Uncontroversial Goku CRT (hopefully)

[BOEGVELD]

Hello everyone, this is just about some abilities additions for Goku. It should be a fairly simple and quick CRT. ​

Son Goku (DBS Manga): Non-Physical Interaction (Fought with Frieza when he was a soul)

Son Goku (Dragon Ball Z, DBS Manga): Astral Projection (Goku's spirit appeared behind Gohan and gave him power)
His Range should also be updated to: Interdimensional or Low Multiversal with Ki-based attacks and Astral Projection.

Son Goku (Dragon Ball, Dragon Ball Z, DBS Manga): Regeneration (Low; regenerated from bumps, bruises and black eyes very quickly numerous times)

Son Goku (DBS Manga): Cosmic Awareness (Can sense energy throughout the universe, and visualize events)

Son Goku (DBS Manga): Limited Sound Manipulation (Greatly amplified his voice to talk to someone in a spaceship high in the sky)

Son Goku (DBS Manga): Limited Fear Manipulation or Social Influencing (Instilled fear in Moro with his presence alone)
Note: Moro could not sense this type of God Ki.

 

[Killerdrone123]

Son Goku (DBS Manga): Void Manipulation (Goku and Vegeta's Ki blast changed the entirety of the void in the World of Void)

Just pointing this out It is already listed under ki manipulation for dbs manga as it is a ki feat

 

[BOEGVELD]

Just pointing this out It is already listed under ki manipulation for dbs manga as it is a ki feat

Thanks, didn't know that. I'll remove it.

 

[Nullflowerblush]

Son Goku (DBS Manga): Non-Physical Interaction (Fought with Frieza when he was a soul)

Souls are will-o'-wisps. Evidently, Frieza retained his original physical form in Earth's Hell.

Son Goku (Dragon Ball Z, DBS Manga): Astral Projection (Goku's spirit appeared behind Gohan and gave him power)

Goku is encouraging Gohan via Telepathy.

Son Goku (DBS Manga): Cosmic Awareness (Can sense energy throughout the universe, and visualize events)

Eh.

Goku can only visualize ongoing events via Ki Sensing, rather than being acutely aware of the ongoings of the cosmos. Less Cosmic Awareness, more Clairvoyance.

Son Goku (DBS Manga): Limited Sound Manipulation (Greatly amplified his voice to talk to someone in a spaceship high in the sky)

No evidence.

Son Goku (DBS Manga): Limited Fear Manipulation or Social Influencing (Instilled fear in Moro with his presence alone)
Note: Moro could not sense this type of God Ki.

Social Influencing.

 

[GarrixianXD]

Just pointing this out It is already listed under ki manipulation for dbs manga as it is a ki feat

No way that was accepted…

Neutral for now, going to wait for arguments.

 

[BOEGVELD]

Evidently, Frieza retained his original physical form in Earth's Hell.

Stated where exactly?

Goku is encouraging Gohan via Telepathy.

This is an entirely different moment.

Goku can only visualize ongoing events via Ki Sensing, rather than being aware of the ongoings of the cosmos. Less Cosmic Awareness, more Clairvoyance.

Fair. Just saw that this is already listed as Clairvoyance on the Ki Manipulation page as well.

No evidence.

There are visual effects and normal shouts do not reach that far up in the sky.

 

[StekFence]

What if gokus just loud

 

[Robo432343]

Where is the scan of Goku fighting frieza as a soul

 

[SamanPatou]

Son Goku (DBS Manga): Non-Physical Interaction (Fought with Frieza when he was a soul)

I believe here Frieza was supposed to be somewhat physical, like as if he had maintained his body like Goku did. After all, Frieza is taken back to the living world just as he is, so if he were immaterial he should have been such until the moment he was brought back to life,

Son Goku (Dragon Ball Z, DBS Manga): Astral Projection (Goku's spirit appeared behind Gohan and gave him power)

Goku's appearance seems more figurative than else, as in giving the spectator an idea and not his actually appearing as a hologram. The part about giving him power refers to Goku motivating Gohan to push himself beyond, rather than an actual trnasfering of energy.

