Ultraman Ace vs Pheromosa

ALTERNATE TITLE: THE FOREIGNER ULTRA-TERRESIAL LIFEFORM ENCOUNTER ​

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Well, looks like i'm going to popularized the Ultra's matches albeit not in large wave as Kamen Riders, but it will sure worth of try lel
Tier 3-A (and High 3-A) is pretty hard to find a MU with, it's either stomp or be stomped, and there's low amount of balanced 3-A/High 3-A chars, but thankfully my skill for the MU wouldn't fail as long as i tried

And yeah, Ultraman vs Pokemon (Ultra Beast at least) is a MU that i found that might have a potential to be good, and yes as you can see, i'll pick the best waifu Pheromosa as in the past i wanted to used her often before the tier 3 upgrade
In other hand, i'll go with Orb as he's my fave and a good pick for, hopefully this battle turned out be good, tho the Ultramans multiplier can be a problem, we'll see

EDIT: Sadly Orb scaling is a bit too much, don't worry however! I still have some alternative here, i'm going to use the Ultra Warriors in the lower scaling
And it's also one of my fave as well, the M78 Swiss Army Knife Warrior that being too bloodthirsty for mutilating any of his poor heartless super-beast hunt
Remind me that i also planning to make plenty of Ace matches if i get some of an MU for him, anyway....
Let's get to the battle!

Summary would be added later

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• High 3-A for both and this is Ace at the end of Galaxy Crisis Era Key
• Speed are equalized
• Both are in-characters
• Battle took in: The NASA Base Operation City in the Moon
• 
• Starting Distance: 50 Meters
• Win via anything!!
• The Lissome Beauty: 0
• The Mutilator Prince: 0
• Inconclusive: 0

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VS

​

 

[Mr.Cutlery]

Like usual, due to the verse having little active-at-all-times supporters, I'll just start first.

Okay, crap, Pre-CI Orb scales massively above 6000x baseline, though I suppose as usual with Pokemon, this might be mitigated by the numerous amplifications and reductions that Pheromosa can do, though I'm not sure how well that might actually do especially considering I don't know where exactly she sits in her chain.

How does her precognition work? Spatial Manip too, for that matter. If her precognition capability is a limited type, then Orb might be able to counteract that as he's faced with a form of precognition as well, and was able to turn the foreseen events around. However, it did involve a third party so I might need to look into that episode again extensively.

Hmm...

And which form does Orb start with again?

 

[Imaginym]

Like usual, due to the verse having little active-at-all-times supporters, I'll just start first.

Okay, crap, Pre-CI Orb scales massively above 6000x baseline, though I suppose as usual with Pokemon, this might be mitigated by the numerous amplifications and reductions that Pheromosa can do, though I'm not sure how well that might actually do especially considering I don't know where exactly she sits in her chain.

How does her precognition work? Spatial Manip too, for that matter. If her precognition capability is a limited type, then Orb might be able to counteract that as he's faced with a form of precognition as well, and was able to turn the foreseen events around. However, it did involve a third party so I might need to look into that episode again extensively.

Hmm...

And which form does Orb start with again?

I don't have all the answers to your questions that I'd like to have at the moment, but a couple of things that come to mind:

1. Pheromosa is not known to be a "she". In game mechanics, its gender ratio does not include males nor females, & the Japanese for the term for this gender ratio translates more accurately to "Unknown, uncertain", etc.; It's not known to be male, female, nor genderless, it's unknown-gendered, which text in manuals reflect.
So the running roach might be female but we don't know if it is or if it even can be.
This is the case for all "Genderless" (Correctly referred to as "Gender Unknown" Pokemon.), AFAIK.
This is likely why our profile lists Pheromosa's gender as "Unknown". Sorry for any bother about this trite, trivial matter.

2. I'm not sure what the Spatial Manipulation is for.
I'm trying to figure out why Pheromosa has Spatial Manipulation on its profile, & other than that, my best guess is something to do with Ultra Wormholes, but its profile seems to lack Portal Creation.


3. Precognition is also a strange ability on Pheromosa's profile. Normally, it'd be for Detect (Reasonable, as it's a Fighting type move for evasion .) or Future Sight (Unreasonable, it's a Psychic move about foreseeing an attack.), but Pheromosa doesn't actually learn either of those, so I suspect the suspects are 1 or more of:

A. Quick Guard: A barrier creation technique that blocks damaging Priority moves, such as Quick Attack, Extreme Speed, Accelerock, etc.; Moves that go before other moves in gameplay almost always do so through a higher "Priority" value, & "priority moves" is what Quick Guard's in-game description mentions.
B. Feint: As its description says: "An attack that hits a foe using Protect or Detect. It also lifts the effects of those moves.". It's a damaging priority move (Most aren't Precognition, though.), & if Detect is still considered Precognition, that may help Detect's case.
(Note that Feint's protection negating effect only applies to the instance(s) that Feint use went through; If other attacks, such as from allies, were to go to the target, they'd ignore the protection if Feint broke that instance, but not for any instances Feint didn't break.)
C. Me First: Its most recent in-game description (In games where it was useable.) says "The user cuts ahead of the target to copy and use the target’s intended move with greater power. This move fails if it isn’t used first.", although I can't recall if we list Me First as Precognition or not. Anyway, the effect of Me First, in gameplay is, if the user is faster than the target, & the target uses an attacking move, Me First makes the user use the target's move with a 50% power boost to that move.

