry

 

[Arceus0x]

For now let's maybe try n calc it

 

[AyOgUyS]

G and A are fine to me

 

[Greatsage13th]

F and H