Son Goku (Dragon Ball, Dragon Ball Z, DBS Manga): Regeneration (Low; regenerated from bumps, bruises and black eyes very quickly numerous times)

Half of these are gags and the rest is just graphical compromises to not always draw the same pointless bruises. This also goes against one of our policies for regeneration:
Instances of characters being wounded and inexplicably recovering off-screen should not be taken as evidence of regeneration unless supported by further context. This is due to reasons ranging from the possibility of off-screen treatment to continuity errors. See this thread for reference

Son Goku (DBS Manga): Cosmic Awareness (Can sense energy throughout the universe, and visualize events)

The first is just further demonstration of his ESP, he still needs to lock on ki signatures, it's range feat at most. The latter works for clairvoyance.

Son Goku (DBS Manga): Limited Sound Manipulation (Greatly amplified his voice to talk to someone in a spaceship high in the sky)

Meh, this just looks like an imprecision to me, like that part in AoT where he commander speaks to his soldiers from a 50 meters tall wall and they can hear him just fine at ground level.

Son Goku (DBS Manga): Limited Fear Manipulation or Social Influencing (Instilled fear in Moro with his presence alone)
Note: Moro could not sense this type of God Ki.

I can see SI for the eerie aura of stillness and Moro's instinctive reaction, but Fear manipulation is a whole different matter,

 

[Nierre]

Heavy disagree with the regeneration FRA

 

[BOEGVELD]

I believe here Frieza was supposed to be somewhat physical, like as if he had maintained his body like Goku did. After all, Frieza is taken back to the living world just as he is, so if he were immaterial he should have been such until the moment he was brought back to life,

He was temporarily revived by Uranai Baba. She's done this multiple times, too. And even in the original manga is it stated that evil being lose their physical form.

Goku's appearance seems more figurative than else, as in giving the spectator an idea and not his actually appearing as a hologram. The part about giving him power refers to Goku motivating Gohan to push himself beyond, rather than an actual trnasfering of energy.

''Goku's spirit gives the last of his power to Gohan.'' It doesn't simply say Goku's giving Gohan power, but his power. And ''produced from the power of Gohan's anger and the power of Goku'' and ''borrowing power from Goku'' do not imply anything motivational, either.

Half of these are gags and the rest is just graphical compromises to not always draw the same pointless bruises. This also goes against one of our policies for regeneration:
Instances of characters being wounded and inexplicably recovering off-screen should not be taken as evidence of regeneration unless supported by further context. This is due to reasons ranging from the possibility of off-screen treatment to continuity errors. See this thread for reference

There's difference between the consistency of the placement of bruises and them completely dissapearing. In other battles, the bruises will simply remain, even if their placement isn't always super consistent, but in these examples the bruises simply dissapeared.

Meh, this just looks like an imprecision to me, like that part in AoT where he commander speaks to his soldiers from a 50 meters tall wall and they can hear him just fine at ground level.

This seems a lot farther than 50 meters though. Plus there being visual effects as well. But I understand the disagreement.

The first is just further demonstration of his ESP, he still needs to lock on ki signatures, it's range feat at most. The latter works for clairvoyance.

I can see SI for the eerie aura of stillness and Moro's instinctive reaction, but Fear manipulation is a whole different matter,

Fair. SI does seem more reasonable, yes.

 

[BOEGVELD]

Where is the scan of Goku fighting frieza as a soul

The fight itself was off-screen.

 

[Ednaxel2]

I agree with Social Influencing and Regeneration looks fine

I disagree with everything else FRA

 

[Nullflowerblush]

Stated where exactly?

"Evidently", as in, Frieza was portrayed in his physical form every time he was depicted in Earth's Hell, rather than in the form of the will-o'-wisps like souls without bodies are illustrated throughout the franchise. Even in the Super series, ghost characters like Dr. Mashirito are intangible will-o'-wisps, rather than possessing physical forms. That, and based on how the scene was adapted in the Super anime, we can reasonably assume Baba brought Frieza back before they battled.

This is an entirely different moment.

This is the exact same scene.

There are visual effects and normal shouts do not reach that far up in the sky.