Looking at the profiles:

Pheromosa:
At least Galaxy level, likely High Universe level (Comparable to Nihilego. Along with the other Ultra Beasts, it threatened Alola to the point where 50% Zygarde saw fit to leave Kalos and come to Alola)
Nihilego:
At least Galaxy level, likely High Universe level (Lusamine could use its power to fight Dawn Wings Necrozma. Along with the other Ultra Beasts, it threatened Alola to the point where 50% Zygarde saw fit to leave Kalos and come to Alola)
Zygarde (50% form):
At least Galaxy level, likely High Universe level (Despite being weaker, could still manage to fight against Ultra Necrozma. Ultra Beasts threatened Alola to the point it saw fit to leave Kalos and come to Alola)
Necrozma:
At least Galaxy level, likely High Universe level (Absorbed all the light out of Ultra Space, a universe which is likely infinite in size due to it containing all the Ultra Wormholes) | At least Galaxy level, likely High Universe level (Has absorbed all of the light from Solgaleo or Lunala and has become much stronger) | At least Galaxy level, likely High Universe level (Immensely stronger than before. Provides light for Ultra Megalopolis and can provide the light for other worlds as well as steal it. Illuminated all of Ultra Space), higher with Photon Geyser (Was able to easily overpower Complete Zygarde with its Photon Geyser)

So it sounds like Pheromosa is comparable to a Nihilego (While fused with Lusamine, but IDK if that's relevant to the scaling chain.), could fight Dawn Wings Necrozma, albeit in what seems to be a losing battle, with the UBs' presence making 50% Zygarde show up & fight against Ultra Necrozma, with base Necrozma having the feat that seems to be the basis for the scaling chain:

Necrozoma: Absorbing the light of the universe

vsbattles.fandom.com

Said calc seems to be a bit controversial in the comments, & IDK how that calc nor its yield reflect on the scaling chain, but hopefully that helps.

If it's baseline High 3-A for base Necrozma, & a higher form of that is what Nihilego (Which Pheromosa is comparable to.) downscales from, because all the light in a likely infinite universe, then.... Well, I guess Pheromosa is slightly above or below baseline? Unsure.

I am not the most knowledgeable in Pokemon's scaling chains.

 

[theultimate5105]

Pheromosa scales to 2x baseline (Ultra Beasts scale to Dusk Mane Necrozma which is 2x base Necrozma)
Spatial Manipulation is ultra wormholes (and regular Pokemon space-time manipulation)

 

[Imaginym]

Pheromosa scales to 2x baseline (Ultra Beasts scale to Dusk Mane Necrozma which is 2x base Necrozma)

I assume 2x in the absence of other multipliers?

Spatial Manipulation is ultra wormholes (and regular Pokemon space-time manipulation)

Why no Portal Creation for Pheromosa being able to make Ultra Wormholes?
Also, the regular Pokemon space-time manipulation revision thingy was applied? Link? Why doesn't it have a justification on the profile?!

Sorry for all the questions.

 

[theultimate5105]

I assume 2x in the absence of other multipliers?

Yeah since it is 2 High 3-As adding their powers together

Why no Portal Creation for Pheromosa being able to make Ultra Wormholes?

I have no idea

Also, the regular Pokemon space-time manipulation revision thingy was applied? Link? Why doesn't it have a justification on the profile?!

not really applied but fully accepted so I just treat it as if It is (it doesn’t make much of a difference and this happens all the time with huge verses)

Sorry for all the questions.

It’s fine

 

[Mr.Cutlery]

I honestly forgot that Pokemon has space-time manip for... is it also imbued into their normal attacks? Assuming so, that's definitely gonna troublesome for Orb.

Though then again, it looks like he's way too far ahead since we're now looking at 6000x vs 2x baseline, and I'm not sure how Pheromosa's stats amp or reduct can help it in this particular instance.

And lmao at the seemingly not-applied revisions. Imagine a small verse like Ultra's.

 

[Imaginym]

I honestly forgot that Pokemon has space-time manip for... is it also imbued into their normal attacks? Assuming so, that's definitely gonna troublesome for Orb.

Though then again, it looks like he's way too far ahead since we're now looking at 6000x vs 2x baseline, and I'm not sure how Pheromosa's stats amp or reduct can help it in this particular instance.

I'm almost certain it can't.
Pheromosa's passive is Beast Boost, which boosts its "highest stat" by 1 stage... per KO made when it KOs with a damaging move; Meaning unless there's fodder around, Beast Boost ain't gonna help beat Orb. Also, at least in gameplay, Pokemon stat stages don't go above +6, where each +1 (Above 0, AKA the unmodified base for stat stages.) is 50% of the base.

Stat modifier

bulbapedia.bulbagarden.net

So for example, if Pheromosa's Speed had an arbitrary value of 420, +1 would add 210 (630 total.), +2 would add another 210 (840), & so on & so forth; At the maximum of +6, the stats would be at 4x their base value.

Statistics Reduction for Pokemon, typically goes no lower than -6, which is 25% of the base value, with each stage's below 0 having diminishing returns as a reduction: -1 is 66.6666~7% of base, -2 is 50% of base, etc.
For Pokemon Statistics Reduction to non-Pokemon, it's assumed that the reduction limit doesn't apply to non-Pokemon (They're not from the 'verse with that system/rules.), & thus, can be used indefinitely.

The only exception is for Accuracy & Evasion, which have maximums of 300% & minimums of 33.33~%.

(Although, there's the obvious issue that most Pokemon can't afford to stand around spam stat reduction/modification, especially not early, & using it isn't always in-character, either.)


As a result, Beast Boost here is probably both complicated & useless here. (& itself, both ignores, & is limited by stat stages.)

Beast Boost (Ability)

bulbapedia.bulbagarden.net

Pheromosa's Statistics Modification seem to be:

Leer: An intimidating look with sharp eyes to reduce foe's Defense. I'm sure you can guess the inherent limitations.
Agility: Lightens the user's body to move faster. (No actual weight reduction effect, it's just +2 Stages of Speed. Funnily enough unlike the later-introduced Autotomize, which does the same thing, but actually reduces weight. Though Pheromosa doesn't learn Autotomize.)
Speed Swap: Swaps speed with the target. Pheromosa is used to being faster than its foes, being its naturally very fast & is rather active; In a Speed Equalized match, unless it notices the foe is already faster, I doubt it'd do this, at the very least, not before trying Agility.
Lunge: A physical attack that reduces the foe's physical Attack stat by 1 stage... if it hits.
Quiver Dance: "Lightly performs a beautiful, mystic dance" that raises the user's Speed, Special Defense, & Special Attack all by 1 stage, all at once. Unfortunately for Pheromosa, while Special/non-physical Defense might be helpful, Pheromosa's only Special Attacks are Bug Buzz, Swift, & Silver Wind, which are of dubious likeliness to use. I'm unsure at least. (Real cockroaches hiss at least....)
Silver Wind: The foe is attacked by silver dust/powdery scales blown by wind. Has a 10% chance of raising the user's Attack, Defense, Special Attack, Special Defense & Speed by 1 stage, but this presumably requires the move to hit.
Bug Buzz: If it hits, has a 10% chance of lowering the victim's stat by stage.
Rapid Spin: If it hits, raises the user's Speed by 1 stage. (Although, arguably, maybe it should raise Speed without hitting in lore??)
Bounce: Bounces up high, then drops on the target on the second turn. Has a 30% chance to cause Paralysis on hit, which, in older games, reduces the victim's speed by 75%, & in newer games, by only 50% instead. Paralysis also leaves the victim with a 25% chance of being unable to act for 1 "turn", however long that is in a Versus Match. (1 action? IDK.) Regardless, far from reliable enough to be relevant here.

Pheromosa's Pokedex entries give it most of its characterization:

Sun	One of the dangerous Ultra Beasts, it has been spotted running across the land at terrific speeds.
Moon	One of the Ultra Beasts. It refuses to touch anything, perhaps because it senses some uncleanness in this world.

The anime Pheromosa's characterization, IMHO, is dubious to use; It showed up for 1 episode, tried to steal Z Crystals, got beaten by Anime Bewear, & was captured/defeated & returned to Ultra Space in that same debut episode, & doesn't seem to have any moves used listed according to Bulbapedia.)
When did it fight, here's how Bulbapedia described it:

Spoiler: Bulbapedia's summary of anime Pheromosa's fight

Bewear notices Meowth trapped in the glue and Team Rocket cowering among the rocks, prompting her to confront Pheromosa. The two Fighting types engage in a battle of strengths. Bewear takes Pheromosa by surprise after she knocks it into a cliff. She then corners Pheromosa, though the Ultra Beast is not giving up. Pheromosa attempts to confuse its opponent with its speed, but the tactic fails as Bewear delivers a powerful uppercut. Pheromosa hits the ground and the stolen Z-Crystals fall all around it. Bewear picks up Team Rocket's Z-Crystals, Meowth, and the others before fleeing the scene. As the Ultra Guardians are momentarily perplexed by Bewear's strength, Rotom urges Ash to make the catch, and with Pheromosa knocked out, the Beast Ball successfully captures it. The Ultra Guardians perform their victory pose, although Kiawe is quick to remind them that Bewear is really the one to thank, depressing Ash. Later, Burnet arrives and opens up an Ultra Wormhole with a machine. Ash then calls Pheromosa out. Displeased about being caught, it sticks out its tongue as it returns to Ultra Space. The Ultra Wormhole closes over and Rotom officially declares the Ultra Guardians' mission complete.

So yeah. In character behaviour is run around very fast, hates touching anything, supposedly for sensing "uncleanness" in it. It's noted to "possess great power", arguably reflected in its (irrelevant here.) high offensive & speed stats in-game, & the anime depicting it fighting mostly physically.... Or that's just because it's an Ultra Beast & they're strong.

So if it hates touching stuff, it MIGHT prefer ranged attacks, since kicking something still means "touching" it, but the anime shows it as going mostly physical.


Either way, it likely doesn't have the means nor motive to stat boost to match a ~3000x (If Pheromosa is roughly 2x baseline.) statistics difference against it.

And lmao at the seemingly not-applied revisions. Imagine a small verse like Ultra's.

Oof.

But yeah, IDK if non-Speed Stats Equalized is valid outside of Fun & Games, but as is this is a mismatch/stat stomp, & invalid for voting.
Pheromosa can set up for all the time in the world it wants, the moment its glass cannon twig-bodied self gets hit once, it'll STILL get squashed like the literal cockroach it is here.

 

[Kisaragi_Megumi]

Don't worry, i can change it to the Showa Ultra's (like Ace) or any of chars that being in lower scaling in that series
But i need Cult answer first before switching

 

[Mr.Cutlery]

It's probably better to switch it out to someone who sits at a lower scale in the chain, yes.

 

[Kisaragi_Megumi]

It's probably better to switch it out to someone who sits at a lower scale in the chain, yes.

Any suggestion? Mine was Ace but i'm not confident yet lel

 

[Peter1129]

Ace should be fine as long as you use him at the end of the Galaxy Crisis Era as scaling wise

Rei's EX Gomora 3x> Rei's Base Gomora <2x Rei's Reionic Burst Gomora > Armored Meflias (RB) = Armored Darkness = Alien Empera > Juda = Baseline High 3-A

End of Galaxy Crisis Era Ultra Brothers ≈ Darklops Zero >> Darklops Zero w/ Tector Gear ≈ Pre-Belial Galactic Empire Base Zero > Mecha Gomora = Reimon's EX Gomora >> Rei's EX Gomora > 1.5x Baseline High 3-A

 

[Kisaragi_Megumi]

And done, Ace has entered the battle after the switch!

We can continue now

 

[Imaginym]

Ace should be fine as long as you use him at the end of the Galaxy Crisis Era as scaling wise

Rei's EX Gomora 3x> Rei's Base Gomora <2x Rei's Reionic Burst Gomora > Armored Meflias (RB) = Armored Darkness = Alien Empera > Juda = Baseline High 3-A

End of Galaxy Crisis Era Ultra Brothers ≈ Darklops Zero >> Darklops Zero w/ Tector Gear ≈ Pre-Belial Galactic Empire Base Zero > Mecha Gomora = Reimon's EX Gomora >> Rei's EX Gomora > 1.5x Baseline High 3-A

Forgive my dumb question, but IDK Ultraman. Where is "Ace" on this chain?

 

[Peter1129]

He’s a member of the Ultra Brothers so all the way at the top of the 1.5x Baseline High 3-A scaling chain

So Ace essentially capable of stomping characters that stomps characters that are stronger than 1.5x Baseline High 3-A

 

[Mr.Cutlery]

Alright, since we're now using Ace... what now?

He's not legitimately strong enough to be in danger of stats-exchange stuffs, and some of the actual stats reduction stuff Phero can do seems avoidable by defending and Ace can either use a barrier, deflect with his sword, counter with a technique of his own.

And seeing as Pheromosa is notably stronger, Ace is more likely to spam attacks as seen in the few times he's appeared after his own series. And with the addition of the latest spin-off, he's still very much prone to using old one-time abilities, and those were on goons. And since this is one on one with an opponent of similar stats, it's either Pheromosa starts out with the good shizz which seems unlikely going by Imaginym's assessment, or Ace does what Ace does best.

 

[Imaginym]

Alright, since we're now using Ace... what now?

He's not legitimately strong enough to be in danger of stats-exchange stuffs, and some of the actual stats reduction stuff Phero can do seems avoidable by defending and Ace can either use a barrier, deflect with his sword, counter with a technique of his own.