The visual effects in question illustrate the location of the spaceship, not the trajectory of Goku's supposed amplified vocal waves. And, as for "normal shouts" not traveling that far, remember that in Super, Goku and Jiren can battle at such high speeds that they appear completely invisible to the naked eye, but the sounds of their clashes are heard in real time.

It doesn't simply say Goku's giving Gohan power, but his power.

Gohan borrowing power from Gohan has been contradicted and disproven in numerous previous threads.

 

[Hasty12345]

Never use the words “uncontroversial” and “Goku” in the title of your CRT.

 

[BOEGVELD]

"Evidently", as in, Frieza was portrayed in his physical form every time he was depicted in Earth's Hell, rather than in the form of the will-o'-wisps like souls without bodies are illustrated throughout the franchise. Even in the Super series, ghost characters like Dr. Mashirito are intangible will-o'-wisps, rather than possessing physical forms. That, and based on how the scene was adapted in the Super anime, we can reasonably assume Baba brought Frieza back before they battled.

The Daizenshuu already confirmed that souls can keep the form they had during life. And Goku, in the original manga, Goku also confirmed regular and evil people turn into spirits. Your argument is based on personal belief and goes against everything we're told within the series.

The DBS anime has no relevancy in this discussion, but, even then, Frieza was only revived after he agreed to participate.

This is the exact same scene.

Gohan borrowing power from Gohan has been contradicted and disproven in numerous previous threads.

It is not the same scene. And what are these supposed contradictions and debunks? Because it's a pretty straightforward scene.

 

[Eseseso]

Looks fine.

 

[Nullflowerblush]

The DBS anime has no relevancy in this discussion, but, even then, Frieza was only revived after he agreed to participate.

Firstly, the Super anime and Super manga accepted as narrative and cosmological parallels on the Wiki, given they are adapted from the same plot outlines.
Secondly, I was misremembering the events of Episode 93 and 94. I was vindicated, though; Frieza, evidently, retained his body in Hell.

Had Frieza been a spirit, he would have looked like Dr. Mashirito, a spirit who escaped from Hell.

It is not the same scene. And what are these supposed contradictions and debunks?

Immediately after Gohan is initially contacted by Goku, he and Cell engage in a power struggle.
Throughout the struggle, Goku is communicating with Gohan through King Kai.

Because it's a pretty straightforward scene.

• "Hang on, Gohan!!! Hang on!!! You haven't used all your power yet!!! Let it rip!!!"
  • "Hang on! Hang on, Gohan! You ain’t putting out all your power yet! Make your power explode!"
• "You're holding back!! Trying not to destroy the planet!!! Let go!!! The Dragon Balls can fix it!!!"
  • "Somewhere in your mind you’re thinking of the damage to the Earth! Don’t worry about it! We’ll undo the damage with the dragonballs!"
• "…a heartbroken Gohan is encouraged by Goku in the afterlife, and in his Kamehameha struggle with Cell he puts forth his strongest power."
• "It looked like Gohan was being pushed back by the Kamehameha that Cell fired, but with Goku's advice he unleashes all his ki in one burst!"
• "Gohan injured his arm protecting Vegeta, but with Goku's encouragement he defeats Cell!"
• "During the battle with Cell, he won with a Kamehameha that had all his might behind it."
• "As the Kamehameha clashes with each other, Gohan exerts his last ounce of strength and hits Cell with his largest Kamehameha!"
• "Goku's encouragement, which had saved Gohan's life, now pushes Gohan to unleash a one-armed Kamehameha! Goku's feelings for Gohan propel him forward!"
• "Just as despair overtakes the earth, Goku's voice inspires Gohan from the heavens! Against the backdrop of his father's wish, the fateful Kamehameha is unleashed!"

Straightforward, yes, yes. And, consistent with Gohan's character arc; i.e., learning to realize and draw out his full power despite his passive nature.

 

[BOEGVELD]

Firstly, the Super anime and Super manga accepted as narrative and cosmological parallels on the Wiki

Firstly, this has nothing to do with the narrative of the series. Secondly, we do NOT see Frieza during their fight. We do not know what he looked like at the time. But, regardless, using an anime character that does not appear in the DB nor DBS manga as a basis for what Frieza should look like is fallacious at best.