By defending, do you mean blocking, or evading?

And seeing as Pheromosa is notably stronger, Ace is more likely to spam attacks as seen in the few times he's appeared after his own series.

He'd spam because he knows Pheromosa is stronger?

And with the addition of the latest spin-off, he's still very much prone to using old one-time abilities, and those were on goons. And since this is one on one with an opponent of similar stats, it's either Pheromosa starts out with the good shizz which seems unlikely going by Imaginym's assessment, or Ace does what Ace does best.

Which do you think are the "good shizz" & which are not?

 

[Mr.Cutlery]

Sorry if this came outta left field but I felt shellshocked when you returned the questions to me due to Discord experiences.

Anyway,

1.
Usually blocking is how they do it, and it's as I detailed there, Ace can use a barrier or a weapon. Though yes, evading is also an option. He's pretty experienced so he's unlikely to let an attack hit him first if he can help it.

2.
There is that, as he's not only touted as a master of beam attacks, he's also established to utilize them whenever possible, especially if the opponent were to have some level of superiority even if slight.

3.
I think even if it's not in-character for Pheromosa to use it, it still has an unquestionable advantage if it ever manages to score hits with the Status Effects or Reduction stuffs.

But okay, I just re-read some stuff, thank goodness I don't try to answer immediately or I wouldn't have caught that. Looks like Pheromosa might use ranged attacks instead, which may even the field a bit, and potentially take down Ace if it manages to outpace him somehow.

Hmm, not very sure. Though I suppose I can at least provide some in-character fighting style for Ace to let others weigh their opinions on how he can compare against Pheromosa in thay case.

 

[Imaginym]

Sorry if this came outta left field but I felt shellshocked when you returned the questions to me due to Discord experiences.

Anyway,

1.
Usually blocking is how they do it, and it's as I detailed there, Ace can use a barrier or a weapon. Though yes, evading is also an option. He's pretty experienced so he's unlikely to let an attack hit him first if he can help it.

2.
There is that, as he's not only touted as a master of beam attacks, he's also established to utilize them whenever possible, especially if the opponent were to have some level of superiority even if slight.

Yes, but how/why would he know Pheromosa is stronger than him? At least, before any initial like, clash of blows or such?
Does he have some kind of Information Analysis ability? A scouter/scanner thing? No offense meant.

3.
I think even if it's not in-character for Pheromosa to use it, it still has an unquestionable advantage if it ever manages to score hits with the Status Effects or Reduction stuffs.

Could be.
Bug Buzz, maybe Silver Wind, are the most likely moves it might use that involve Statistics Modification, on the basis of not wanting to touch "unclean" things, but both those have only a 10% chance.

But okay, I just re-read some stuff, thank goodness I don't try to answer immediately or I wouldn't have caught that. Looks like Pheromosa might use ranged attacks instead, which may even the field a bit, and potentially take down Ace if it manages to outpace him somehow.

Hmm, not very sure. Though I suppose I can at least provide some in-character fighting style for Ace to let others weigh their opinions on how he can compare against Pheromosa in thay case.

If we go by its anime characterization of more physically leaning, an earlier mentioned move may be concerning: Feint.
"This attack hits a target using a move such as Protect or Detect. This also lifts the effects of those moves."

Since that move goes through barriers (Like Protect & Detect) in-game. It also nullifies that instance of barrier it ignores (In-game, Protect & Detect cease working against other moves for the remainder of the turn after Feint hits through them, but Pokemon only use 1 move per "turn", so this isn't that relevant 1vs1, seemingly.) , so Ultraman Ace would have to re-use his barrier creation ability if he wanted its protection again.

Being able to punch through his barrier with 1 move might be relevant. It's a priority move as well, so it's fast, so Pheromosa might like that. But if it's only a frontal barrier, there may be other options.

Bug Buzz might hit around it, being sound-based.

There's also if Pheromosa might lead with Agility in a Speed Equalized match, since its IC behaviour is running around a lot very fast (Heck, even in the anime, 1 of its opening tactics against Bewear was to run circles around it to try to confuse it.), it might want to be faster to do so.

Swift is a neat ranged attack.
"Star-shaped rays that never miss are fired at all foes in battle."
In-game, its effects are never missing (Ignoring accuracy & evasion checks, mechanically.) & hitting all foes in multi-battles.
I'm not sure about the main series anime, but the official web series Anime, Pokemon Origins, it portrays the stars as following the opponent if they try to evade.
A frontal barrier would make Swift coming at Ace's front negligible unless stat differences matter, but it may matter more if Pheromosa can get aside of or behind Ace, such as by becoming faster.

There's also the chance it could use Me First if it's faster, to copy a move of Ace's before he uses it, with the copy version Pheromosa uses having a 50% boost in power. This might be unexpected, & devastating.

BTW, why doesn't Ace have Large Size on his profile if he has Tens of meters range physically?
Presuming he's bigger-than-building size like in the video, this matchup features a hilarious size difference.

Pheromosa's height is 1.8 meters/5'11". Not much bigger than a grown man.

From Ace's perspective (& with how Pheromosa's "hair" being held out at length by air/force as it runs so fast.), since he dwarfs Pheromosa much as a human does an insect, this really would resemble a human vs a cockroach, even proportionally!

....Though, given the statistics difference & some of Pheromosa's options (Range, ignoring barriers with Feint, small chances of stat-dropping, copying with stronger moves, speed boosting.), I think the roach winning is believable, here, as silly as that is. Mind you, not a vote.
It may also be difficult to track, given it'd be just as fast, if not faster, yet far smaller compared to the size I presume for Ultraman & its typical foes.

I'd rather hear what others think.

 

[Mr.Cutlery]

Ultras are indeed capable of sensing power levels, as it's like one of the most basic levels to their extrasensory ability.

Yeah, Feint does sound very useful, though I'd say considering the video, a broken barrier or weapon wouldn't be much against Ace as he repeatedly discarded his own barriers and when his sword broke he closed the gap first, and when considering Ultras don't really use barriers much against physical strikes it doesn't seem like a hit it'd be able to score frequently.

Tackling Swift first, homing attacks also aren't out of the table as part of his experience. Normally they'd be shown to simply avoid it until it reaches a limit of sorts or well, he puts up a barrier, or even counter with his own projectiles. A comparatively green Ultra was able to come up with a tactic to counter heat seeking missiles, so Ace having a truck load more of ranged attacks should be able to do more. Here's also an example of Ace in a situation where he avoids homing attacks... uh, to 2:34 at crispy 240p quality because it's hard being an Ultra fan.

Me First might be troublesome. Combining this one with the case of the size difference, Ultras haven't much fought with smaller creatures, though from little showings they don't have much trouble, as tracking them seems just as easy as they do on opponents of equal size. And Large Size should fall under Ultra Physiology, by the way.

And now for discussion of Agility. If Pheromosa really can somehow run circles around Ace, there's every likeliness that he'd go for a Stop Flash. A telekinesis-based paralysis ability that's basically a standard skill for an Ultra of his grade. He really only needs a simple gesture of closing his arms together normally, and the technique hits just after, and he's used this against someone of no significant statistic superiority against him.

But well, like you, I'm also not voting yet because yeah, there's still every bit of chance Pheromosa can turn this around.

 

[Imaginym]

Ultras are indeed capable of sensing power levels, as it's like one of the most basic levels to their extrasensory ability.

Yeah, Feint does sound very useful, though I'd say considering the video, a broken barrier or weapon wouldn't be much against Ace as he repeatedly discarded his own barriers and when his sword broke he closed the gap first, and when considering Ultras don't really use barriers much against physical strikes it doesn't seem like a hit it'd be able to score frequently.

It may be notable that Feint only works against foes using a barrier in its debut generation of games (Gen 4) & can do damage regardless if there was a barrier or not in every game afterwards.

And now for discussion of Agility. If Pheromosa really can somehow run circles around Ace, there's every likeliness that he'd go for a Stop Flash. A telekinesis-based paralysis ability that's basically a standard skill for an Ultra of his grade. He really only needs a simple gesture of closing his arms together normally, and the technique hits just after, and he's used this against someone of no significant statistic superiority against him.

If this is Telekinesis-based, it may be based on a type of Lifting Strength, no?
Telekinesis is a means of attack for Psychic-type Pokemon moves. (Ex: Confusion (the move) & Psychic (the move) are weak, & strong telekinetic attacks according to their descriptions.)
I don't know why Pheromosa's LS is Unknown when it's comparable to Nihilego, which has a listed LS.

Does a Stop Flash's telekinetic hold last indefinitely? To what extent is the restrained victim able or unable to act?

But well, like you, I'm also not voting yet because yeah, there's still every bit of chance Pheromosa can turn this around.

I appreciate your patience as well as your confidence in Pheromosa's side, & I can't readily say that I think Ace would be easily overcome. Thanks.

 

[Mr.Cutlery]

Ah, so it's really just an extra flavor to the attack in bypassing shields, which I should've already expected. I don't know why but I get tunnel-visioned into an attack's properties if it gets brought up sometimes. Well, at least I already made clear that Ace can still avoid it so it looks like it might come to physical stats if Ace doesn't immediately see that agility advantage.

Though I'm also questioning why I've already conceded to agility difference being a full-on game changer as Ultras are also naturally acrobatic, typically employing gymnastics while also jumping around like it's a Wuxia.