Straightforward, yes, yes. And, consistent with Gohan's character arc; i.e., learning to realize and draw out his full power despite his passive nature.

Sure. But Goku can motivate Gohan, Gohan can draw out his full power AND Goku can give Gohan power ALL at the same time. There's not a single contradiction. Mindblowing, right?

 

[Nullflowerblush]

Secondly, we do NOT see Frieza during their fight.

Bruises carry over from the spirit onto the body?

 

[omegabronic]

Son Goku (DBS Manga): Limited Fear Manipulation or Social Influencing (Instilled fear in Moro with his presence alone)
Note: Moro could not sense this type of God Ki.

Where's the limitation for this to be "limited"?

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

I believe here Frieza was supposed to be somewhat physical, like as if he had maintained his body like Goku did. After all, Frieza is taken back to the living world just as he is, so if he were immaterial he should have been such until the moment he was brought back to life,


Goku's appearance seems more figurative than else, as in giving the spectator an idea and not his actually appearing as a hologram. The part about giving him power refers to Goku motivating Gohan to push himself beyond, rather than an actual trnasfering of energy.


Half of these are gags and the rest is just graphical compromises to not always draw the same pointless bruises. This also goes against one of our policies for regeneration:
Instances of characters being wounded and inexplicably recovering off-screen should not be taken as evidence of regeneration unless supported by further context. This is due to reasons ranging from the possibility of off-screen treatment to continuity errors. See this thread for reference


The first is just further demonstration of his ESP, he still needs to lock on ki signatures, it's range feat at most. The latter works for clairvoyance.


Meh, this just looks like an imprecision to me, like that part in AoT where he commander speaks to his soldiers from a 50 meters tall wall and they can hear him just fine at ground level.


I can see SI for the eerie aura of stillness and Moro's instinctive reaction, but Fear manipulation is a whole different matter,

Pretty much agree with this post

 

[Fyodol_Empyrean]

Null makes sense.

 

[RedReaper616]

1) It should be noted that Baba (presumably) specifically brought Frieza back via the same thing she did with Goku in the Buu Saga, which allowed him to keep the physical body he was blessed with by his good deeds and bring into the real world. Thus—Yes—Frieza was physical.

HOWEVER, I think Ki should have NPI anyway, because you can use it to affect Souls. Vegeta specifically uses his control over Spirit (Ki) to affect the exact same thing in Moro, which is directly stated to be Souls (Moro’s energy is that of countless screaming souls/Souls given back to the Namekians). With this in mind, I think it’s pretty clear that the NPI exists. Just not from punching Frieza.

2) We’ve had the Father-Son convo so many times. In my opinion it’s just vastly more likely the “power” Goku gave him was literal, but only insofar in the fact that literally cheering people on will strengthen that person via their own mental state. (Which Gohan’s power is heavily reliant on anyway.) Genki, Yuki, Shoki, all that jazz. (Refer to the Ki Manip page for deeper scans/a literal Toriyama interv on this.) Making it still literally and only Gohan’s power. (Drawn from his own passive nature and the goodwill of his father he looked up to and wanted said emotions from.)

(EDIT: Which, as Null said, is incredibly consistent with Gohan’s character arc.)

 

[Ednaxel2]

i agree with all of RedReaper’s points

 

[BOEGVELD]

Bruises carry over from the spirit onto the body?

Apparently. Discussing a detail we have no real information about, while ignoring the information we do have, is not a good argument btw.

 

[BOEGVELD]

Thus—Yes—Frieza was physical.

The point is that the fight was before he was even brought back.

Making it still literally and only Gohan’s power. (Drawn from his own passive nature and the goodwill of his father he looked up to and wanted said emotions from.)

Both can be true at the same time. Statements like "Goku gave his power to Gohan" are impossible to be interpreted as Goku simply encouraging Gohan.

 

[omegabronic]

Apparently. Discussing a detail we have no real information about, while ignoring the information we do have, is not a good argument btw.

Do we even know they fought while Freeza was only a soul?

 

[Nullflowerblush]

or that frieza even became a soul given we see his and his subordinates physical body multiple times