And for Stop Flash? I'm not sure how telekinesis actually works in the verse as there hasn't been much distinction or in-depth exploration of the technique so I'm not sure if it's fully LS or straight up ignores it. I mean, you have a scientist Ultra using TK to push back a roughly mountain-sized rock whereas the actual combat Ultras who've actually employed it to toss around targets never showed something on that scale. Though this kind of makes sense as there are literal racial advantages to Ace's type of Ultras.

And on its duration, Ultras typically don't stick around to find out as Ace immediately went on to melt down the one target he used it on.

And I mean hey, the least I could do as someone who doesn't frequently debate is to make it as less of a headache as possible for my opposition too.

 

[Imaginym]

Ah, so it's really just an extra flavor to the attack in bypassing shields, which I should've already expected. I don't know why but I get tunnel-visioned into an attack's properties if it gets brought up sometimes. Well, at least I already made clear that Ace can still avoid it so it looks like it might come to physical stats if Ace doesn't immediately see that agility advantage.

In terms of physical stats, I'm not entirely sure what Ace will do.
Pheromosa might do Leer (An intimidating glare that lowers DEF.) if it's feeling particularly contemptuous or superior.

For its physical attacks (Everything that uses Attack rather than Special Attack in Pokemon terms.), Pheromosa does almost everything with its legs.
Without its legs, it has Lunge.
"The user makes a lunge at the target, attacking with full force. This also lowers the target’s Attack stat."
As well as Rapid Spin, Bug Bite, & the arguable case of Bounce, & the aforementioned case of Feint.

With its legs it has: Low Kick (Deals more damage , Double Kick, Triple Kick, Jump Kick, High Jump Kick, & Stomp.
So in melee combat, its legs are going to be doing most of the... uhhh... legwork.

In order:
Low Kick: "A powerful low kick that makes the target fall over. The heavier the target, the greater the move’s power." (In gameplay, it varies from 20 to 120 base power. IDK how we account for that. May be an unknown difference in power. Also, in Generations 1 & 2, it was a 50 Base Power, 90% Accuracy move with a 30% chance to cause flinching. Mind, in Pokemon's game mechanics, flinching only occurs if it would before the victim would make their move that turn. But I doubt we account for Low Kick's Gen 1 & 2 version, especially for a Pokemon introduced in Gen 7.)
Double Kick: "The target is quickly kicked twice in succession using both feet."
Triple Kick: "A consecutive three-kick attack that becomes more powerful with each successive hit." (Interestingly, at least in game mechanics, Triple Hit behaves uniquely for a multi-hit move, with each hit checking if it missed &/or crit successfully, but I'm pretty sure separate hits behaving separately is just game mechanics imitating reality. The 3 hits have base powers of 10, 20 & 30, respectively.)
Jump Kick: "The user jumps up high, then strikes with a kick. If the kick misses, the user hurts itself."
High Jump Kick: "The foe is attacked with a knee kick from a jump. If it misses, the user is hurt instead." (Jump Kick & High Jump Kick are almost identical, except in gameplay, HJK has more power & less accuracy & Power Points (PP. How many times a move can be used in gameplay.). The crash damage varies by generation, IIRC. Seemingly more mechanics imitating reality, although I do wonder if a High 3-A can slam itself hard enough into a wall to hurt itself.)
Stomp: "The foe is stomped with a big foot. It may make the foe flinch." (30% chance to flinch the victim. Weird that a cockroach can learn this, & Pheromosa is kind of in the inverse of the situation to do that here, lol. Because legs, I guess? Has a weird history with Minimize; As of Gen 6, if the target has used Minimize, Stomp ignores accuracy checks to always hit &, as of Gen 2 has its damage doubled, with Gen 4 doubling base power instead, against a Minimized target.)

Though I'm also questioning why I've already conceded to agility difference being a full-on game changer as Ultras are also naturally acrobatic, typically employing gymnastics while also jumping around like it's a Wuxia.

Admittedly, having the Acrobatics ability does not necessarily mean a Higher Travel, Combat or Reaction Speed.

And for Stop Flash? I'm not sure how telekinesis actually works in the verse as there hasn't been much distinction or in-depth exploration of the technique so I'm not sure if it's fully LS or straight up ignores it. I mean, you have a scientist Ultra using TK to push back a roughly mountain-sized rock whereas the actual combat Ultras who've actually employed it to toss around targets never showed something on that scale. Though this kind of makes sense as there are literal racial advantages to Ace's type of Ultras.

And on its duration, Ultras typically don't stick around to find out as Ace immediately went on to melt down the one target he used it on.

So Ace has used it once then immediately melted down his restrained target?

And I mean hey, the least I could do as someone who doesn't frequently debate is to make it as less of a headache as possible for my opposition too.

Thanks!

 

[Kisaragi_Megumi]

Me First might be troublesome. Combining this one with the case of the size difference, Ultras haven't much fought with smaller creatures, though from little showings they don't have much trouble, as tracking them seems just as easy as they do on opponents of equal size. And Large Size should fall under Ultra Physiology, by the way

Does the whole Juggler thing that happened in Orb Origin the First counted?

 

[Imaginym]

Does the whole Juggler thing that happened in Orb Origin the First counted?

I'm curious about the context. Care to share, please?

 

[Kisaragi_Megumi]

I'm curious about the context. Care to share, please?

Basically Juggler is a small human-like alien that can scratch up an Ultra (Orb)
But i need a confirmation from Cult first

 

[Mr.Cutlery]

Basically Pheromosa, going by in-character behavior, would prefer to use the stats it has superior advantage on while perhaps adding Leer on to it. I'll let others judge on whether Ace fully passes the bar but he's faced against a monster who could passively emit a sound that causes weakness, preventing them from drawing strength at all, and even resists a stronger version of it later. So there's a chance Leer may not work as effectively, especially considering he trained that resistance through his human host who has considerably lesser stats in general.

And yeag, I don't actually assign Acrobatics as granting superior speed in any capacity, but I do see it as helping them weave around a battlefield better so if skills can't come in too handy despite the equality in stats, Acrobatics could be tie-breaking in some instances

Yeah, Ace and like the rest of his brothers except maybe a couple are pretty much bordering on psychopathic so there's little chance of finding out the limits of their ability because there would be no opponent to find out with.

Does the whole Juggler thing that happened in Orb Origin the First counted?

And... this is pretty much what I was hinging on with those few showings, yeah. There is also the one instance in Gaia episode 18 where after losing track of Agul, he just pulls up on Gaia at max size and decks him down to the ground.

Additionally, the Small Bezelbs should also count, and Orb by that point is still technically a rookie so however well he did against those, shouldn't be a problem when in Ace's case.

Extra info because I forgot:
Going off the first part of my assessment, Ace wouldn't have much trouble fighting against enemies that relies on a certain ability or gimmick, as this is what they're usually facing already. Though I'd say going by the versatility of Showa Ultras, there is a chance Ace goes for sizing up first in physical combat. Or if Pheromosa decides to zip around immediately, he might go for something ranged. All in all, despite everything, Ace really goes for either CQC first, or straight up ranged attacks which is more likely given his status and it helps him assess things more fairly thanks to being able to keep range, allowing him to employ which techniques to use.

 

[Kisaragi_Megumi]

So Ace has used it once then immediately melted down his restrained target?

Not only melting, he would immediately use one of brutal cutting beam as well
Here is some of his fight that ended melting and cutting his opponent after using Stop Flash:



The second video happened around 23:00 for him using Stop Flash

 

[Kisaragi_Megumi]

Bump!!

 

[Kisaragi_Megumi]

Bump!!

 

[Kisaragi_Megumi]

Bump!!

 

[Kisaragi_Megumi]

Bump!!

 

[Kisaragi_Megumi]

Bump!!

 

[Imaginym]

I do wonder if Pheromosa should or shouldn't be able to break out of Stop Flash via LS & then dodge his melting thing or such.

 

[Mr.Cutlery]

Do we usually assume LS comparison to the nearest peer or just ignore it when Unknown? How much is Pheromosa scalable to the Class Z of the others anyway?

Although if I had to add anything, it seems TK anything in Ultra has little basis on being LS, even if its results influences which class it ends up at. Like in the first ever series, the titular Ultraman fought a monster that was above his class and he still one-shotted it after using TK hax. But that's all I can say because I'm not sure how well it'll feed into this whole thing.

 

[Imaginym]

Do we usually assume LS comparison to the nearest peer or just ignore it when Unknown? How much is Pheromosa scalable to the Class Z of the others anyway?

Although if I had to add anything, it seems TK anything in Ultra has little basis on being LS, even if its results influences which class it ends up at. Like in the first ever series, the titular Ultraman fought a monster that was above his class and he still one-shotted it after using TK hax.

Unsure about how LS comparisons involving Unknowns work. Frankly, I still think it's weird Pheromosa's LS isn't scaled to other UBs.
He one shot it by using TK, or he one-shot it by using a non-TK attack after immobilizing it with TK?

But that's all I can say because I'm not sure how well it'll feed into this whole thing.

Fair.

 

[Mr.Cutlery]

It's a different Ultra entirely, but here. It should be noted the scene cuts off before everything happened, but the monster explodes just after it was flung away. Also adding that Ace won't do remote detonation like that, as it seems to be a last-ditch effort.

 

[Kisaragi_Megumi]

Bump!!

 

[Kisaragi_Megumi]

Bump!!

 

[Kisaragi_Megumi]

Bump!!